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10-18-2012, 04:24 PM
  #551
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Originally Posted by scramble91 View Post
The key word is gradually getting to 50/50. NHL basically implies that the current model is broke and need the 50/50 now. Players union says they will gradually conceded to 50/50 over the course of 5-6 years. So with growth factored in across the 5-6 years, the players aren't giving up anything now, just the growth money in years 5-6. I hope they release the proposals so I can see if that's what they are doing.
You forgot the best part...The growth has to be around 7% yearly for that to happen. Good luck finding a way to incrasing league profits by ~30%.
Ofcorse I expect that the NHLPA has probably AGAIN proposed the year 5 rollback to just 57% they make right now.

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10-18-2012, 04:25 PM
  #552
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And there goes my faith down the toilet.

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10-18-2012, 04:33 PM
  #553
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I feel bad for everyone involved with the NHL except the Owners and Players. I'd like to fart on all of their faces collectively.

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10-18-2012, 04:33 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by Minor Boarding View Post
You forgot the best part...The growth has to be around 7% yearly for that to happen. Good luck finding a way to incrasing league profits by ~30%.
Ofcorse I expect that the NHLPA has probably AGAIN proposed the year 5 rollback to just 57% they make right now.
Well thats why i really want to see the details for all 3 proposals.


In Fehrs press conference he used some interesting (i found funny) words. Also i added my Fehr translator

Proposal 1- "eventually" get to 50/50- in 10-15 years
Proposal 2- "will get" to 50/50 with 5% growth- in year 7
Proposal 3- this is the fishy one, players will be at 50/50 as long as they honor the contracts signed by the players. - we were tired and didnt know what other bs to put in here.

I would bet that each of these has some enron accounting associated with them, which is why im dying to see the details. I just love that Toews and Crosby were behind Fehr in the presser, like that will sway my opinion on this whole situation.

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10-18-2012, 04:35 PM
  #555
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Having been through this recently as a union rep I understand the players side here. As a fan I am unhappy. Really though, the owners are requiring the players to take a 7 percent dip without offering anything in return. In fact the owners are asking the pkYers to put themselves at risk this year by cramming games in order for the owners to not lose more money. The owners are requiring the plAyers to bail them out for bad mistakes they have made in the past. Bad business plan and poor spending habbits. The players know that with the revenue made this year there should be no way for the NHL to not make money if they built this right. Bad business plan and once again the lower people are taking the heat for it.
That's good perspective. We all know negotiations are give and take.

I am hoping the players proposals were bluffs to attempt more owner concessions in the next few days.

I don't think they are as far off as the mood from today. I have a feeling Bettman thought they were closer than they were. The players would be follish not to try to try to wiggle a little more out of the owners.

This will hopefully be a very interesting next 7 days

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10-18-2012, 04:43 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by no name View Post
Having been through this recently as a union rep I understand the players side here. As a fan I am unhappy. Really though, the owners are requiring the players to take a 7 percent dip without offering anything in return. In fact the owners are asking the pkYers to put themselves at risk this year by cramming games in order for the owners to not lose more money. The owners are requiring the plAyers to bail them out for bad mistakes they have made in the past. Bad business plan and poor spending habbits. The players know that with the revenue made this year there should be no way for the NHL to not make money if they built this right. Bad business plan and once again the lower people are taking the heat for it.
How about employment that pays them an average of $2.3m for 9 months of work?

I'll be a "lower person" and take all the heat for only $1.5m. (or even less if you push it)

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10-18-2012, 04:50 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by The Dingo View Post
That's good perspective. We all know negotiations are give and take.

I am hoping the players proposals were bluffs to attempt more owner concessions in the next few days.

I don't think they are as far off as the mood from today. I have a feeling Bettman thought they were closer than they were. The players would be follish not to try to try to wiggle a little more out of the owners.

This will hopefully be a very interesting next 7 days
The problem is that there is dozens of leagues for players to be paid at a nice wage. Many of which are closer to home. The players don't need this as much as people believe. The owners do not really need it either if we are to believe most teams are either losing money or breaking even. Every owner is making money elsewhere and is using the NHL as a long term investment.

