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NHL to Expand 2 teams in Canada - THN

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10-17-2012, 09:36 PM
  #551
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Originally Posted by Buck Aki Berg View Post
Good to know .. I was getting this propaganda information from my girlfriend who is much more interested in Quebec politics than she is in Quebec hockey. She basically told me that Habs fans were federalist and/or anglophone, and Nords fans were seperatist and/or francophone. It's an awfully broad brush to paint with, but it's all I had to go on.
There is a conceptual split in Quebec along socio-economic/politico-religous edu-language lines. Habs on one side, Les Nordiques when they were here on the other. God forbid if they were ever to be in the Stanley cup finals.

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10-17-2012, 09:45 PM
  #552
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Actually you are completely wrong on that. All leagues go through an expansion bid process. It didn't take me long to google the proof of it. The baseball expansion you mentioned above had several other candidates including Buffalo, Washington, Orlando and Mexico City.

http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/109798

That was the very first thing that popped up on Google. Now if I had a couple of hours, I could probably go through and get every failed expansion bid from every expansion in every league.
You found the teams that missed the cut on the expansion I said was open and actually had an open process. Congratulations. (In fact, the first eight are from the expansions I said were open processes).

MLB announced an expansion committee in 1994, and did so loudly to get Florida Congressmen to back off. Tampa was jerked around three times and their politicians decided to go after MLB's anti-trust exemption.

The MLB expansion committee featured:
-- Tampa native resident George Steinbrenner.
-- Key West resident Richard Jacobs.
-- An owner who nearly moved his team to Tampa (Jerry Reinsdorf)
-- An owner who owned an NBA team and was friends with the NBA owner who applied for the Phoenix team (also Jerry Reinsdorf)
-- An exec who worked in the NBA for decades and knew the NBA owner who applied for the Phoenix team (Stan Kasten)

The application process was solely collecting future data. EVERYONE knew who was getting those two franchises. This is the from the day the committee was announced (The New York Times, March 02, 1994)
Quote:
Further evidence that Phoenix and St. Petersburg-Tampa, Fla., will receive franchises when major league baseball next expands came today with the appointment of six owners to an expansion committee.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/03/02/sp...-is-named.html
The article mentions Colangelo by name as the Phoenix owner.

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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
Oh pul-eeeze... That doesn't even make the remotest sense. Unless you suscribe to the 'ev0l Canadian media' conspiracy theory that the NHL is actually worried about how Canadians view it...
I don't care. Disagree with the opinion point of that statement all you want. I could have just said "The timing of the MLSE sale makes it plausible."

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10-17-2012, 10:10 PM
  #553
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Still, I think the only Canadian city that could support two teams is Toronto. Hell, I think Toronto, Markham and Hamilton (or Kitchener-Waterloo) could be sustainable.
Toronto can certainly support a second team and Markham ( or being a second team in the ACC ) would not hurt Buffalo. Kitchener-Waterloo is looking at rough times with complete implosion of Blackberry.

A team in Quebec City will do fine as it will pull in ratings in Montreal in the new French sports network.

Hamilton would impact Buffalo and it will never happen.

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10-17-2012, 10:15 PM
  #554
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Hamilton would impact Buffalo and it will never happen.
Who cares. If Buffalo can't get enough fan support from their own side of the border, then they are another weak American market that depends on Canadians for survival, and should be dealt with accordingly.

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10-17-2012, 10:40 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by Puckschmuck View Post
Who cares. If Buffalo can't get enough fan support from their own side of the border, then they are another weak American market that depends on Canadians for survival, and should be dealt with accordingly.
30-35% of Detroit STH's are from Ontario. No accident that The Joe is next to the Windsor Tunnel.

Buffalo's problem is the metro area has lost 50% of its population in 40 years. In 1970 it was the 18th largest TV market in the US - now it is (#TV homes)

50 Jacksonville 669,840
51 Buffalo 645,190
52 New Orleans 643,660
53 Providence-New Bedford 620,010
54 Wilkes Barre-Scranton-Hztn 590,740

Buffalo on its own is an AHL market.

