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CBA Negotiations II: This is the song that never ends...

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Old
10-18-2012, 04:30 PM
  #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
exactly. maybe the owners offer wasnt ideal but it was a step in the right direction. The players came in and seem to want more then what they had in the last CBA. its like throwing lighter fluid on a camp fire. Now its a raging inferno burning out of control.
The owners arent willing to negotiate? what would you call demanding more then what you had the last time? Do the players care about the fans? on the surface it would appear not so much.
Neither side really cares about the fans.

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10-18-2012, 04:32 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
I don't really agree. The owners know the best they can get is 50-50, so they started with that in this offer, and then used that "concession" to leverage in the contract restrictions. I don't see how that's a leap of faith.

A reasonable deal would be something close to 50-50 but that left all those out.
50/50 is the industry standard set by the NFL and NBA. The NHL didn't pull that number out of a hat. 50/50 is going to happen one way or the other, the PA could have tried to negotiate the best deal they could and get 82 games in. Instead they seem content to continue to play hard ball and try to break the NHL owners.

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10-18-2012, 04:36 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Do we know what the players offered at all?

If we don't, it seems a bit of a stretch to take Bettman's poll-tested statements as true, right?



As long as the owners box is pelted with rotten fruit as well.
no we dont. just saw on the business board tho the players want 1.91 billion in year 1(last year 1.87)
I really needed to vent. this whole thing is just so ******* frustrating.


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Neither side really cares about the fans.
ive had that feeling all along.

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10-18-2012, 04:36 PM
  #229
Jack de la Hoya
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
50/50 is the industry standard set by the NFL and NBA. The NHL didn't pull that number out of a hat. 50/50 is going to happen one way or the other, the PA could have tried to negotiate the best deal they could and get 82 games in. Instead they seem content to continue to play hard ball and try to break the NHL owners.
I don't think we disagree as much as you think we do, but if we're going to go with 50/50 for the sake of adhering to the other league, then should ELC's be capped at 3 years? Should they be capped at $1.3 or whatever they are? Should we allow performance bonuses? What about franchise players tags? 10/5 veto rights?

Where does it stop?

Also, I'm a bit annoyed that Bettman's first stop was at the press, and I suspect some of the details he dropped weren't in their full context.

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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
no we dont. just saw on the business board tho the players want 1.91 billion in year 1(last year 1.87)
If you imposed 57 percent on this year's antipated revenues, what does that come out to in real $ terms? (I have no idea, but I suspect it is more than 1.9 billion, right?)

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10-18-2012, 04:38 PM
  #230
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Last one out, turn off the lights, will ya? See ya next October. Maybe.

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10-18-2012, 04:41 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Last one out, turn off the lights, will ya? See ya next October. Maybe.
I've rigged our forum up to steal our power from the Rangers Forum. We can leave the lights on. And the refrigerator door open.

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10-18-2012, 04:47 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
I've rigged our forum up to steal our power from the Rangers Forum. We can leave the lights on. And the refrigerator door open.
Excellent, 'cause I need to sleep with the tv on.

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10-18-2012, 04:56 PM
  #233
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Can't they bring in a third party to help fairly negotiate this thing? It seems like every time they get together on their own, one side leaves after an hour with their feelings hurt and they don't talk for two weeks.

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10-18-2012, 04:59 PM
  #234
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Can't they bring in a third party to help fairly negotiate this thing? It seems like every time they get together on their own, one side leaves after an hour with their feelings hurt and they don't talk for two weeks.
Both sides are scared of what a fair deal would look like.

If Fehr had Frank ******* Luntz as his pollster, he'd be leaning more heavily on the rights that the owners are trying to roll back, and skirt the revenue issue.

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10-18-2012, 05:03 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Last one out, turn off the lights, will ya? See ya next October. Maybe.
Eh, I'm sure the season will be saved, even if it's not the full 82 games. When it'll really come down to it, the sides will budge and work out a deal. Didn't the NHL say they'll only have two more two-week game cancellations before cancelling the whole season? I think we'll get another one of those two, and then they'll work it out.

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10-18-2012, 05:07 PM
  #236
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So, according to Fehr, at least three of the proposals dropped players share to 50/50 over the length of the CBA, contingent on other factors.

The optimist in me wants to point out that we now have formal proposals from both sides getting to the same end point, and that they are fighting over how quickly to get there, and how to do it.

Is that a reach?

Fehr also said that the NHL's proposal was a take-it-or-leave it offer, which Bettman essentially confirmed by stating that they weren't speaking the same language, even though the NHLPA offered to get to 50/50 over time and with conditions.

I'm just pointing that out for those who have suggested that the intransigence is nearly all on the players' side.

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10-18-2012, 05:08 PM
  #237
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so looks like were back to square 1

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10-18-2012, 05:16 PM
  #238
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That sounds far more reasonable.

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10-18-2012, 05:22 PM
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
So, according to Fehr, at least three of the proposals dropped players share to 50/50 over the length of the CBA, contingent on other factors.

