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Old
10-18-2012, 01:50 PM
  #326
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Originally Posted by EvoLu7ioN View Post
As a Canucks fan, I honestly would not mind if the NHL's rule was accepted regarding a team being on the hook for a life time contact if the player retires.

As others have said, if this were to happen, Luongo's value will sky rocket. Other teams would be getting an elite goalie with several elite years left, who in 4-5 would retire at which point Vancouver would be on the hook for the Cap. It would hurt us down the road, but it would bring us a damn good asset back in a trade and potentially allow us to win the cup.

If this happens you'll immediatly see 5 or 6 other teams in the mix, and Luongo's value goes from Bjugstad or Colborne + a 1st to a package with all those guys combined.
I don't see how... we're on the hook for the cap, not the actual salary. It doesn't change anything except make the deal worse for us.

Under the old system, if Lu retires, new team doesn't take his cap hit anymore.

Under new system, if Lu retires, new team doesn't take his cap hit but WE do.

Maybe I'm not understanding it properly, but I don't see an advantage at all.

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10-18-2012, 01:51 PM
  #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvoLu7ioN View Post
As a Canucks fan, I honestly would not mind if the NHL's rule was accepted regarding a team being on the hook for a life time contact if the player retires.

As others have said, if this were to happen, Luongo's value will sky rocket. Other teams would be getting an elite goalie with several elite years left, who in 4-5 would retire at which point Vancouver would be on the hook for the Cap. It would hurt us down the road, but it would bring us a damn good asset back in a trade and potentially allow us to win the cup.

If this happens you'll immediatly see 5 or 6 other teams in the mix, and Luongo's value goes from Bjugstad or Colborne + a 1st to a package with all those guys combined.
As many have said...under the old CBA, if FLA or TO trades for Luongo....and then he retires, FLA or TO are not on the hook for his cap.

Under the new proposal, if FLA or TO trade for Luongo......and then he retires Van is on the hook for his cap.

How exactly do you figure FLA or TO are now going to up the offer?

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10-18-2012, 01:52 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
Colborne may be big, but he's about as gritty as a wet napkin. No sand in that kid. Big-time pass.
I don't really want him either, it's just what I think is on the table.

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10-18-2012, 01:52 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by YouCantYandleThis View Post
You just contradicted your 'critical thinking' ideas entirely. Assuming coincidences is a fantastic way to win a debate, but it means absolutely nothing factually.

I'm using something called logic. You're using faulty assumptions.
Yeah it's real logical to assume that a 38 year old dude can hang out with his team for less than 6 months and turn a 3rd liner Kesler into a Selke winner. Nothing to do wit natural development or anything.

Go to a thread in a debate about Kesler, Canucks fans:

OMG KESLER SO AWESOME. HE DEVELOPED HIMSELF SO WELL. TURNED INTO A SELKE WINNER FROM JUST BEING A THIRD LINER. BEST CENTER IN THE NHL?

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10-18-2012, 01:53 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by bikesbikesbikes View Post
I don't see how... we're on the hook for the cap, not the actual salary. It doesn't change anything except make the deal worse for us.

Under the old system, if Lu retires, new team doesn't take his cap hit anymore.

Under new system, if Lu retires, new team doesn't take his cap hit but WE do.

Maybe I'm not understanding it properly, but I don't see an advantage at all.
I have said this before. Lou's value hasn't gone up or down. It has remained the same since the end of the season.

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10-18-2012, 01:53 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by bikesbikesbikes View Post
I don't see how... we're on the hook for the cap, not the actual salary. It doesn't change anything except make the deal worse for us.

Under the old system, if Lu retires, new team doesn't take his cap hit anymore.

Under new system, if Lu retires, new team doesn't take his cap hit but WE do.

Maybe I'm not understanding it properly, but I don't see an advantage at all.
It's not an advantage. But it's makes Gillis' decision a hell of a lot harder, as well as drives his value up internally for the Canucks. No chance Gillis going to take a 'soft deal' now that he might be holding onto Luongo's future cap hit (when he should retire).

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10-18-2012, 01:53 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by bikesbikesbikes View Post
I don't see how... we're on the hook for the cap, not the actual salary. It doesn't change anything except make the deal worse for us.