The owners played this exactly as I would have expected. They intially offer 43 % to players. They then go in last second and create public sympathy and offer a 50/50 split and it looks like they are giving. In reality they are taking 7% plaus asking for things from the players. They have offered the players absolutely nothing.

This doesn't look to be going anywhere.

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10-18-2012, 04:53 PM
  #558
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
How about employment that pays them an average of $2.3m for 9 months of work?

I'll be a "lower person" and take all the heat for only $1.5m. (or even less if you push it)
Not to mention that there are plenty of companies that have asked for (or forced) paycuts with no strings attached. I took a 10% cut in my past with no qualms, as i would rather have a job and do what i love to do.

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10-18-2012, 04:57 PM
  #559
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The problem is that there is dozens of leagues for players to be paid at a nice wage. Many of which are closer to home. The players don't need this as much as people believe. The owners do not really need it either if we are to believe most teams are either losing money or breaking even. Every owner is making money elsewhere and is using the NHL as a long term investment.

The owners played this exactly as I would have expected. They intially offer 43 % to players. They then go in last second and create public sympathy and offer a 50/50 split and it looks like they are giving. In reality they are taking 7% plaus asking for things from the players. They have offered the players absolutely nothing.

This doesn't look to be going anywhere.
Please fill us in which league is willing to pay Redden, Gomez, Komisarek, Finger their contracts.
Fill me in which european league would pay 7mio$+ to Doughty/Kopitar/Richards/Carter etc.?

Bud Holloway was one of the best players in the SWE Eliteserien and he gets paid less then 400 000 USD...
And even in the KHL there are less then 5 players that make 5mio$+ .
Most of those teams have their budget around 20mio$.

Here for more.

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10-18-2012, 04:57 PM
  #560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
How about employment that pays them an average of $2.3m for 9 months of work?

I'll be a "lower person" and take all the heat for only $1.5m. (or even less if you push it)
Why is it when the players push for the best possible deal, it's greed, and when it's the owners, it's making "smart business decisions." Let's be honest here people, no one here actually knows what's in the NHL's books. One can assume that we have a group of teams that are raking in the revenue and subsequent profits, and another groups who are struggling financially. There is no reason why this has to be a one-sided negotiation where the players are the only one's who are forced to give up significant concessions. The NHL's best proposal had the players giving up 7% in yearly revenues, increased free agency years, lowered guaranteed entry level contracts, capped contract lengths at 5 years, changed the arbitration system, lowered the cap significantly, and eliminated re-entry waivers. What did the players get in all of this? Where is the negotiating here? Can someone answer this question?

To those who say the players should go out and start their own league.. Give me a break. Professional sports is not like other businesses. You can't just create a new 3.5 billion dollar business out of thin air. There has to be some give and take from both sides, and until the NHL offers something that provides SOME incentive to the players, this is all just posturing on their part.

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10-18-2012, 04:58 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
How about employment that pays them an average of $2.3m for 9 months of work?

I'll be a "lower person" and take all the heat for only $1.5m. (or even less if you push it)
They get paid a lot because they can do what 99.999 percent of people can't do. When you can do what nobody else can your services are priceless. I understand it's hard for us to understand because we are not in their boat, but the players have done everything asked of them and in return they take the cash that their bosses gave them.

it's just not fair to begrudge anyone on earth for taking the money that their unique skill has earned them. Yes, it was earned. This is nothing but the owners demanding the players to bail out their mistakes. There is no other way to look at it. This is not like other lockouts in other sports.

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10-18-2012, 05:02 PM
  #562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minor Boarding View Post
Please fill us in which league is willing to pay Redden, Gomez, Komisarek, Finger their contracts.
Fill me in which european league would pay 7mio$+ to Doughty/Kopitar/Richards/Carter etc.?

