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The Lockout Thread: Good Things Come To Those Who Wait

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10-18-2012, 04:24 PM
  #626
Vagrant
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There is so much misdirection out there being created by the players. We've seen NONE of these offers yet. We've seen the NHL's offer in writing because they released it themselves. If Bettman says there was no 50/50 offer, I believe him. He basically said they scrapped the NHL's olive branch of an offer and came with their own numbers.

I honestly can't believe it. The owners have been the only side moving in these negotiations if you look at the percentage of revenue that has been moving from 43% to 47% to 50%. What concessions have the PA made? Any at all?

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10-18-2012, 04:30 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
We've seen the NHL's offer in writing because they released it themselves.
Anyone out there help me out with a link to that offer?

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10-18-2012, 04:33 PM
  #628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geehaad View Post
Anyone out there help me out with a link to that offer?
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=643570

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10-18-2012, 05:00 PM
  #629
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I'd like to tell Donald Fehr and the NHLPA to take a long walk off of a short pier.

And believe me, if I wasn't worried about karma and all that, I'd tell them to go do something else.


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10-18-2012, 05:08 PM
  #630
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Preview of the next year:

1. NHL cancels 20 games
2. Players tweet about how NHL got huge concessions last time, so players aren't giving up anything this time
3. Players tweet about how they were perfectly willing to play under previous CBA but were locked out
4. Players tweet about how they lose $1.3B in NHL proposal
5. Repeat 2-4 six dozen times per day
6. Having been supplied with nothing but raw Donald Fehr talking points for a month and unable to figure out how to order a pizza online, 28 players starve to death
7. NHL resubmits 50-50 proposal
8. NHLPA responds with 14 different proposals, half of which define HRR as "whatever". Gary Bettman tells press how ridiculous this is while violently shifting his eyebrows. Fehr responds by pointing out that Major League Baseball's CBA does not mention hockey-related revenue whatsoever, so the definition is open to interpretation.
9. NHL cancels rest of season
10. Joffrey Lupul applies for a job as a columnist at The Hockey News, is accepted, and automatically becomes smartest writer despite writing at a third grade level

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10-18-2012, 05:25 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by MD View Post
Fehr says he thinks 50% isnt a fair deal. see you guys next season

Edit: Apparently this was one of the proposals...



if thats not fair, im not sure what is


Talk is that the 50/50 would only be reached in the last year of the CBA and then only if all of the projections go exactly as planned. So basically--it wasn't really 50/50

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10-18-2012, 11:02 PM
  #632
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I'm not "pro owner" in the sense of actually having any love for them. But it's pretty damned obvious which side of this negotiation has been stalling since the springtime, and therefore which side will be the most directly responsible for lost games.

And for that, I simply cannot give the players any benefit of the doubt. If they really wanted to play, they could have made it happen by now. Instead they threw their lot in with Fehr, who had probably decided by May that he intended to arrive at this juncture.

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10-19-2012, 07:39 AM
  #633
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This is a scenario where the owners/Bettman screwed themslves by touting revenue growth for the last 7 years. If they weren't trying to spin how damn healthy the league was by taking advantage of the fact that many people don't know that revenue doesn't equal profit, they wouldn't be in a situation where Fehr can stand at a podium and say how revenue is higher than ever. He's using the NHL's own retoric against it which I can't blame him for.

What I can and will blame him for is not working off the owners proposal and telling the owners how they should do revenue sharing. I don't care if you think it's better for the league, the owners can share their revenue however they damn well please because it's their piece of the revenue and they own the Hoffman league.

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10-19-2012, 10:44 AM
  #634
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Originally Posted by ONO94 View Post
Talk is that the 50/50 would only be reached in the last year of the CBA and then only if all of the projections go exactly as planned. So basically--it wasn't really 50/50
That was the basis of one of the proposals. Another one, apparently, is like LeBrun reported: 50/50 split, but honoring all the current contracts. No salary rollbacks.

Which would work...except that'd bring the salary cap down drastically and put a lot of teams over the cap immediately. Which would simply mean teams like Nashville and the Islanders would be getting good players for scrap, simply because they have space and teams need to cut it.

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10-19-2012, 12:36 PM
  #635
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It's impossible to have 50-50 and honor all current contracts unless there's significantly more growth over the course of the next CBA than there was over the last.

And if there's not? Owners are screwed. It's a suicidal bet to make and it probably took about half a second to reject. The only reason Fehr proposed it because he knew most fans wouldn't understand what it really meant, but the optics would look good. This is a proposal that they put together over lunch and didn't even run the numbers on. Might as well just have written "**** you" on a half-used napkin.

The NHLPA is completely retarded and hopeless. It's so sad and so fun to watch. This is more enjoying than most of last year's playoffs.