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10-17-2012, 10:46 PM
  #556
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In what markets? I think that all of the big markets for NHL teams in Canada are taken---the only untapped markets for NHL teams in North America are in the Pacific Northwest and Texas as I see it...and the Oilers might be headed to Seattle.

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10-17-2012, 10:53 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
I don't care. Disagree with the opinion point of that statement all you want. I could have just said "The timing of the MLSE sale makes it plausible."
Personally, I never said that it isn't "plausible" that the League has Expansion in mind. But I do agree with Evil Doctor that the rumor that's going around and its source isn't enough to "pass the smell test" as any kind of real evidence that Expansion is at this moment being considered. A reporter speculating about Expansion as being in the wind, that's not evidence at all. Expansion has generally been a very upfront thing with the NHL, and if they're thinking about it then we should have more direct signs.

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10-17-2012, 11:30 PM
  #558
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Originally Posted by aemoreira1981 View Post
In what markets? I think that all of the big markets for NHL teams in Canada are taken---the only untapped markets for NHL teams in North America are in the Pacific Northwest and Texas as I see it...and the Oilers might be headed to Seattle.
There is no might for the oilers. There is a greater chance that phx ends up in Seattle than the oilers if you want to compare the two.

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10-17-2012, 11:31 PM
  #559
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Personally, I never said that it isn't "plausible" that the League has Expansion in mind. But I do agree with Evil Doctor that the rumor that's going around and its source isn't enough to "pass the smell test" as any kind of real evidence that Expansion is at this moment being considered. A reporter speculating about Expansion as being in the wind, that's not evidence at all. Expansion has generally been a very upfront thing with the NHL, and if they're thinking about it then we should have more direct signs.
Personally i think the league wants to take care of phx, islanders and the debt situation with the devils before thinking of expansion.

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10-18-2012, 12:37 AM
  #560
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I think it's more likely that we will see some more teams move before the league expands. Panthers first come to mind.

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10-18-2012, 12:43 AM
  #561
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I think it's more likely that we will see some more teams move before the league expands. Panthers first come to mind.
If I'm not mistaken, the Panthers have a very favorable arena deal. They probably won't move.

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10-18-2012, 01:06 AM
  #562
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If I'm not mistaken, the Panthers have a very favorable arena deal. They probably won't move.
They do indeed. Through 2029 I believe, the building itself is profitable, Yormark papering the place with sponsorships and despite a sluggish gate after years of mediocrity Tallon's turning things around.

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10-18-2012, 01:07 AM
  #563
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Personally, I never said that it isn't "plausible" that the League has Expansion in mind. But I do agree with Evil Doctor that the rumor that's going around and its source isn't enough to "pass the smell test" as any kind of real evidence that Expansion is at this moment being considered. A reporter speculating about Expansion as being in the wind, that's not evidence at all. Expansion has generally been a very upfront thing with the NHL, and if they're thinking about it then we should have more direct signs.
I think the situations in Quebec, Seattle, Markham and the Leafs sale make it plausible.

I don't "trust" the source, either. I just wouldn't be all that surprised if the NHL did use more jobs as a CBA bargaining chip and announce expansion after the deal was done. The only surprising aspect of it would be adding a Toronto team NOW and not when Bell/Rogers stop getting along.

For it to be close, they'd merely need to be doing their due diligence behind the scenes. While that might seem surprising for the NHL to be thinking ahead, working behind the scenes and planning things out proactively, instead of reactively, I consider the four conference realignment plan that leaked nearly a year ago and was adopted last December (before the NHLPA vetoed it on principle). We all expected 16 East/14 West to be revealed. And they went 16-14 West with DET/CBJ still in the Norris; TB/FLA brilliantly in the Adams. I was surprised at the forethought that went into it. And it has two EASTERN spots open.