Under the old system, if Lu retires, new team doesn't take his cap hit anymore.

Under new system, if Lu retires, new team doesn't take his cap hit but WE do.

Maybe I'm not understanding it properly, but I don't see an advantage at all.
There was some uncertainty about Lu's contract going forward. There were rumours about those long term deals staying on the books after the player retires, that presumably hurt his value. If that's clear now, and we are the ones on the hook, that should help alleviate those concerns.

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10-18-2012, 01:53 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
What about Edmonton as a destination for Luongo. It makes a whole lot of sense to me.
They will give Dubnyk the chance to become #1. If that does not work out expect them to trade for a goaltender in a year. I would expect that goaltender to be a younger guy who would fit with the young core.
Edmonton does not become a legitimate contender for 4 years imo by which time Luongo is 37.

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10-18-2012, 01:55 PM
  #334
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I don't see Lou to Toronto happening. Seems like a made up story in a boring offseason for trades. If it were to happen, I hope Burke uses the trade to clean up/clear out all the 2nd/3rd line players that the leafs are overstocked in. (MacArthur, Kulemin, Lombardi, Colony, etc.) LET THE KIDS PLAY

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10-18-2012, 01:55 PM
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gooilgo View Post
They will give Dubnyk the chance to become #1. If that does not work out expect them to trade for a goaltender in a year. I would expect that goaltender to be a younger guy who would fit with the young core.
Edmonton does not become a legitimate contender for 4 years imo by which time Luongo is 37.
Realistically Edmonton should be trying to improve itself these years rather than waiting to be a contender. They need to convince the guys they signed to massive contracts that there will be a team here worth playing around. I think a move for a guy like Luongo would ensure that they have a playoff caliber #1 goalie. going into a season expecting Dubnyk to start is basically going into a season expecting not to make the playoffs

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10-18-2012, 01:56 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by stryfe604 View Post
I have said this before. Lou's value hasn't gone up or down. It has remained the same since the end of the season.
I think it's gone up. If I'm a GM I'm not going to trade anything significant without knowing what the new CBA will say. Once that uncertainty is removed and I know that the new CBA does not punish a team that trades for this type of contract I'm more willing to make the trade and trade something of value.

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10-18-2012, 02:00 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Yeah it's real logical to assume that a 38 year old dude can hang out with his team for less than 6 months and turn a 3rd liner Kesler into a Selke winner. Nothing to do wit natural development or anything.

Go to a thread in a debate about Kesler, Canucks fans:

OMG KESLER SO AWESOME. HE DEVELOPED HIMSELF SO WELL. TURNED INTO A SELKE WINNER FROM JUST BEING A THIRD LINER. BEST CENTER IN THE NHL?
In fairness, I've always disliked Kesler a little bit. Started to come around the past few years when he started producing as much as talking, but there are still a ton of little things to his game that irk me (everyone knows about his flops).

I just don't understand why it's so difficult to believe that a hall-of-fame NHL'er didn't have a massive influence on the 3 biggest cogs of our offense, while playing with them an entire season.

That's exposure to the way Mats Sundin handles himself on the ice, off the ice, in the media, in the locker room, with coaches, with teammates...the list goes on.

Plus the Sedins...they've been absolutely different players since that season. Utilizing their body more correctly, being 'Absolute' leaders on the team.

Mats Sundin is also one of the better defensive center stars around in a while, and I'm sure that Kesler learned a hell of a lot from a 18+ year NHL veteran.

Sorry to take this off topic, I just don't see why you're being so dense about a relatively indifferent association to you.

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10-18-2012, 02:00 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
I think we may be getting hung up on semantics. This summer GM's were unwilling to trade significant assets for Luongo because they thought there was a risk that the new CBA would negatively affect his contract. With that risk apparently removed his value should be higher now than this summer. That is what I mean by his value has increased. I'm not implying that his contract and age have suddenly changed.
Ya it does seem this way. I think his value in the summer was in limbo due to the potential risks from a new CBA, so interest and by association value was very low, but in no way was anything set in stone. Only with a new CBA can we fully see the value. As his value was so unpredictable in the summer, I will agree it has gone up from that, but no higher than the value would have been at if the old CBA had another few years remaining, which is what I guess I have been saying all along. Essentially his value remains the same as it would under the old CBA at this time.