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10-19-2012, 12:50 PM
  #636
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It's impossible to have 50-50 and honor all current contracts unless there's significantly more growth over the course of the next CBA than there was over the last.

And if there's not? Owners are screwed. It's a suicidal bet to make and it probably took about half a second to reject. The only reason Fehr proposed it because he knew most fans wouldn't understand what it really meant, but the optics would look good. This is a proposal that they put together over lunch and didn't even run the numbers on. Might as well just have written "**** you" on a half-used napkin.

The NHLPA is completely retarded and hopeless. It's so sad and so fun to watch. This is more enjoying than most of last year's playoffs.
The players are getting no concessions. They are being given less money, with shorter contracts and a longer road to free agency. There isn't any collective bargaining going on here. Even in the last lockout when the players got royally screwed, they at least got some free agency concessions. To say that one side or the other is in the wrong here isn't seeing the whole picture.
The NHLPA has to understand that they are going to lose money now and in the future, they just need to figure out what they can get out of the owners. (Hint: It rhymes with a share of shmixspansion fees)

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10-19-2012, 12:52 PM
  #637
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It'd be fun to watch if it weren't preventing hockey games from happening. With neither side apparently treating the other with any ounce of respect with regards to intelligence, it's just sad.

Both sides still don't seem to realize they can't "trick" the other side to accepting a bias proposal by using legal jargon. They're both lawyers with years of experience doing exactly what they're attempting here. It's about time both sides realize this. You can't con a conman.

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10-19-2012, 01:45 PM
  #638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Summer Ruutu View Post
It's impossible to have 50-50 and honor all current contracts unless there's significantly more growth over the course of the next CBA than there was over the last.

And if there's not? Owners are screwed. It's a suicidal bet to make and it probably took about half a second to reject. The only reason Fehr proposed it because he knew most fans wouldn't understand what it really meant, but the optics would look good. This is a proposal that they put together over lunch and didn't even run the numbers on. Might as well just have written "**** you" on a half-used napkin.

The NHLPA is completely retarded and hopeless. It's so sad and so fun to watch. This is more enjoying than most of last year's playoffs.
This. Took the words right out of my mouth actually.

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10-19-2012, 05:06 PM
  #639
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Hard to side with the people who doled out giant contracts they had no intention of honoring.

50/50 split with some prorated cap hits seems fair to me. May not get to actual 50/50 as fast as the owners want, but that seems like reasonable punishment for making deals they had no intention of keeping.

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10-19-2012, 05:19 PM
  #640
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Originally Posted by wallym View Post
Hard to side with the people who doled out giant contracts they had no intention of honoring.

50/50 split with some prorated cap hits seems fair to me. May not get to actual 50/50 as fast as the owners want, but that seems like reasonable punishment for making deals they had no intention of keeping.
Disagree. Every deal written prior to the expiration of the previous CBA fit neatly within the limits of that CBA. Those deals were driven by teams trying to get better in the madness of free agency. Unfortunately, that CBA is now ancient history. New rules are about to be put into place and salary adjustments for ALL players are likely to be made.

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10-20-2012, 06:08 AM
  #641
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i would recommend a plan of action to Fehr, involving a cheesewire, a ton of super glue, and a tall building

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10-20-2012, 01:51 PM
  #642
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http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ter-to-players

In a surprising move, Donald Fehr has released the 3 proposals in an open letter to the players.

The principle behind the first two is the same. The overall number that the players receive rises over the next several years. In the first proposal, the share rises from a fixed number- 1.98 B to 2.06 B over three years. After three years, that number is frozen until league wide revenues reach 4.12 B, at which point the players receive a float 50% share.

The second one is the same, with a percentage (24.7%) of HRR increase used to increase the player's share until that share reaches 50% of 4.12 B.

The third one, as already noted, is an immediate switch to 50-50 split on the condition that the owners honor all current contracts. Which is mathematically impossible (and I for one would like to hear Fehr try to justify the numbers).

Overall, it isn't hard to see why Gary Bettman rejected these proposals faster than a new meth lab pops up in Raleigh. The first two are not only reliant on the overall revenue of the League increasing, but increasing at a rate much faster than years past.

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10-20-2012, 02:25 PM
  #643
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It's just simply not possible to make proposals with guaranteed shares based off of any set revenue amount, that's the first issue I have with what Fehr's doing with these proposals. The second, as you mentioned, is that it's flat out not a realistic growth model.

It shouldn't be too hard to figure out, just stick with the current cap (ensuring that current contracts are honored) until revenue hits the point that it would be 50/50, then adjust from there. The players won't take that because it doesn't ensure growth in their salaries though. Likewise the owners probably wouldn't take it because there's no guarantee that revenues would hit that point where it would be 50/50 (though it's almost certain to happen IMO). It's going to take one side or the other making a concession like that from either side to get this thing done any time soon IMO.