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10-18-2012, 07:56 AM
  #564
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Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
For it to be close, they'd merely need to be doing their due diligence behind the scenes. While that might seem surprising for the NHL to be thinking ahead, working behind the scenes and planning things out proactively, instead of reactively, I consider the four conference realignment plan that leaked nearly a year ago and was adopted last December (before the NHLPA vetoed it on principle). We all expected 16 East/14 West to be revealed. And they went 16-14 West with DET/CBJ still in the Norris; TB/FLA brilliantly in the Adams. I was surprised at the forethought that went into it. And it has two EASTERN spots open.
I'm more prone to speculate that the reporter's speculation is in great part spawned from the realignment outcome proposal, rather than League EASTERN Expansion thinking being the cause for why the proposed realignment happened to turn out the way it did. Still say that the proposed realignment turned out that way because it was the only realignment that the League could get the sufficient majority agreement on. And all Exapansion speculation is seeded from that. But hey, I could easily be proven wrong; as I said, Expansion isn't implausible, and I think that it certainly could happen as early as 2015.

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10-18-2012, 11:01 AM
  #565
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Montreal will never see 2 teams again. In the first season of the NHL they had the Wanderers' and Canadiens and in the 30's they had the Maroons, but neither team succeeded. Since Toronto has taken over as the largest city in Canada they're the only city that would be considered for a second team. Quebec will get another team eventually in Quebec City, but not Montreal.
Neither team really failed either. The Wanderers folded because their arena burned down and the Maroons because of the Great Depression. The league actually promised that the Maroons franchise would be revived when the economy improved but reneged on that promise in the early 1940's.

At this point in time, with no franchise in any other major sport and a population of 4 million, Montreal would probably be capable of supporting another franchise, from a strictly economic point-of-view. That said, I do agree Montreal is unlikely to ever get a second team back. It simply is not the same city as it was.

Montreal, back then, was the centre of everything. The city could quite possibly had been the second most important city on the continent, behind New York. At the turn of the 20th century, it was estimated that 70% of all wealth in Canada was centred in the rich neighbourhoods in the west-end of Montreal's downtown. The city had more skyscrapers than any other city in the world other than New York and Boston. The Bank of Montreal, into the 1910's and '20's, was as large in assets and transactions as any American bank. The city's decline started in the 1930's with the Great Depression and hit rock bottom in the 1970's as the independence movement led the majority of major corporations to move their head offices to Toronto.


Last edited by htpwn: 10-18-2012 at 11:06 AM.
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Old
10-18-2012, 11:06 AM
  #566
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http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2012...e-views/11765/

Adrian Dater transcription from TSN 690 [Montreal] interview with Pierre McGuire:

Quote:
Melnick brought up a story that was breaking on the Hockey News’ website, saying Quebec and suburban Toronto would be awarded expansion teams when the lockout is over.
McGuire said, “I’ve told you this a long time, my friend, and I’m not backing off: this league is expanding. It’s gonna expand and Quebec’s gonna be a landing spot, and I would say Seattle’s got the potential to be a landing spot and I truly believe north of the 401 in Markham Ontario could be a landing spot, and it would not surprise me at all to see expansion. In order for people to see how owners are going to grow revenues for themselves, part of it’s going to be through expansion, and it’s going to cost between $280-$300 million to get an expansion team, I truly believe that.”
...
But if owners know they have $600 million coming in from expansion – none of which goes to players – then that makes them less likely to go to war over 2 or 3 percent. Can the players get a couple more percent out of Bettman, especially in Year 1 of a deal? Maybe.

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10-18-2012, 11:46 AM
  #567
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http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2012...e-views/11765/

Adrian Dater transcription from TSN 690 [Montreal] interview with Pierre McGuire:
*Snip*
So expansion in Seattle, Quebec, relocate Yotes to Markham for a HUGE relocation fee to get back the losses for floating the Yotes?

Also, does this keep DRW in the West? WPG & SEA in the west, TOR2 & QC in the east.

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10-18-2012, 11:58 AM
  #568
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So expansion in Seattle, Quebec, relocate Yotes to Markham for a HUGE relocation fee to get back the losses for floating the Yotes?

Also, does this keep DRW in the West? WPG & SEA in the west, TOR2 & QC in the east.
I doubt the Yotes float until 2015 when the Markham Arena is ready.

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10-18-2012, 12:03 PM
  #569
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If this was part of the plan, Bettman would have leaked it with the CBA. Explaining how with the new markets, revenues should increase and the players would be making more money than in the past.

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10-18-2012, 12:39 PM
  #570
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Quote:
But if owners know they have $600 million coming in from expansion – none of which goes to players – then that makes them less likely to go to war over 2 or 3 percent. Can the players get a couple more percent out of Bettman, especially in Year 1 of a deal? Maybe.
This doesn't solve the issue so much as it delays it, no?

