That was written before the game. So in DaCosta's 0 minutes this season, he failed to dominate.
Tim Murray made the comment on radio here that one of the biggest surprises out of camp was Pageau, who just refuses to take a back seat. He also indicated it was a surprise that DaCosta did not dominate when he had the chance. He was probably out of shape, not sure. It was not a real dis at DaCosta, rather I am in agreement that Pageau has been a good surprise so early into the season. Pageau got the 1C slot over DaCosta based on performance, not because of injury.
I'm going to try and snag tickets next time Calgary comes through Vancouver.
I wish the Sens would draft more from the WHL.. I'd have more reasons to catch some Giants games.
I lived in Vancouver when Andrej Meszaros played his one year with the Giants. It was pretty cool to be able to go to see him regularly play as a junior. I went to about 15 games that year. Great times. Giants games are fun.
Caveat: if you haven't yet been to a Giants game, Pacific Coliseum has kind of been left to rot. When I went in 2005, it looked like they hadn't cleaned the place since the Canucks left.
***EDIT***
They probably cleaned it for the 2010 Olympics.
SEL-2 is equivalent to what... the ECHL? At the absolute maximum?
The league and that bad to be honest. In fact. It's really decent for being a 2nd league.
For example, Anze Kopitar so far has had 10 points in 9 games.
Oliver Ekman-Larsson managed to take the step to right into NHL from SEL-2. He had 27 points in 42 games. While 9 of them being goals. The league has developed alot since then. And Wikstrand has managed 7 goals, 9 points in 12 games.
I don't want to overhype it. But I'm saying SEL-2 is not as bad as it comes across.
N.A equivalent would be AHL
Russian equivalent would be MHL
Skills equivalent, that is another story.
I guess that's what counts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggen
The league and that bad to be honest. In fact. It's really decent for being a 2nd league.
For example, Anze Kopitar so far has had 10 points in 9 games.
Oliver Ekman-Larsson managed to take the step to right into NHL from SEL-2. He had 27 points in 42 games. While 9 of them being goals. The league has developed alot since then. And Wikstrand has managed 7 goals, 9 points in 12 games.
I don't want to overhype it. But I'm saying SEL-2 is not as bad as it comes across.
I just think Wikstrand is being overhyped. He wasn't particularly noticeable at the rookie camp, so the conclusion should be:
(a) SEL-2 is a pretty crap league, rather than;
(b) Wikstrand has improved substantially since June
Anyway I'm not surprised people are essentially concluding (b).
(b) Wikstrand has improved substantially since June
Anyway I'm not surprised people are essentially concluding (b).
Well this is logically sound if:
(a) You think development camp is a highly reliable setting to determine how good a prospect is.
Anyway, I'm surprised you're suggesting that. I think you might be suffering from the same bias those that think the WJC is the be-all-end-all just because it's the only time most fans get to see certain players.
I tend to trust the collective of Swedish posters we have here. When they are skeptical, they often turn out to have had reason to be (Rundblad comes to mind, no I haven't called him a bust). When they are decidedly enamored with a player (OEL, Landeskog come to mind) they often come out right.
So far the good words on Wikstrand are universal amongst Swedish fans it seems. He's considered the #1 Dman on an SEL2 team which is more than management could have been asking for.
I just think Wikstrand is being overhyped. He wasn't particularly noticeable at the rookie camp, so the conclusion should be:
(a) SEL-2 is a pretty crap league, rather than;
(b) Wikstrand has improved substantially since June
Anyway I'm not surprised people are essentially concluding (b).
I don't think that's correct at all. All we, fans living outside of Sweden with little access to SEL-2 games, can judge a player on is opinion of authority and statistical analysis. Right now, Wikstrand is receiving great praise from several users who watch Mora games. There was a claim that he was without a doubt the best defenseman on the team at this time, too. We can take that how we wish as we don't know how well people judge player talent or potential. However, we then look to the score sheet to see if there's a correlation. He's putting up big points. I don't think it's hard to say that he's doing very, very well right now.