Bud Holloway was one of the best players in the SWE Eliteserien and he gets paid less then 400 000 USD...
And even in the KHL there are less then 5 players that make 5mio$+ .
Most of those teams have their budget around 20mio$.
No league will do this. My point is that unlike other sports lockouts, the players have options where they can make a fine wage while in many cases being closer to home.

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10-18-2012, 05:07 PM
  #563
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Unbelievable.

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Old
10-18-2012, 05:08 PM
  #564
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No league will do this. My point is that unlike other sports lockouts, the players have options where they can make a fine wage while in many cases being closer to home.
Yeah that fine wage would be 10x less then what they make in the NHL. In some cases even less $$. And most of the Biznassties would get 50-80k a year. There is your lockout winner.

Would you rather play for the guys paying you millions or the guys playing you a couple of hundred thousand USD?

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10-18-2012, 05:11 PM
  #565
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Why is it when the players push for the best possible deal, it's greed, and when it's the owners, it's making "smart business decisions." Let's be honest here people, no one here actually knows what's in the NHL's books. One can assume that we have a group of teams that are raking in the revenue and subsequent profits, and another groups who are struggling financially. There is no reason why this has to be a one-sided negotiation where the players are the only one's who are forced to give up significant concessions. The NHL's best proposal had the players giving up 7% in yearly revenues, increased free agency years, lowered guaranteed entry level contracts, capped contract lengths at 5 years, changed the arbitration system, lowered the cap significantly, and eliminated re-entry waivers. What did the players get in all of this? Where is the negotiating here? Can someone answer this question?

To those who say the players should go out and start their own league.. Give me a break. Professional sports is not like other businesses. You can't just create a new 3.5 billion dollar business out of thin air. There has to be some give and take from both sides, and until the NHL offers something that provides SOME incentive to the players, this is all just posturing on their part.
How about playing in the NHL at all ........ See this is where people get into trouble...

Thinking you are worth more than you are. That is exactly why I closed my small company. When my employes felt I should pay them more than what they are worth(too me and my company).

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10-18-2012, 05:13 PM
  #566
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Cheering for strangers. Getting emotional about a corporate logo. Being annoyed by the posturing of two groups fighting over billions of dollars that I'll never see a penny of.

Completely irrational on my part.

Play a full season, play half a season, don't play at all, cancel the next two years, 50/50, 55.3754/44.6246, cap, no cap....both sides are beating the care out of me. I'll be back though, whenever, if there is a league. Next week. Next month. Next year. Can't say I like that about myself though.

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10-18-2012, 05:13 PM
  #567
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Originally Posted by Minor Boarding View Post
Yeah that fine wage would be 10x less then what they make in the NHL. In some cases even less $$.

Would you rather play for the guys paying you millions or the guys playing you a couple of hundred thousand USD?
You are either missing the point or purposely sidestepping it in order to be argumentative. There are other options that will buy the players more time. They don't have to run back. Many of them are making a good wage while being closer to home. The point is that unlike other sports, the players have other options. I'm not sure how we are not on the same page.

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10-18-2012, 05:16 PM
  #568
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You are either missing the point or purposely sidestepping it in order to be argumentative. There are other options that will buy the players more time. They don't have to run back. Many of them are making a good wage while being closer to home. The point is that unlike other sports, the players have other options. I'm not sure how we are not on the same page.
I think his point is, where are the rank and file players going to go ?

They make up the majority of the union....They are not going to get six figure contracts anywhere but the NHL.....

They might not even get a contract to play hockey at all(outside of the NHL).

Will Crosby be fine ? sure...But who the hell is going to pay Jarett Stoll 3mill........Let alone Six figures....

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10-18-2012, 05:19 PM
  #569
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How about playing in the NHL at all ........ See this is where people get into trouble...

Thinking you are worth more than you are. That is exactly why I closed my small company. When my employes felt I should pay them more than what they are worth(too me and my company).
This is completely different circumstances. Partly because your employees are replaceable. Also, You refused to pay because it would not make good business sense. The NHL paid these guys and are making money off their faces and blood and squishy brains. That is invaluable.

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10-18-2012, 05:22 PM
  #570
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I think his point is, where are the rank and file players going to go ?