The owners won't go to war over 2-3% this time since they'd have $600 in expansion fees coming in, but what happens in 6 years when the CBA comes up again, and they have to get that 2-3% since adding another two teams just isn't an option?

Not only that, but the league needs to have a couple of soft landing sports for teams in trouble. It would be silly to burn those options just to avoid a prolonged work stoppage to get their house in order.

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10-18-2012, 12:44 PM
  #571
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck Aki Berg View Post
This doesn't solve the issue so much as it delays it, no?

The owners won't go to war over 2-3% this time since they'd have $600 in expansion fees coming in, but what happens in 6 years when the CBA comes up again, and they have to get that 2-3% since adding another two teams just isn't an option?

Not only that, but the league needs to have a couple of soft landing sports for teams in trouble. It would be silly to burn those options just to avoid a prolonged work stoppage to get their house in order.
IMO there are 4 "soft landing spots"

Quebec
Seattle
Southern Ontario
KC

Burn 2 of those with expansion + you keep 2 open for relocation.

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10-18-2012, 12:46 PM
  #572
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Originally Posted by Buck Aki Berg View Post
This doesn't solve the issue so much as it delays it, no?

The owners won't go to war over 2-3% this time since they'd have $600 in expansion fees coming in, but what happens in 6 years when the CBA comes up again, and they have to get that 2-3% since adding another two teams just isn't an option?

Not only that, but the league needs to have a couple of soft landing sports for teams in trouble. It would be silly to burn those options just to avoid a prolonged work stoppage to get their house in order.
That sounds a lot more like a logical scenario. Sure, the League may be starting to eye a couple/few locations for potential Expansion, but first they'll wait until those locations are fully ready, and between now and then make sure that desperate relocation options are not needed. Between now and roughly 2015, if the League can more or less resolve some serious issues that exist with a few franchises (without needing to use relocation options) then it may well say... Expansion, let's do it.

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10-18-2012, 12:51 PM
  #573
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
That sounds a lot more like a logical scenario. Sure, the League may be starting to eye a couple/few locations for potential Expansion, but first they'll wait until those locations are fully ready, and between now and then make sure that desperate relocation options are not needed. Between now and roughly 2015, if the League can more or less resolve some serious issues that exist with a few franchises (without needing to use relocation options) then it may well say... Expansion, let's do it.
There will be relocation since there are more than 2 cities wanting a team.

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10-18-2012, 12:59 PM
  #574
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There will be relocation since there are more than 2 cities wanting a team.
Have you followed previous Expansion bids? There have generally always been more bids to get teams than there were cities that actually were granted Expansion franchises. Just because there are more than 2 cities that might want teams, doesn't mean that all of those cities will get teams. Hell, take Winnipeg as a recent example... How long was it that Winnipeg tried to get an NHL team? Yes, eventually they got one and through relocation, but it took years to finally happen. The NHL is still going to fight tooth and nail to prevent relocation from happening; but sometimes it does become unavoidable.

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10-18-2012, 01:26 PM
  #575
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Have you followed previous Expansion bids? There have generally always been more bids to get teams than there were cities that actually were granted Expansion franchises. Just because there are more than 2 cities that might want teams, doesn't mean that all of those cities will get teams. Hell, take Winnipeg as a recent example... How long was it that Winnipeg tried to get an NHL team? Yes, eventually they got one and through relocation, but it took years to finally happen. The NHL is still going to fight tooth and nail to prevent relocation from happening; but sometimes it does become unavoidable.
2 teams via expansion then the rest would have to wait for relocation which was my point

if that the case that NHL will fight tooth and nail then its unlikely that Canada will get two new teams imo. It would be one at the most and that'll be Quebec City. It would be ridiculous to have the Seattle market wait even longer when they finally addressed the arena problem and yes i am assuming that the sodo arena gets built.

Winnipeg had no other option but to wait for a relocation.

Why should Ontario get another team while other markets like Quebec city or Seattle for example wait.

Lets take care of other regions that don't have a team before adding an additional team where there is currently already a team.

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