To state that the SEL-2 is "crap" is dumb. It's not elite talent level by any means but I hardly think we should claim that there's no way Wikstrand's actually any good because he's playing in a junior league WHILE HE HIMSELF IS A JUNIOR.
People aren't penciling this guy into the NHL line-up in the next few seasons, but people are excited to hear great things about a 7th round pick that could, potentially, be a steal.
But it's funny that you're using the "he didn't impress me at rookie camp" argument. I'll take how he performs on the ice, in game, over how he looks in comparison to top prospects with, at times, several years of development ahead of him in his first training camp. It certainly feels like you're trying to discredit Wikstrand's play right now for the sake of discrediting his play.
I don't know if I would call Wikstrand overhyped. He's been doing surprisingly well for Mora and he has put up numbers that are unmatched historically, but I don't think I've seen anyone throw around anything ridiculous about him. At best I've seen people say that he'll be at the WJC and take the step to the SEL next year. Nobody has even mentioned an NHL future from what I've seen.
As long as he's looking more than a 7th rounder at this point, four months removed from the draft, we should be happy. And he definitely does. Is he the new Ekman-Larsson because he's been putting up some numbers in the same league? No.
(a) You think development camp is a highly reliable setting to determine how good a prospect is.
Anyway, I'm surprised you're suggesting that. I think you might be suffering from the same bias those that think the WJC is the be-all-end-all just because it's the only time most fans get to see certain players.
I tend to trust the collective of Swedish posters we have here. When they are skeptical, they often turn out to have had reason to be (Rundblad comes to mind, no I haven't called him a bust). When they are decidedly enamored with a player (OEL, Landeskog come to mind) they often come out right.
So far the good words on Wikstrand are universal amongst Swedish fans it seems. He's considered the #1 Dman on an SEL2 team which is more than management could have been asking for.
I think it's a very useful gauge for comparing one prospect against another. Recently, the following have done very well at the rookie camp: Borowiecki, Da Costa, Winchester, Hoffman, Lehner, Zibanejad, Rundblad, Silfverberg, Prince, Pageau.
How did Landeskog and OEL look at their respective rookie camps? They probably dominated the **** out of them.
I'm not saying that poor performance at a rookie camp seals a player's fate, but, comeon.
I don't think that's correct at all. All we, fans living outside of Sweden with little access to SEL-2 games, can judge a player on is opinion of authority and statistical analysis. Right now, Wikstrand is receiving great praise from several users who watch Mora games. There was a claim that he was without a doubt the best defenseman on the team at this time, too. We can take that how we wish as we don't know how well people judge player talent or potential. However, we then look to the score sheet to see if there's a correlation. He's putting up big points. I don't think it's hard to say that he's doing very, very well right now.
To state that the SEL-2 is "crap" is dumb. It's not elite talent level by any means but I hardly think we should claim that there's no way Wikstrand's actually any good because he's playing in a junior league WHILE HE HIMSELF IS A JUNIOR.
People aren't penciling this guy into the NHL line-up in the next few seasons, but people are excited to hear great things about a 7th round pick that could, potentially, be a steal.
But it's funny that you're using the "he didn't impress me at rookie camp" argument. I'll take how he performs on the ice, in game, over how he looks in comparison to top prospects with, at times, several years of development ahead of him in his first training camp. It certainly feels like you're trying to discredit Wikstrand's play right now for the sake of discrediting his play.
I'm just trying to add some balance against the one-sided hype train. Don't tell me there isn't substantial bias here. Even just after the draft he was ranked by HFBoards as superior to our 5th and 6th round picks. That's absurd.
I think it has something to do with the fact he's Swedish, but maybe I'm off.
So yeah, I'm not saying he isn't a "potential steal" or whatever. Sure, he could turn into Tobias Enstrom or something, it seems possible given his encouraging start.