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10-20-2012, 02:29 PM
  #644
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It's just simply not possible to make proposals with guaranteed shares based off of any set revenue amount, that's the first issue I have with what Fehr's doing with these proposals. The second, as you mentioned, is that it's flat out not a realistic growth model.

It shouldn't be too hard to figure out, just stick with the current cap (ensuring that current contracts are honored) until revenue hits the point that it would be 50/50, then adjust from there. The players won't take that because it doesn't ensure growth in their salaries though. Likewise the owners probably wouldn't take it because there's no guarantee that revenues would hit that point where it would be 50/50 (though it's almost certain to happen IMO). It's going to take one side or the other making a concession like that from either side to get this thing done any time soon IMO.
Apparently, Bettman said that, if the players accept the other concessions that the owners want (longer ELC, longer path to UFA), then there is some room to negotiate on the terms of the split of HRR.

Personally, I can see room for compromise very soon on this issue. Indulge my optimism, but I would not see be incredibly surprised to see a deal reached before the 25th deadline.


Last edited by Finlandia WOAT: 10-20-2012 at 02:37 PM.
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10-22-2012, 05:34 PM
  #645
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My buddy that I go to Hurricanes games with called me this morning to see if I had heard the big news...

I expected a CBA and all I got was a Hurney firing.


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Old
10-23-2012, 12:20 PM
  #646
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First time chiming in on this BS.

I'm not on either side, but the players are more on my **** list at the moment.

They have yet to give anything. They just want want want like spoiled rich brats. Atleast the owners have changed their proposal.

When the league made that last proposal, it seemed so easy for the Players to take that proposal and tweak. Negotiate off that proposal. But what do the asshats do, make 4 proposals that make them look like they are all on crack.

Also whatever happened to the "I don't play the game for money, I play the game because I love it." REALLY!!!!!!!

And so glad the players finally **** on twitter. I was seriously going to hurt every single one of them when they went on their tweet tangents after thei ridiculous proposals.

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10-23-2012, 12:42 PM
  #647
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First time chiming in on this BS.

I'm not on either side, but the players are more on my **** list at the moment.

They have yet to give anything. They just want want want like spoiled rich brats. Atleast the owners have changed their proposal.

When the league made that last proposal, it seemed so easy for the Players to take that proposal and tweak. Negotiate off that proposal. But what do the asshats do, make 4 proposals that make them look like they are all on crack.

Also whatever happened to the "I don't play the game for money, I play the game because I love it." REALLY!!!!!!!

And so glad the players finally **** on twitter. I was seriously going to hurt every single one of them when they went on their tweet tangents after thei ridiculous proposals.
Neither side is going about this properly, so lets get that piece out of the way first.

The players haven't "given" anything but the owners haven't either. They moved off their original proposal which really really really screwed the players to a new offer that only really screws the players. The owners current proposal reduces salaries, increases the age for free agency, and limits contract lengths. The only thing that the players "get" is an appeals process for suspension that doesn't end with Bettman.

What the players should be doing is working off the owners proposal, because it is after all, their league. Coming up with their own half baked ideas on how the owners should disburse their money isn't going to happen while Jeremy Jacobs has anything to say about it. A more gradual decline to 50/50 and relaxing the FA rules they are trying to pass should be the goal here. I'm not sure the players see it that way though.

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10-24-2012, 06:05 AM
  #648
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Originally Posted by wallym View Post
Hard to side with the people who doled out giant contracts they had no intention of honoring.

50/50 split with some prorated cap hits seems fair to me. May not get to actual 50/50 as fast as the owners want, but that seems like reasonable punishment for making deals they had no intention of keeping.
This is exactly the point that makes me have minimal sympathy for the way the owners have approached this. On July 1, about half the owners in the league were trying to sign two players to the exact type of contracts that they are saying are now killing the league. No matter what the new CBA will stipulate, the owners will immediately look for loopholes to circumvent the rules that they are locking out the players to get.

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10-24-2012, 06:27 AM
  #649
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This is exactly the point that makes me have minimal sympathy for the way the owners have approached this. On July 1, about half the owners in the league were trying to sign two players to the exact type of contracts that they are saying are now killing the league. No matter what the new CBA will stipulate, the owners will immediately look for loopholes to circumvent the rules that they are locking out the players to get.
Those two contracts didn't kill the league. It was Skinner's contract that ruined the league and is causing the lockout. I know because I saw this on the main board so it must be true.

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10-24-2012, 06:42 AM
  #650
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Those two contracts didn't kill the league. It was Skinner's contract that ruined the league and is causing the lockout. I know because I saw this on the main board so it must be true.
You sad, sad, man. No soup for you.

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