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Voracek/Simmonds

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Old
10-18-2012, 03:52 AM
  #126
SupermanPahlsson
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Bobby Ryan + ? for Simmonds and Voracek.

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Old
10-18-2012, 04:12 AM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Only because of the amount of moping he did here depressing his value.


Also, I love love love how the prevailing wisdom has become that Voracek has somehow improved by leaps and bounds since leaving Columbus.

News flash: he's exactly the same. He always was a persistent player in all zones, a great passer, and yet possessed of a remarkable capacity for screwing up shots on goal. We traded him because he never got any further than that after two years and had an opportunity to (we thought) get an upgrade, and now after three he STILL isn't ahead of that status.

Jake is what he is. What he is is valuable and awesome. But whatever "upside" folks invent for him (which turns him into this legend that Columbus should absolutely never have "discarded") is rapidly becoming ephemeral. It's been three consistent years now. The trade didn't change a damn thing beyond getting him more attention; making people notice what was already there.

If one wants absolute, unshakable confirmation that folks truly do not pay the slightest attention to any Columbus Blue Jackets player in even the least amount of fashion, but are perfectly happy to make sweeping judgment calls based on their overwhelming ignorance, one need only look to the evaluations of Jake Voracek before and after the trade.
Yeah, why would anyone think Voracek could eventually improve anymore?
I mean, it's not like this guy is only 23 or something.



Wait.

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Old
10-18-2012, 06:45 AM
  #128
Clyde Donovan
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And slated to play on the 1st line with Giroux..

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Old
10-18-2012, 08:44 AM
  #129
Jack de la Hoya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupermanPahlsson View Post
Bobby Ryan + ? for Simmonds and Voracek.
From what I remember from the summer, the deal had to be Voracek + Schenn or Couturier + a 1st for Ryan. (Some users acknowledged that the price was a bit high, and suggested a 2nd instead.)

Those were some long, unproductive threads.

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Old
10-18-2012, 08:58 AM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
From what I remember from the summer, the deal had to be Voracek + Schenn or Couturier + a 1st for Ryan. (Some users acknowledged that the price was a bit high, and suggested a 2nd instead.)

Those were some long, unproductive threads.
If Getzlaf and Perry don't sign contracts the moment the CBA is signed, the worst of those threads will seem like the good ol' days.

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10-18-2012, 09:58 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Only because of the amount of moping he did here depressing his value.


Also, I love love love how the prevailing wisdom has become that Voracek has somehow improved by leaps and bounds since leaving Columbus.

News flash: he's exactly the same. He always was a persistent player in all zones, a great passer, and yet possessed of a remarkable capacity for screwing up shots on goal. We traded him because he never got any further than that after two years and had an opportunity to (we thought) get an upgrade, and now after three he STILL isn't ahead of that status.

Jake is what he is. What he is is valuable and awesome. But whatever "upside" folks invent for him (which turns him into this legend that Columbus should absolutely never have "discarded") is rapidly becoming ephemeral. It's been three consistent years now. The trade didn't change a damn thing beyond getting him more attention; making people notice what was already there.

If one wants absolute, unshakable confirmation that folks truly do not pay the slightest attention to any Columbus Blue Jackets player in even the least amount of fashion, but are perfectly happy to make sweeping judgment calls based on their overwhelming ignorance, one need only look to the evaluations of Jake Voracek before and after the trade.
I don't think the Flyers truely knew how to use Voracek and there was a feeling out process with him and the coaching staff here. It wasn't until late in the season (around the last 20 or so games and the playoffs) that they found him his niche, and he seemed to take off from there. He pretty much transformed throughout the season in Philly and by the end was an extremely confident player and a wizard on the point on the PP.

Will that translate into more points, I don't know. But he grew by leaps and bounds from his first game to his last. Not everything is quantifiable, sometimes you just see it.

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Old
10-18-2012, 10:54 AM
  #132
Tripod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Only because of the amount of moping he did here depressing his value.


Also, I love love love how the prevailing wisdom has become that Voracek has somehow improved by leaps and bounds since leaving Columbus.

News flash: he's exactly the same. He always was a persistent player in all zones, a great passer, and yet possessed of a remarkable capacity for screwing up shots on goal. We traded him because he never got any further than that after two years and had an opportunity to (we thought) get an upgrade, and now after three he STILL isn't ahead of that status.

Jake is what he is. What he is is valuable and awesome. But whatever "upside" folks invent for him (which turns him into this legend that Columbus should absolutely never have "discarded") is rapidly becoming ephemeral. It's been three consistent years now. The trade didn't change a damn thing beyond getting him more attention; making people notice what was already there.

If one wants absolute, unshakable confirmation that folks truly do not pay the slightest attention to any Columbus Blue Jackets player in even the least amount of fashion, but are perfectly happy to make sweeping judgment calls based on their overwhelming ignorance, one need only look to the evaluations of Jake Voracek before and after the trade.
As a Flyers fan, and seeing Jake in Halifax, and having Jake in a keeper pool since his draft, I have to agree with you. He is all these things and I too have waited for the bigger breakout that has not happened yet. I like what he adds to Philly but do think that he can do more. If he plays with Giroux for a whole season, he will have no more excuses for not producing more than 50 points. And if that happens, Philly should be happy to have a good second liner for years to come!

