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Old
10-18-2012, 12:55 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I forgot that +/- was indicative of defensive play. Thanks for the reminder.
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Originally Posted by Mr Pringles View Post
Because the +/- stat is so accurate.
You guys are probably right. The Sedins are being spit up and chewed out in their head to head matchups against the opposition's top players.

That career +181 is just a mirage.

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10-18-2012, 12:56 AM
  #77
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Because the +/- stat is so accurate.
The +/- stat is perfectly accurate. It tells you how many more EV goals were scored while you were on the ice for your team versus the opponent's team. There is no guesswork with it, it's 100% accurate.

What it isn't accurate is the wild conclusions people come to about +/- over the short term. +/- can be heavily affect by poor goaltending, having a weak or strong team, random chance, being sheltered, etc. This is why you have stuff like the famous joke ad for Rory Fitzpatrick that shows the highlight of Lidstrom being -5 one game, +/- fluctuates randomly no matter how good or bad you are.

You know what looking at +/- over 10 years does? It normalizes most of those variables. Sedins have been everything from 3rd line players to 1st line players over the last 10 years, they've been on President Trophy winning teams and they've been on teams that have missed the playoffs, they've had Luongo/Schneider behind them and they've had Cloutier behind them, they've been asked to play a regular PK role and they've been asked to be PP specialists.

To ignore the fact a player has been a positive player for 10 consecutive years saying +/- isn't accurate is complete stupidity.

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10-18-2012, 12:57 AM
  #78
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Can we not make this thread all about the defense of accumen of two players who have nothing to do with this topic?

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10-18-2012, 12:59 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
We don't need Gunnarsson, and Toronto does. But valuewise the Leafs make out like bandits.

I really hope one of JVR or Lupul are on the table...I doubt it though.
Don't need Gunnarsson?

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10-18-2012, 12:59 AM
  #80
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Production, age and size all disagree with you.
Not so much production and age. Size does have the right to disagree however.

I just don't like the fit for Raymond on the 3rd line. Kulemin's size and style of play would just benefit Jordan Schroeder much more IMO. Or even Lapierre, if Schroeder doesn't cut it.

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10-18-2012, 01:00 AM
  #81
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Before the last 2 years, their Ozone starts were right in line with other top offensive forwards around the league. They also carried a great +/- record along the way. The recent push for more Ozone starts is to maximize their effectiveness offensively, not to protect them defensively.


This is especially dubious since they spent a good chunk of their careers in a defense first system.
I believe that the Sedins are average defensive forwards, who are very good defensive forwards against the third line checkers that they face. I also believe that Lupul is one of the three worst defensive forwards in the league, and would drag down the Sedins that much.

I'm sorry for the confusion, but I nowhere directly said that the Sedins were poor defensive players. Please don't put words in my mouth.

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Don't need Gunnarsson?
The don't need left-D. They don't really need D period.

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10-18-2012, 01:02 AM
  #82
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I think with the addition of Rielly,I would think Gardiner becomes a little expendable, I don't see him as untouchable as he was before the draft.
no he still is imo as good as rielly looks to be he still is untested at the NHL level i doubt burke moves the asset he knows can play in gardiner until he knows what he has in rielly

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10-18-2012, 01:02 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
Production, age and size all disagree with you.

Age: 26 year old Kulemin to a 27 year old Raymond.

Size: This I'll concede as Kulemin is much bigger.

Production: These two are pretty similar in this regard. One down season from Raymond due to a severe back injury makes up the difference.


I don't see much difference between these players. I like Raymond's stick-handling and shot more, and Kulemin makes up the difference with his size. Both are pretty good defensively IMO.

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10-18-2012, 01:04 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Put him with the Sedins you have a horrible, horrible defensive line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I'm sorry for the confusion, but I nowhere directly said that the Sedins were poor defensive players. Please don't put words in my mouth.
They're not poor defensive players but put Lupul on that 'sheltered' line and you have a 'horrible, horrible defensive line'?

Hmmm.

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10-18-2012, 01:05 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
What could possibly have lowered Luongo's value that came out yesterday?