I think it's a very useful gauge for comparing one prospect against another. Recently, the following have done very well at the rookie camp: Borowiecki, Da Costa, Winchester, Hoffman, Lehner, Zibanejad, Rundblad, Silfverberg, Prince, Pageau.
How did Landeskog and OEL look at their respective rookie camps? They probably dominated the **** out of them.
I'm not saying that poor performance at a rookie camp seals a player's fate, but, comeon.
I think where we differ is that you seem believe that there's a science behind determining a prospects worth when evaluating them across different playing settings (aside from the NHL). Sometimes it doesn't make much sense.
I'm in the "I'd have to watch him play" camp anyways. But there's no doubting he's playing better so far than anyone could have hoped.
And some of those guys weren't that impressive in their first camps. And some of those guys were considerably older, or came from NA already, etc. And in terms of coming to a new continent to play at 18, an unheralded kid at that...you're unlikely to see the best of this player in those circumstances. Or at least it's a legitimate possible.
And I think there's a big gap between potential steal and Tobias Enstrom. Who's been suggesting the moon for this guy without saying it in jest?
Last edited by Minister of Offence: 10-17-2012 at 03:57 PM.
(b) Wikstrand has improved substantially since June
Anyway I'm not surprised people are essentially concluding (b).
I've followed Wikstrand closely for around 4 years. The developement of this player is kind of a mystery. He started as a great great talent. But then, he got abit stale. He got alot of praise from his coach. But a few could see anything in this player. Even last year, his game was kind of mediocrity. But then, bam. This season. He's been a totally different player. He plays extremely confident in the d zone, and he shows extremely competence in understanding the game also. I would compare him to Mattias Ekholm but abit more clever.
Hope this helps you out on deciding the fate for this prospect.
I'm just trying to add some balance against the one-sided hype train. Don't tell me there isn't substantial bias here. Even just after the draft he was ranked by HFBoards as superior to our 5th and 6th round picks. That's absurd.
I think it has something to do with the fact he's Swedish, but maybe I'm off.
I do think it has to do with that because the majority of our Swedish prospects have developed very well in Swedish leagues (SEL, SEL-2). Also, in regards to the HFBoards poll, there was no real guidelines set to voting. Some people claimed higher ceilings meant more than talent at that point, while some people simply chose the prospect that intrigued them the most. I was certainly one of those who voted for Wikstrand because we, at least the vast majority of us, haven't seen much from our recent late round picks. It's all about intrigue. How many of us have seen Boyle play?
Going off of that poll isn't viable evidence of being over-hyped.
Quote:
Originally Posted by source
So yeah, I'm not saying he isn't a "potential steal" or whatever. Sure, he could turn into Tobias Enstrom or something, it seems possible given his encouraging start.
However, we need to see more - a lot more.
Again, no one was saying he's a superstar. He's not a blue-chip prospect. He's not a sure thing to make the NHL. People are saying exactly the bolded, but are optimistic because of how well he is playing now. It isn't common to see a 7th round pick doing what he's doing right now in the SEL-2 and people are taking notice. That's not over-hyping.
I'm just trying to add some balance against the one-sided hype train. Don't tell me there isn't substantial bias here. Even just after the draft he was ranked by HFBoards as superior to our 5th and 6th round picks. That's absurd.
I think it has something to do with the fact he's Swedish, but maybe I'm off.
I don't think draft standing is necessarily indicative of talent or ability when comparing 5th through 7th round picks in the same draft year.
__________________ CanadianHockey________ __ __________Sens, Oilers, and Team Canada
Last edited by CanadianHockey: 10-17-2012 at 04:04 PM.
I think where we differ is that you seem believe that there's a science behind determining a prospects worth when evaluating them across different playing settings (aside from the NHL). Sometimes it doesn't make much sense.
I'm in the "I'd have to watch him play" camp anyways. But there's no doubting he's playing better so far than anyone could have hoped.