They make up the majority of the union....They are not going to get six figure contracts anywhere but the NHL.....

They might not even get a contract to play hockey at all(outside of the NHL).

Will Crosby be fine ? sure...But who the hell is going to pay Jarett Stoll 3mill........Let alone Six figures....
Like I said, nobody will pay them all of that. But Stoll would get paid, thus not making them so eager to cave as soon as other sports unions would.

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10-18-2012, 05:26 PM
  #571
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Like I said, nobody will pay them all of that. But Stoll would get paid, thus not making them so eager to cave as soon as other sports unions would.
My personal opinion.

The reason NHL players hold out longer is....They are better with their money.

NFL/NBA/MLB players on average are broke three years after retirement(some are broke while still playing).

The vast majority of NHL players will not be playing hockey at all if the season is cancelled. But it doesn't hurt them as much cause they save for battle's like this.

The Euro leagues are already Draconian about teams adding NHL players. Soccer is about the only sport, you can make equal pay playing across the entire world.

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10-18-2012, 05:26 PM
  #572
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They get paid a lot because they can do what 99.999 percent of people can't do. When you can do what nobody else can your services are priceless. I understand it's hard for us to understand because we are not in their boat, but the players have done everything asked of them and in return they take the cash that their bosses gave them.

it's just not fair to begrudge anyone on earth for taking the money that their unique skill has earned them. Yes, it was earned. This is nothing but the owners demanding the players to bail out their mistakes. There is no other way to look at it. This is not like other lockouts in other sports.
yeah, this is the ONLY sport that has had to cancel an entire season.

It's also the poorest of the big 4 sports.

The players also get guaranteed contracts.

Yet when the majority of owners are losing money, they can't throw them a bone so they can make a profit too?

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10-18-2012, 05:53 PM
  #573
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yeah, this is the ONLY sport that has had to cancel an entire season.

It's also the poorest of the big 4 sports.

The players also get guaranteed contracts.

Yet when the majority of owners are losing money, they can't throw them a bone so they can make a profit too?
The Owners are worth many hundreds of millions of dollars. Most of the teams in the league turn a profit. They own an asset that is worth a few hundred million dollars. Why is it the players responsibility to throw the owners a bone when it was the owners who escalated contract prices to where they are now. You cannot be for the market dictating how an individual should be paid, and then complain that the market has paid out contracts you deem to be to rich. How anyone can feel sorry for the owners in this situation is beyond me. Players have a limited career to make as much money as they can so they can be comfortable after their playing careers are over. The Owners may have to sell one of their yachts or vacation homes because they deem their NHL team to be a "losing investment" (which by the way is extremely arguable). It is mind-boggling to me how anyone can think in this situation that the players are the greedy ones in all of this.

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10-18-2012, 05:57 PM
  #574
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The Owners are worth many hundreds of millions of dollars. Most of the teams in the league turn a profit. They own an asset that is worth a few hundred million dollars. Why is it the players responsibility to throw the owners a bone when it was the owners who escalated contract prices to where they are now. You cannot be for the market dictating how an individual should be paid, and then complain that the market has paid out contracts you deem to be to rich. How anyone can feel sorry for the owners in this situation is beyond me. Players have a limited career to make as much money as they can so they can be comfortable after their playing careers are over. The Owners may have to sell one of their yachts or vacation homes because they deem their NHL team to be a "losing investment" (which by the way is extremely arguable). It is mind-boggling to me how anyone can think in this situation that the players are the greedy ones in all of this.
If most of the teams in the league turned a profit. We wouldn't be in another lockout.

more like 8 to 12 teams make money, and don't want to pay the (whole revenue share) to other teams to stay afloat. They want the players too(shared sacrifice).


Last edited by damacles1156: 10-18-2012 at 06:12 PM.
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10-18-2012, 06:00 PM
  #575
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Why is it the players responsibility to throw the owners a bone when it was the owners who escalated contract prices to where they are now.
So if the owners were to get together, without the players, and figure out how to keep contract prices down, that would be cool?

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