In either case though it also appears that any discussion of increased or decreased value is pointless, as it seems no deal was going to be made before a new CBA, and now no deal can be made until that new CBA is signed.


Last edited by AlmightyPO: 10-18-2012 at 02:05 PM.
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Old
10-18-2012, 02:02 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by YouCantYandleThis View Post
In fairness, I've always disliked Kesler a little bit. Started to come around the past few years when he started producing as much as talking, but there are still a ton of little things to his game that irk me (everyone knows about his flops).

I just don't understand why it's so difficult to believe that a hall-of-fame NHL'er didn't have a massive influence on the 3 biggest cogs of our offense, while playing with them an entire season.

That's exposure to the way Mats Sundin handles himself on the ice, off the ice, in the media, in the locker room, with coaches, with teammates...the list goes on.

Plus the Sedins...they've been absolutely different players since that season. Utilizing their body more correctly, being 'Absolute' leaders on the team.

Mats Sundin is also one of the better defensive center stars around in a while, and I'm sure that Kesler learned a hell of a lot from a 18+ year NHL veteran.

Sorry to take this off topic, I just don't see why you're being so dense about a relatively indifferent association to you.
I'm sorry, I want to believe you. But literally all you just did is give me a bunch of cliches and then slap the word logic on top of it.

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10-18-2012, 02:05 PM
  #340
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I am not sure why you all are derailing this thread anyway. I still like Edmonton as a destination for Luongo better than Toronto. Makes more sense. in Edmonton, Luongo can have a role as a leader and top dog like he did in Vancouver. In fact doing this would take a great deal of pressure off of their younger players. And not to mention it would give them a top-5 goalie on a solid contract, which they also need.

In Toronto who knows how Luongo's emotional health would be. He, a strong ego, would have to line up against guys like Phaneuf and of course Burke. I don't like the combination of Luongo and the pressure he would face in Toronto. Does not seem productive for either side.

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10-18-2012, 02:07 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Realistically Edmonton should be trying to improve itself these years rather than waiting to be a contender. They need to convince the guys they signed to massive contracts that there will be a team here worth playing around. I think a move for a guy like Luongo would ensure that they have a playoff caliber #1 goalie. going into a season expecting Dubnyk to start is basically going into a season expecting not to make the playoffs
Dubnyk was really very good from January on. If they fail to make the playoffs, I doubt the blame will be on Dubey. Some of the veterans need to step up to the plate this year.

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10-18-2012, 02:07 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
I am not sure why you all are derailing this thread anyway. I still like Edmonton as a destination for Luongo better than Toronto. Makes more sense. in Edmonton, Luongo can have a role as a leader and top dog like he did in Vancouver. In fact doing this would take a great deal of pressure off of their younger players. And not to mention it would give them a top-5 goalie on a solid contract, which they also need.

In Toronto who knows how Luongo's emotional health would be. He, a strong ego, would have to line up against guys like Phaneuf and of course Burke. I don't like the combination of Luongo and the pressure he would face in Toronto. Does not seem productive for either side.
A guy who has played in a gold medal game on home soil and played in a game 7 SCF wouldn't be bothered by pressure in Toronto. In fact, I'd think that he would relish the challenge and the kudos if the team made the playoffs. Luongo is a pretty confident guy.

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10-18-2012, 02:08 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
As many have said...under the old CBA, if FLA or TO trades for Luongo....and then he retires, FLA or TO are not on the hook for his cap.

Under the new proposal, if FLA or TO trade for Luongo......and then he retires Van is on the hook for his cap.

How exactly do you figure FLA or TO are now going to up the offer?
Maybe it's not so much that they'll up their offers, but that Gillis will up his asking price, and their offers will climb, at least a little, to compensate.

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10-18-2012, 02:09 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
A guy who has played in a gold medal game on home soil and played in a game 7 SCF wouldn't be bothered by pressure in Toronto. In fact, I'd think that he would relish the challenge and the kudos if the team made the playoffs. Luongo is a pretty confident guy.
Granted, but how good is his state going to be after basically being demoted in the playoffs? Maybe I am reading too much into that, but I have never seen anything like that happen before.