And some of those guys weren't that impressive in their first camps. And some of those guys were considerably older, or came from NA already, etc. And in terms of coming to a new continent to play at 18, an unheralded kid at that...you're unlikely to see the best of this player in those circumstances. Or at least it's a legitimate possibility.
And I think there's a big gap between potential steal and Tobias Enstrom. Who's been suggesting the moon for this guy without saying it in jest?
We've seen this countless times though. Prospects light up lower leagues and then struggle when they move up. The SEL is far from being a breeding ground for NHL talent, and we're looking at a guy playing in SEL-2. I've gotten my hopes up too many times, but really it's a simple numbers game. It's not really worth considering a player until he does something in a legit league.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggen
I've followed Wikstrand closely for around 4 years. The developement of this player is kind of a mystery. He started as a great great talent. But then, he got abit stale. He got alot of praise from his coach. But a few could see anything in this player. Even last year, his game was kind of mediocrity. But then, bam. This season. He's been a totally different player. He plays extremely confident in the d zone, and he shows extremely competence in understanding the game also. I would compare him to Mattias Ekholm but abit more clever.
Hope this helps you out on deciding the fate for this prospect.
Definitely encouraging. And thanks for your input. I don't mean to discredit your opinion at all, but the NHL is the best league in the world so it takes a certain class of player to excel here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilfverBullet
I do think it has to do with that because the majority of our Swedish prospects have developed very well in Swedish leagues (SEL, SEL-2). Also, in regards to the HFBoards poll, there was no real guidelines set to voting. Some people claimed higher ceilings meant more than talent at that point, while some people simply chose the prospect that intrigued them the most. I was certainly one of those who voted for Wikstrand because we, at least the vast majority of us, haven't seen much from our recent late round picks. It's all about intrigue. How many of us have seen Boyle play?
Sweden's a wonderful hockey country, but I don't see how the bolded is meaningfully connected to the likelihood of Wikstrand making it. Like you said it's about intrigue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianHockey
I don't think draft standing is necessarily indicative of talent or ability, at least not when comparing 5th through 7th round picks in the same draft year.
No one here knows more than our scouts, and he was the last player the Sens picked in the draft. That counts for more than simple "intrigue".
No one here knows more than our scouts, and he was the last player the Sens picked in the draft. That counts for more than simple "intrigue".
The difference between Wikstrand going in the 7th and him going in the 6th could've been as trivial as other teams not being highly interested in him, or a more senior scout was given priority to pick his 'prospect of intrigue' with our 6th rounder.
Definitely encouraging. And thanks for your input. I don't mean to discredit your opinion at all, but the NHL is the best league in the world so it takes a certain class of player to excel here.
Oh, I know. I watch ~ 4-50 games per season. (Majority Sens games )
So I dont know anything about Ekholm other than where and by who he was drafted. Is there another comparison someone could throw out?
From what ive read, it sounds like he likes to shoot, and is a bit of a powerplay specialist. Would a MA Bergeron esque player be somewhat close? (Im basing that off of an extremely small sample size and not much actual knowledge obviously)
Whats his best case scenario? Something like a bottom pairing #5, 6, or 7 offensive D that gets 30 points or so?
So I dont know anything about Ekholm other than where and by who he was drafted. Is there another comparison someone could throw out?
From what ive read, it sounds like he likes to shoot, and is a bit of a powerplay specialist. Would a MA Bergeron esque player be somewhat close? (Im basing that off of an extremely small sample size and not much actual knowledge obviously)
Whats his best case scenario? Something like a bottom pairing #5, 6, or 7 offensive D that gets 30 points or so?
I was wrong out comparing Wikstrand to Ekholm. I think it's due Ekholm is from "my town", and I've seen him alot.
I'd say that a fair comparison with Wikstrand would probably be Ekman-Larsson. I see alot of similarites in their playstyle.
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