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NHL to Expand 2 teams in Canada - THN

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Old
10-16-2012, 06:45 PM
  #526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Well, Quebec I'd take as a given and I'm surprised it's taken this long for a return of the Nordiques. The thing is, if there's talk about putting a second team in a Canadian city I would think Montreal would get at least some consideration since there's only about 1mil difference in the the sizes of their respective metro areas: 5.5mil Toronto vs 4.5mil Montreal.

Just curious is all.
The GTA is over 6 million and metro Montreal is under 4 million.

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10-16-2012, 06:45 PM
  #527
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I don't think there is anything to this story at all. I think it's just a regurgitation of someone else's wishful thinking.

Much like the numerous 'owners' and 'deals' that have come and gone in the Phoenix saga, this too will fail to materialize..

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10-16-2012, 06:48 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Any consideration of putting an expansion team in Montreal? At least on paper it would seem to me that they could support a second team as well as Toronto could.
I'm probably going to accidentally revise some history along the way here, so feel free to point out where I've gone wrong, but back when Montreal had two teams back in the 30s, one had allegiances largely among francophones, while the other was mostly supported by anglophones. This was largely the split for allegiances between the Habs and Nordiques from 1979 to 1996. If Quebec is as high up the list as people make them out to be, I'd imagine the split to be about the same, which would leave the second Montreal team without a fanbase.

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10-16-2012, 06:50 PM
  #529
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This so called arena in Markham is still along way off from putting shovel one in the ground if ever & I just don't see this arena getting bulit in Markham because I don't think they can fund this 350 million dollar arena with 100% private funds . They will need some kind of goverment funding which they won't get this arena will fall through just like all the others & if by some chance they do bulid it even roustans connections won't get them an NHL. team because MLSE. won't allow it .

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10-16-2012, 06:52 PM
  #530
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Well, Quebec I'd take as a given and I'm surprised it's taken this long for a return of the Nordiques. The thing is, if there's talk about putting a second team in a Canadian city I would think Montreal would get at least some consideration since there's only about 1mil difference in the the sizes of their respective metro areas: 5.5mil Toronto vs 4.5mil Montreal.

Just curious is all.
The GTA population grew to over 6 million (almost 6.1) this year. Montreal's greater-area is only around 3.7 million people. Montreal is a big city, but it's not 2 NHL teams big. Toronto could support 2, but I don't think it'll happen.

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10-16-2012, 06:56 PM
  #531
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Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
The GTA population grew to over 6 million (almost 6.1) this year. Montreal's greater-area is only around 3.7 million people. Montreal is a big city, but it's not 2 NHL teams big. Toronto could support 2, but I don't think it'll happen.
Ah, OK. I was going with data I could Google so it was probably dated. Growing to over 6mil is a pretty big jump from the 2011 census.

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10-16-2012, 06:59 PM
  #532
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Probably agree with you here, and maybe even a step further. They might even ask for a cut of their traditional TV rights, a la the concession that MLB gave the Orioles in order to get them to acquiesce in allowing the Expos to move to D.C. Even if it's only for a few years, owning the TV and radio rights to a Markham-based team would probably be worth every penny to the new Leaf owners.
I'd agree, but unless they fixed a percentage, there would be a difficult time crafting that deal without the other party.

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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
But, that being said, it obviously depends on how exactly involved the NHL has been in the MLSE/Rogers negotiations. If this is suddenly sprung on both parties, then Rogers/Bell might legitimately have ground to demand a reduction in the sales price of the team as part of the value they thought they had in the franchise was in potentially exerting out an indemnity from a new team or holding exclusive rights to the GTA market. And the Leafs might have grounds to sue for the league in tampering with their in-good faith negotiations and resulting in a reduction of the value of their team as a result of a loss of their monopoly of the GTA and southern Ontario market.
Well if the NHL approved the sale (have they yet?) without terms for this expansion, there's NO WAY the tweet is remotely accurate. The NHL can't have these elaborate plans unless they've discussed it with Rogers/Bell; or else they're walking into a road block.