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Old
10-18-2012, 11:06 AM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
As a Flyers fan, and seeing Jake in Halifax, and having Jake in a keeper pool since his draft, I have to agree with you. He is all these things and I too have waited for the bigger breakout that has not happened yet. I like what he adds to Philly but do think that he can do more. If he plays with Giroux for a whole season, he will have no more excuses for not producing more than 50 points. And if that happens, Philly should be happy to have a good second liner for years to come!
That's about how I see it. At the end of (hopefully) this year, I think we'll know whether he's truly going to be a top-line winger, or simply a very good second line player.

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Old
10-19-2012, 11:42 AM
  #134
Viqsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
Yeah, why would anyone think Voracek could eventually improve anymore?
I mean, it's not like this guy is only 23 or something.

Wait.
It's not entirely impossible that he still could break out someday. But we've been waiting for that for several years and it still hasn't happened. And frankly I'm tired of folks inventing a "breakout" in their heads that hasn't happened and is based entirely on ignorance about CBJ players.

* * *
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
As a Flyers fan, and seeing Jake in Halifax, and having Jake in a keeper pool since his draft, I have to agree with you. He is all these things and I too have waited for the bigger breakout that has not happened yet. I like what he adds to Philly but do think that he can do more. If he plays with Giroux for a whole season, he will have no more excuses for not producing more than 50 points. And if that happens, Philly should be happy to have a good second liner for years to come!
Giroux and Voracek, IIRC, play very similar pass-first games, so I'm not sure if Giroux is the best choice for a breakout season - I'd rather look for a goal-scoring shoot-first center (like the one Jake was traded for ). Still, Giroux's clearly a heck of a lot better at it, so maybe Jake might learn a few things and go over the top that way.

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10-19-2012, 11:58 AM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupermanPahlsson View Post
Bobby Ryan + ? for Simmonds and Voracek.
Voracek+Schenn/Coturier

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Old
10-19-2012, 12:12 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
It's not entirely impossible that he still could break out someday. But we've been waiting for that for several years and it still hasn't happened. And frankly I'm tired of folks inventing a "breakout" in their heads that hasn't happened and is based entirely on ignorance about CBJ players.

* * *


Giroux and Voracek, IIRC, play very similar pass-first games, so I'm not sure if Giroux is the best choice for a breakout season - I'd rather look for a goal-scoring shoot-first center (like the one Jake was traded for ). Still, Giroux's clearly a heck of a lot better at it, so maybe Jake might learn a few things and go over the top that way.
My hope is that Giroux will indeed start to shoot more...sort of like how Crosby focused on scoring goals...I pray Claude can and will do the same. I hope he has it in him. I do agree that Jake...ideally would play with a shoot first player...but Philly really doesn't have that anymore.

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Old
10-19-2012, 12:17 PM
  #137
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Ryan Kesler is a shoot-first centre...

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Old
10-19-2012, 12:19 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Giroux and Voracek, IIRC, play very similar pass-first games, so I'm not sure if Giroux is the best choice for a breakout season - I'd rather look for a goal-scoring shoot-first center (like the one Jake was traded for ). Still, Giroux's clearly a heck of a lot better at it, so maybe Jake might learn a few things and go over the top that way.
G def looks to make a pass first but he's got a good shot unlike jake as evidenced by his 53 goals in the past two years, 28 of which came last year. If G shoots a little more i don't think 35 goals is out of the question for him and having a winger like jake could help him do that. with that in mind i still don't think jake will be a ppg player but 65+ seems reasonable imo. but even if he stays a 50 pt guy i'd still be thrilled to have him on my team

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Old
10-19-2012, 12:30 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Ryan Kesler is a shoot-first centre...
So is Steven Stamkos, and when MSL retires they'll need a replacement for him in Tampa Bay.

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Old
10-19-2012, 01:28 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
Voracek+Schenn/Coturier
Hah! No Flyers fan goes near that deal with a 50 foot pole.

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Old
10-19-2012, 03:36 PM
  #141
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Hah! No Flyers fan goes near that deal with a 50 foot pole.
Only if "Coturier" isn't actually a misspelling and is a low-level prospect none of us has heard of before.

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Old
10-19-2012, 06:40 PM
  #142
SupermanPahlsson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
Voracek+Schenn/Coturier
Meh, I'm not opposed if the Ducks don't get Couturier or Schenn in a deal. Voracek would be someone I'd love to see anchor that second PP unit, and Simmonds is such an '07 throwback that he could probably become a fan favourite - while playing with Getzlaf and Perry.

Considering how well Rakell is progressing, and the fact that Holland is ready for his shot, it's not absolutely necessary to have one of the young centermen. It would be nice, but it shouldn't be a deal breaker. Hell, Bobby will probably walk once his contract is up, and right now seems to be his peak trade value.

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Old
10-21-2012, 04:27 PM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Ryan Kesler is a shoot-first centre...
That's why this thread was started. We will take Voracek of the Flyers hands, cheaply too

The more this lockout goes, the more open I am to some of the formerly absurd requests for players I once thought were untouchable, but watching highlights, getting pro scout reports and pumping players in to behindthenet.com, I am learning a lot about some players I might not have given a second glance to.

Also, Ovechkin's post concussion comments about Russian players....Lu?

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Old
10-21-2012, 05:07 PM
  #144
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is used too much in this thread. It should be used when you really get someone good. Now it's been devalued. Shame.

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