The optimist in me wants to point out that we now have formal proposals from both sides getting to the same end point, and that they are fighting over how quickly to get there, and how to do it.

Is that a reach?

Fehr also said that the NHL's proposal was a take-it-or-leave it offer, which Bettman essentially confirmed by stating that they weren't speaking the same language, even though the NHLPA offered to get to 50/50 over time and with conditions.

I'm just pointing that out for those who have suggested that the intransigence is nearly all on the players' side.
the starting and ending points dont seem to be anywhere near what the NHL is looking for. Sounds like the NHLPA wants to start at 57 and drop down to 50 in the final year based on conditions. conditions that sound unattainable or unrealistic according to the NHL.
Of course we dont know what those conditions are. If Fehr and the NHLPA are even consitering wanting a cap free NHL thrn you can kiss the NHL goodbye for at least a season. maybe more.

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10-18-2012, 05:30 PM
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
the starting and ending points dont seem to be anywhere near what the NHL is looking for. Sounds like the NHLPA wants to start at 57 and drop down to 50 in the final year based on conditions. conditions that sound unattainable or unrealistic according to the NHL.
Of course we dont know what those conditions are. If Fehr and the NHLPA are even consitering wanting a cap free NHL thrn you can kiss the NHL goodbye for at least a season. maybe more.
They haven't asked for a cap-free league, as far as I know.

The growth numbers weren't crazy, right? Mostly, they wanted current contracts guaranteed and a scaled down reduction to 50-50 over the term. The owners want an immediate drop to 50/50. Most of us assumed it would end up being something like 54/53/52/51/50/50 or 53/52/51/50/50/50. If you're feeling optimistic, there's room to read that into the two proposals.

That said, I have no idea why they stopped talking after an hour.

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10-18-2012, 05:36 PM
  #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
They haven't asked for a cap-free league, as far as I know.

The growth numbers weren't crazy, right? Mostly, they wanted current contracts guaranteed and a scaled down reduction to 50-50 over the term. The owners want an immediate drop to 50/50. Most of us assumed it would end up being something like 54/53/52/51/50/50 or 53/52/51/50/50/50. If you're feeling optimistic, there's room to read that into the two proposals.

That said, I have no idea why they stopped talking after an hour.
during Fehr's presser he was reffering to MLB as a model. which to me points to a cap free league being part of the equasion.
Sounds like they are further apart then they were before yesterday. Or as someone stated earlier back to square 1.

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10-18-2012, 05:45 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
during Fehr's presser he was reffering to MLB as a model. which to me points to a cap free league being part of the equasion.
Sounds like they are further apart then they were before yesterday. Or as someone stated earlier back to square 1.
That's possible. It also means a luxury tax. Which has both benefits and downsides.

I don't see why the NHL should be able to invoke the "good" aspects of the other league's CBAs without having to acknowledge that those revenue splits came at some cost to the owners on other issues. (Football is a bit of an outlier, of course).

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10-18-2012, 05:46 PM
  #243
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im with the owners the players just dont get it....

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10-18-2012, 05:48 PM
  #244
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This was sooooo orchestrated by the league. Let's put out a somewhat decent offer, then we'll put it on our website to show how we aren't hiding anything. Then, when the first counter offer comes along we'll shoot it down and talk about how disappointed we are with the PA.

Not falling for it one bit.

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10-18-2012, 05:50 PM
  #245
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could the NHL hire replacement players? I mean can they say the hell with the NHL PA will get a whole new group of players

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10-18-2012, 05:52 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by BleedOrange View Post
im with the owners the players just dont get it....
Why? 50/50 seems fair on the surface, but they still have to take a pay cut. Who is ever happy with taking less money?

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10-18-2012, 05:52 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
This was sooooo orchestrated by the league. Let's put out a somewhat decent offer, then we'll put it on our website to show how we aren't hiding anything. Then, when the first counter offer comes along we'll shoot it down and talk about how disappointed we are with the PA.

Not falling for it one bit.
Exactly. Bettman played the PR game perfectly on this one.

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10-18-2012, 05:53 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by PHILOUDELPHIA View Post
could the NHL hire replacement players? I mean can they say the hell with the NHL PA will get a whole new group of players
No, labor laws in Canada and probably the US prohibit it.

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10-18-2012, 05:54 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
This was sooooo orchestrated by the league. Let's put out a somewhat decent offer, then we'll put it on our website to show how we aren't hiding anything. Then, when the first counter offer comes along we'll shoot it down and talk about how disappointed we are with the PA.

Not falling for it one bit.
Frank Luntz. King of insincere and largely meaningless gestures of action.

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10-18-2012, 05:58 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by PHILOUDELPHIA View Post
could the NHL hire replacement players? I mean can they say the hell with the NHL PA will get a whole new group of players
Not unless the players struck.

And no one is going to pay $1,000 bucks to see a bunch of former ECHLers.

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