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... yes, unfortunately that is a "H u g e S t r e t c h". My feeling is that Markham actually comes before Hamilton. Its just impossible to predict with so many balls in the air at the moment, everything in flux, but instinctively, my gut tells me Roustans' got an inside track, the wheels greased, cards marked.
The only way I see that scenario, is if the NHL didn't think of tying expansion to the MLSE sale, and Roustans' brought it to the NHL when they heard of Rogers/Bell/MLSE.

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10-16-2012, 07:00 PM
  #533
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Originally Posted by Buck Aki Berg View Post
I'm probably going to accidentally revise some history along the way here, so feel free to point out where I've gone wrong, but back when Montreal had two teams back in the 30s, one had allegiances largely among francophones, while the other was mostly supported by anglophones. This was largely the split for allegiances between the Habs and Nordiques from 1979 to 1996. If Quebec is as high up the list as people make them out to be, I'd imagine the split to be about the same, which would leave the second Montreal team without a fanbase.
Totally disagree on that last part between MTL and Quebec allegiances, as I was right in the middle of them. Nords fans were people that were tired of the Canadiens, natives/residents of Quebec City or area , people that wanted something different or just new fans/disturbers that wanted to fight the "big brother" up the street. Anglos typically migrated to the Leafs anyway, except for those in Eastern Ontario/Western Quebec that got hooked on their championship ways (guilty as charged until the Senators arrived).

Montreal isn't likely to get a second team anyway, but you can expect a splinter toward the Nords when they come back. My wife was a true blue in the day and she's dying to go back to her hometown and cheer the "locals".

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10-16-2012, 08:22 PM
  #534
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Ah, OK. I was going with data I could Google so it was probably dated. Growing to over 6mil is a pretty big jump from the 2011 census.
Toronto is very quick growing, but you may have been looking at the metro area rather than the GTA.

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10-16-2012, 08:25 PM
  #535
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Toronto is very quick growing, but you may have been looking at the metro area rather than the GTA.
Yes, it specifically said Toronto Metro Area.

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10-16-2012, 09:09 PM
  #536
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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
I don't think there is anything to this story at all. I think it's just a regurgitation of someone else's wishful thinking.

Much like the numerous 'owners' and 'deals' that have come and gone in the Phoenix saga, this too will fail to materialize..
I'm seriously thinking the same. I at least see no evidence that the story has any basis other than someone's prediction about what they think is going to happen. Until there is some semblance of real evidence that Expansion is seriously being considered by the League, and not just some reporter, then I'm not getting overly involved in the topic. But still, Expansion could certainly be down the road in the not too distant future, but I don't think there'll be anything before 2015 at the earliest. But then, who am I; much less than the reporter who started this rumor in the first place.

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10-16-2012, 09:47 PM
  #537
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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
I don't think there is anything to this story at all. I think it's just a regurgitation of someone else's wishful thinking.

Much like the numerous 'owners' and 'deals' that have come and gone in the Phoenix saga, this too will fail to materialize..
At the moment, I agree. Haven't heard anything that would make me think that there's much legitimacy to these claims.

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10-16-2012, 09:49 PM
  #538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
Yeah, but the sale of the team to Rogers/Bell can pave the way. The league can basically say "accept it, or we don't approve the sale."

MLB forced the Astros to change leagues/divisions by making it a condition of the sale.

When your choice are "own the Leafs with another team in the market, or don't own the Leafs at all" it's pretty easy to accept.
regarding the Astros, KevFu:

the reason the Astros are switching Leagues, is the same reason given when MLB created the Central Division in a 3 division alignment, remember the realignment threads where it was 16-14 split between conferences, and wasn't it Selig's own Brewers who switched leagues the last time.... they want to make it even 15-15.

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10-16-2012, 10:45 PM
  #539
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Totally disagree on that last part between MTL and Quebec allegiances, as I was right in the middle of them. Nords fans were people that were tired of the Canadiens, natives/residents of Quebec City or area , people that wanted something different or just new fans/disturbers that wanted to fight the "big brother" up the street. Anglos typically migrated to the Leafs anyway, except for those in Eastern Ontario/Western Quebec that got hooked on their championship ways (guilty as charged until the Senators arrived).
Good to know .. I was getting this propaganda information from my girlfriend who is much more interested in Quebec politics than she is in Quebec hockey. She basically told me that Habs fans were federalist and/or anglophone, and Nords fans were seperatist and/or francophone. It's an awfully broad brush to paint with, but it's all I had to go on.