Seems like Friedman didn't understand the stipulation that it's the Canucks that would be on the hook for Luongo's cap hit if he retires.
I don't understand the thinking of those who think that what came out yesterday does anything but improve the value of Luongo as essentially a large chunk of the risk could be gone.

There is such a disparity in the valuations in these threads and the true value probably lies somewhere in between. It will be interesting to revisit these threads if/when a trade goes down.

In my opinion

1. No cap dumps will be coming the other way, Luongo will bring a decent return.
2. At 33 he will not return a young stud forward/defenseman

Just my 2c

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10-18-2012, 01:07 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
They're not poor defensive players but put Lupul on that 'sheltered' line and you have a 'horrible, horrible defensive line'?

Hmmm.
Please don't cut out the meat of my post when it answers your question.

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10-18-2012, 01:11 AM
  #87
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I see two of Kadri, Colborne, Franson, MacArthur and Kulemin as the roster players who would be in play. Doubt Burke trades the 1st, but a 2nd, and a lesser prospect (like Percy) probably would also be added.

To me I think I wouldn't bother making a trade if value is any higher then:

Kadri + MaC/Franson + Ashton/2nd+Percy
or
Kadri+Kulemin+2nd for Lu and Raymond

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10-18-2012, 01:16 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I believe that the Sedins are average defensive forwards, who are very good defensive forwards against the third line checkers that they face. I also believe that Lupul is one of the three worst defensive forwards in the league, and would drag down the Sedins that much.

I'm sorry for the confusion, but I nowhere directly said that the Sedins were poor defensive players. Please don't put words in my mouth.


I didn't think that I had? You said sheltered. To me that means protected defensively... I don't think I said "poor defensive players" either.


I can live with them being "average defensively". That's what I think as well. Glad we agree.

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10-18-2012, 01:18 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlmightyPO View Post
I see two of Kadri, Colborne, Franson, MacArthur and Kulemin as the roster players who would be in play. Doubt Burke trades the 1st, but a 2nd, and a lesser prospect (like Percy) probably would also be added.

To me I think I wouldn't bother making a trade if value is any higher then:

Kadri + MaC/Franson + Ashton/2nd+Percy
or
Kadri+Kulemin+2nd for Lu and Raymond
Kadri + Kulemin + 2nd I think could be right on. But I think if changing 2nd to 1st is a deal breaker for Gillis, Burke will do it. With Luongo leafs are picking 18-22 range book it.

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10-18-2012, 01:20 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlmightyPO View Post
I see two of Kadri, Colborne, Franson, MacArthur and Kulemin as the roster players who would be in play. Doubt Burke trades the 1st, but a 2nd, and a lesser prospect (like Percy) probably would also be added.

To me I think I wouldn't bother making a trade if value is any higher then:

Kadri + MaC/Franson + Ashton/2nd+Percy
or
Kadri+Kulemin+2nd for Lu and Raymond
As a neutral that seems like solid offer maybe swapping the 2nd for a prospect. I don't see the Canucks having any interest in MacArthur or Franson

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10-18-2012, 01:23 AM
  #91
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Kadri + Kulemin + 2nd I think could be right on. But I think if changing 2nd to 1st is a deal breaker for Gillis, Burke will do it. With Luongo leafs are picking 18-22 range book it.
I would personally hate giving up the first, and considering the abysmal season we had last year, and the fallout from the Kessel deal I can't see Burke trading that 1st without some sort of protection, but who knows what Burke's game-plan really is. He has been all over the place.

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10-18-2012, 01:28 AM
  #92
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i could see reimer being in this deal cause the canucks will need a backup

Maybe reimer kulemin 2nd for raymond and. luongo

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10-18-2012, 01:29 AM
  #93
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I would personally hate giving up the first, and considering the abysmal season we had last year, and the fallout from the Kessel deal I can't see Burke trading that 1st without some sort of protection, but who knows what Burke's game-plan really is. He has been all over the place.
I agree we are just guessing here. I just figure it keeps all Leafs most important core players on board and does not kripple the farm. It also dealing from a position of strength not weakness. Leafs have lots of good wingers and Kadri could very well turn out to be one too. Colbourne I think is more valuable to Leafs. Solid defence, solid goaltending with Luongo, solid wingers. Who knows if you can somehow swing getzslaf I think you guys could be set nicely for a while.