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10-18-2012, 02:10 PM
  #345
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Maybe it's not so much that they'll up their offers, but that Gillis will up his asking price, and their offers will climb, at least a little, to compensate.
Gillis' asking price will likely rise. But, teams looking to acquire Luongo likely won't see it in the same light, and likely won't want to up what they're willing to offer.

This is why I think its more plausible now than ever to believe Luongo will at least start the season (Whenever that is....) with the Canucks.

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10-18-2012, 02:11 PM
  #346
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Dubnyk was really very good from January on. If they fail to make the playoffs, I doubt the blame will be on Dubey. Some of the veterans need to step up to the plate this year.
I had season tickets to the Blazers when Dubnyk played there and watched him through his career closely since. Nice kid, but does not have NHL starting caliber legs. Too slow. He'll continue to get lit up going accross the net. If he carves out a an Alex Auld type of career, he should be happy.

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10-18-2012, 02:14 PM
  #347
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Granted, but how good is his state going to be after basically being demoted in the playoffs? Maybe I am reading too much into that, but I have never seen anything like that happen before.
I don't think Luongo lacks confidence. In all honesty I know that Toronto is as much of a fish bowl, if not more, than Vancouver. The expectations in Toronto though are completely different. I don't see that as an issue.

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10-18-2012, 02:15 PM
  #348
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Im sure this options been tirelessly thrown around on Canucks forums - but what do you guys think about trading Schneider instead? If Lou gets traded + retires in 4-5 year years that will = half a decade of eating 5.3 million of his caphit for NOTHING.

Meanwhile, trade Schneider who will fetch a FAR better return because of his age, contract, and upside, try and win NOW. Eddie Lack is by all means capable of becoming a legit NHL backup and maybe more and hes still young.

The Sedins wont be able to carry Vancouver forever - and Kesler "could" be another major offseason surgery away from never returning to that 2011 playoff beast form (see Wendell Clarks premature aging because of playing like a tazmanian devil).

If a great return was out there for Schneider id trade him. Keep Lou, get a top 6 winger and a 1st for Schneider, use the cap-space to flip that pick for a need at the trade deadline, and go all in for a cup.

The Northwest division isnt going to be the small-bus of the NHL much longer. Canucks have a window of 2 years to seal the deal before Edmonton ****-chokes that division for a decade.

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10-18-2012, 02:17 PM
  #349
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Kulemin, Blacker, Scrivens and a 1st

For

Luongo

Kulemin - depending on who he's playing with is capable of putting up 2nd line numbers, if he's slumping he's the perfect 3rd liner. Beast along the boards, strong on the puck.

Blacker - a good prospect, projected to be a top 4 d-man

Scrivens - Goalie prospect, will need time in the minors. Could be the starter on the Moose

1st round pick - deadline trading chip for immediate help? The next Tyler Seguin?


With those new proposed rules hopefully being in place, I don't see how luongo's contract can negatively effect his value.

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10-18-2012, 02:19 PM
  #350
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Im sure this options been tirelessly thrown around on Canucks forums - but what do you guys think about trading Schneider instead? If Lou gets traded + retires in 4-5 year years that will = half a decade of eating 5.3 million of his caphit for NOTHING.

Meanwhile, trade Schneider who will fetch a FAR better return because of his age, contract, and upside, try and win NOW. Eddie Lack is by all means capable of becoming a legit NHL backup and maybe more and hes still young.

The Sedins wont be able to carry Vancouver forever - and Kesler "could" be another major offseason surgery away from never returning to that 2011 playoff beast form (see Wendell Clarks premature aging because of playing like a tazmanian devil).

If a great return was out there for Schneider id trade him. Keep Lou, get a top 6 winger and a 1st for Schneider, use the cap-space to flip that pick for a need at the trade deadline, and go all in for a cup.

The Northwest division isnt going to be the small-bus of the NHL much longer. Canucks have a window of 2 years to seal the deal before Edmonton ****-chokes that division for a decade.
I think the Luongo ship has already sailed. There's been enough said publicly at this point to know that Luongo's time in Vancouver is nearing an end.

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