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10-16-2012, 10:57 PM
  #540
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For those using the senses remember that for some strange reason there is often conflicting reports to actually where people live full time. A few years ago a report came out on the Canadian senses and pointed out that Alberta, BC, and the territories were get short shifted because some people who spent 90% of their time in those places where being counted as living in Ontario and Quebec.

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10-17-2012, 01:43 AM
  #541
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Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
regarding the Astros, KevFu:

the reason the Astros are switching Leagues, is the same reason given when MLB created the Central Division in a 3 division alignment, remember the realignment threads where it was 16-14 split between conferences, and wasn't it Selig's own Brewers who switched leagues the last time.... they want to make it even 15-15.
Yeah... but that wasn't by design. It's a long story, but here's the SHORT VERSION:

MLB went to 30 teams to avoid an anti-trust lawsuit, backed themselves into requiring a MASSIVE change (interleague play or radical realignment). Switching leagues/divisions requires team approval, so they settled on 16-14 because they couldn't agree on anything else and Selig's Brewers were willing to make it happen to fix the problem. (Oh, and the owners were intrigued by interleague $$$ so they tried it out on a limited basis).

Now 15 years later, interleague is accepted. But schedule is always an issue.

Since that team approval prevents a wide-scale realignment, the way to accomplish 6x5 in the fewest number of moves is: Houston to the AL West. With the Astros up for sale, MLB saw the opportunity and pounced:

MLB.com: As the Astros await approval of a transfer of ownership to a group led by Houston businessman Jim Crane, an industry source has confirmed for MLB.com that Commissioner Bud Selig has asked Crane to agree to move the Astros to the American League if he's approved as owner.

USAToday: As part of his agreement to buy the club, Crane will shift the Astros to the AL after 2012, creating two 15-team leagues. Crane's Astros will move from the NL Central to the AL West after next season, a result he originally was not pleased with due to the bevy of West Coast road games added to the Astros' TV schedule.

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10-17-2012, 02:03 AM
  #542
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it's going to be quebec

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10-17-2012, 03:43 AM
  #543
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According to their Wikipedia pages it's:

Toronto: 2.6 mil (city), 5.5 mil (metro)
Montreal: 1.6 mil (city), 3.8 mil (metro)

There's also a lot more people in the general vicinity of Toronto than Montreal. There's 8 million in the Golden Horseshoe (about a 2 hour driving radius around Toronto). A lot more business money to buy boxes in TO as well.

That said, Montreal doesn't have NBA or MLB. It really is under served for a city that size (1 team in big 4 sports). I recall Bob McCown said George Gillet was intrigued by the idea of a second team in the Bell Centre. Who knows.

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10-17-2012, 03:59 AM
  #544
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That said, Montreal doesn't have NBA or MLB. It really is under served for a city that size (1 team in big 4 sports). I recall Bob McCown said George Gillet was intrigued by the idea of a second team in the Bell Centre. Who knows.
Good to know. Now would be the ideal time to call the NBA: Montreal and Seattle get expansion teams.

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10-17-2012, 09:00 AM
  #545
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Good to know. Now would be the ideal time to call the NBA: Montreal and Seattle get expansion teams.
Does the league still own the Hornets, or did they finally pawn them off on someone?

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10-17-2012, 10:14 AM
  #546
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Does the league still own the Hornets, or did they finally pawn them off on someone?
The Saints owner now. Stern rigged the draft lottery and gave him an ASG.

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10-17-2012, 01:34 PM
  #547
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The GTA population grew to over 6 million (almost 6.1) this year. Montreal's greater-area is only around 3.7 million people. Montreal is a big city, but it's not 2 NHL teams big. Toronto could support 2, but I don't think it'll happen.
Not to mention that the Golden Horseshoe is has about 8+ million people. CMAs in Canada are calculated differently than in the US. The Golden Horseshoe is the best comparable to say, Dallas-Fort Worth or New York City-Newark metro areas in terms of size (area). That would be like Toronto-Hamilton.

Montreal doesn't have a larger area that can compare in terms of population. Moreover, corporate support is significantly less than what you'd find in Toronto.