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10-18-2012, 01:30 AM
  #94
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Seems that lots of Canuck fans think Lack is ready for the NHL, so they wouldn't need a goalie in return.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
I agree we are just guessing here. I just figure it keeps all Leafs most important core players on board and does not kripple the farm. It also dealing from a position of strength not weakness. Leafs have lots of good wingers and Kadri could very well turn out to be one too. Colbourne I think is more valuable to Leafs. Solid defence, solid goaltending with Luongo, solid wingers. Who knows if you can somehow swing getzslaf I think you guys could be set nicely for a while.
Leafs have deep enough winger depth to move a guy like Kulemin, with JVR upgrading that 2nd line winger position. Raymond brings some of what Kulemin brought, and who knows what a change of scenery could do. With a goalie like Lu, and hopefully a new centre some time in the next three years, and the emergence of some of our top prospects hopefully we will actually have some success.

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10-18-2012, 01:32 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post

Production: These two are pretty similar in this regard. One down season from Raymond due to a severe back injury makes up the difference.
If you put a graph of these two players production, their paths would be the same, but Kule would be higher since he has always produced more, except for his own down season which was last year.

What worries me the most is that, every team has a player or more,
who just doesn't fit in, is always the throw away, the add on in trade rumours. Raymond appears to be that guy in Van. I just don't want to trade away, someone who has been great in any situation, for another Lombardi. Its seems like we're solving a problem for you.

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10-18-2012, 01:35 AM
  #96
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I think Colborne+Kulemin+2nd for Raymond+Lu is fair.


Last edited by Mr Pringles: 10-18-2012 at 01:43 AM.
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10-18-2012, 01:36 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
i could see reimer being in this deal cause the canucks will need a backup

Maybe reimer kulemin 2nd for raymond and. luongo
The reason they're going to deal Lu is because they feel Lack is ready for the backup role and Schnieder is ready for the starter role.

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10-18-2012, 01:38 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
If you put a graph of these two players production, their paths would be the same, but Kule would be higher since he has always produced more, except for his own down season which was last year.

What worries me the most is that, every team has a player or more,
who just doesn't fit in, is always the throw away, the add on in trade rumours. Raymond appears to be that guy in Van. I just don't want to trade away, someone who has been great in any situation, for another Lombardi. Its seems like we're solving a problem for you.
Difference is he is on a one year deal at 2.275. I see him as a stop gap but with potential upside. Hold that 3rd line winger spot allowing guys like Biggs/Ross/etc. to develop this season, while also creating a roster spot next season if they are ready to make the jump next year.

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10-18-2012, 01:46 AM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
If you put a graph of these two players production, their paths would be the same, but Kule would be higher since he has always produced more, except for his own down season which was last year.


Raymond's 2nd most productive season beat Kulemin's 2nd most. So Kulemin has not always produced more.



Quote:
What worries me the most is that, every team has a player or more,
who just doesn't fit in, is always the throw away, the add on in trade rumours. Raymond appears to be that guy in Van. I just don't want to trade away, someone who has been great in any situation, for another Lombardi. Its seems like we're solving a problem for you.


Raymond should not be confused with a cap dump. The frequency of his inclusion in trade packages has little do with his actual value to the Canucks. If it did, Bieksa would have been shipped out a long time ago. Fan perception is often just that.


Gillis could have dumped Raymond as an unsigned RFA. He didn't. He chose to allow Raymond another chance. We'll see if he was right to do so. With a full offseason of training to strengthen his back, I like his chances to regain his prior form.

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10-18-2012, 01:48 AM
  #100
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Seems that lots of Canuck fans think Lack is ready for the NHL, so they wouldn't need a goalie in return.
.
A little risky with less than 80 nhl games between Schneider and Lack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
i could see reimer being in this deal cause the canucks will need a backup

Maybe reimer kulemin 2nd for raymond and. luongo
Don't think that would get it done.

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