As a counterpoint though, Toronto also has an NBA and MLB team -- Montreal doesn't have other professional sports teams. And I don't think anyone can doubt the passion for hockey in Montreal, it's unreal.

Still, I think the only Canadian city that could support two teams is Toronto. Hell, I think Toronto, Markham and Hamilton (or Kitchener-Waterloo) could be sustainable.

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10-17-2012, 03:44 PM
  #548
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I'm seriously thinking the same. I at least see no evidence that the story has any basis other than someone's prediction about what they think is going to happen. Until there is some semblance of real evidence that Expansion is seriously being considered by the League, and not just some reporter, then I'm not getting overly involved in the topic. But still, Expansion could certainly be down the road in the not too distant future, but I don't think there'll be anything before 2015 at the earliest. But then, who am I; much less than the reporter who started this rumor in the first place.
For me, it doesn't even pass the smell test. I can only recall one expansion where it wasn't put out for bids and that was the Anaheim/Florida expansion (also the San Jose one, but that was part of a deal to keep the Minnesota North Stars from relocating.) Now I can see an annoucement by the NHL that it's seeking bids, but if there is a secret backroom deal that kind of puts the NHL at the FIFA level of evil and corrupt. As much as I like bashing the NHL, I don't believe it's there yet.

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10-17-2012, 06:17 PM
  #549
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For me, it doesn't even pass the smell test. I can only recall one expansion where it wasn't put out for bids and that was the Anaheim/Florida expansion (also the San Jose one, but that was part of a deal to keep the Minnesota North Stars from relocating.) Now I can see an annoucement by the NHL that it's seeking bids, but if there is a secret backroom deal that kind of puts the NHL at the FIFA level of evil and corrupt. As much as I like bashing the NHL, I don't believe it's there yet.
The process the NHL used in the two 90s waves of expansion was relatively unique. Leagues normally don't open up and say "Who wants in?"

It usually works with potential owners and cities approaching the league, making a pitch and the league saying "yeah, let's do it"

Like I said before: MLB has added TWO TEAMS solely because they felt they needed to grow and went on the hunt (Denver, Miami, Tampa, Phoenix applied).

Every other baseball expansion they had the sites picked out:
to thwart another league (NYM-HOU, LAA-WAS/TEX was to stop the Continental Baseball League from forming) or to stop lawsuits (TB-ARZ; TOR-SEA).


This potential NHL expansion is because we have Quebec saying "Hey, we know what we gotta do, we're willing to do it, let us back in" and the NHL thinking "The timing works now, let's do it."

The NHL's willingness to add QUE and another team is EXTREMELY PLAUSIBLE given the CBA negotiations (more jobs to trade the NHLPA), the media climate of "more Canadian teams," which can deflect the attention from the struggling southern teams, the need for more dollars infused to the poor teams and an unwillingness to significantly raise revenue sharing, and the timing of the MLSE sale.

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10-17-2012, 10:06 PM
  #550
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Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
The process the NHL used in the two 90s waves of expansion was relatively unique. Leagues normally don't open up and say "Who wants in?"

It usually works with potential owners and cities approaching the league, making a pitch and the league saying "yeah, let's do it"

Like I said before: MLB has added TWO TEAMS solely because they felt they needed to grow and went on the hunt (Denver, Miami, Tampa, Phoenix applied).
Actually you are completely wrong on that. All leagues go through an expansion bid process. It didn't take me long to google the proof of it. The baseball expansion you mentioned above had several other candidates including Buffalo, Washington, Orlando and Mexico City.

http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/109798

That was the very first thing that popped up on Google. Now if I had a couple of hours, I could probably go through and get every failed expansion bid from every expansion in every league.

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Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
The NHL's willingness to add QUE and another team is EXTREMELY PLAUSIBLE given the CBA negotiations (more jobs to trade the NHLPA), the media climate of "more Canadian teams," which can deflect the attention from the struggling southern teams, the need for more dollars infused to the poor teams and an unwillingness to significantly raise revenue sharing, and the timing of the MLSE sale.
Oh pul-eeeze... That doesn't even make the remotest sense. Unless you suscribe to the 'ev0l Canadian media' conspiracy theory that the NHL is actually worried about how Canadians view it...

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