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2012 CBA & Re-alignment: Lockout in Effect. Thanks Gary/Donald! PART II

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Old
10-18-2012, 05:34 PM
  #326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHOOTANDSCORE View Post
It isn't all that unreasonable for the players popularity to plummet after they take a hardline that continues to put the season in jeopardy.
While I agree with this, I guess I just see the owners doing the exact same thing, just dressing it up nicer.

In my various reading on this whole **** show, I've read that the NHL was always aiming for something around 50/50. So in a sense, it's their hardline. Their strategy was then to throw out the ridiculous 43 offer initially, so that when they arrive at 50/50, they come up smelling like roses w/ the fans.

It's all ******** in the end. Just interesting to see how public opinion swings around

I'm strongly considering just unfollowing everyone hockey related on Twitter and just ignoring the whole thing the rest of the way

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10-18-2012, 05:55 PM
  #327
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I'm so frustrated.

**** the PA. Seriously.

50/50 isn't good enough? Screw you.

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Old
10-18-2012, 05:58 PM
  #328
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Kevin Westgarth @KWesty19:
Bettman's characterization of our proposal is false. We achieve 50% in every option presented.

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10-18-2012, 06:02 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Mordax View Post

I'm strongly considering just unfollowing everyone hockey related on Twitter and just ignoring the whole thing the rest of the way
I have been unfollowing every player who RTs about the news today or still is under the deluded belief they could be playing under the old CBA while negotiating.

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10-18-2012, 06:07 PM
  #330
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I have been unfollowing every player who RTs about the news today or still is under the deluded belief they could be playing under the old CBA while negotiating.
They could be. Players would like to keep their share at 57% as it was under the old CBA. There would be no incentive for them to strike.

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10-18-2012, 06:07 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Mordax View Post
Kevin Westgarth @KWesty19:
Bettman's characterization of our proposal is false. We achieve 50% in every option presented.
None of it guaranteed. All of it using fuzzy math.

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10-18-2012, 06:10 PM
  #332
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Offers according to Aaron Ward: http://www.pghsports.net/2012/10/18/...-nhlpa-offers/

1. Set dollar values in Years 1-2-3 for player compensation. Years 4-5, value set at whatever is higher (50% of HRR or year 3 number) and 50/50 in effect.

2. Players hang on to current compensation BUT only take 24.7% of all growth. At NHL estimated growth of 5%, over 5 years you get to 50/50.

3. Day 1 starts at 50/50, remove 12.28% only to SET cap, benefits, escrow (estimated 87%) number only. Players make full face value of negotiated contracts.

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10-18-2012, 06:11 PM
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordax View Post
While I agree with this, I guess I just see the owners doing the exact same thing, just dressing it up nicer.

In my various reading on this whole **** show, I've read that the NHL was always aiming for something around 50/50. So in a sense, it's their hardline. Their strategy was then to throw out the ridiculous 43 offer initially, so that when they arrive at 50/50, they come up smelling like roses w/ the fans.

It's all ******** in the end. Just interesting to see how public opinion swings around

I'm strongly considering just unfollowing everyone hockey related on Twitter and just ignoring the whole thing the rest of the way
Don't get me wrong, I completely agree. What started my shift was a good pr move by the nhl to publicly release their offer and terrible decisions by Fehr and some players to ridicule the offer. Twitter is the players' enemy right now. I'm sure both sides are still posturing but I'm quickly losing faith in the nhlpa's sincerity.

IMO, the only way for the nhlpa to recover is to make their offers public and that only works if they were genuine counter-proposals.

It is interesting, I just hate that we miss hockey because of it.

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10-18-2012, 06:16 PM
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
They could be. Players would like to keep their share at 57% as it was under the old CBA. There would be no incentive for them to strike.

The PA was asked to start negotiating in November and said no, the season was going on. What makes you think they'd want to negotiate during this season? They'd play under the old CBA which they're more than happy with though they complain about it, reject all NHL offers and if they didn't strike, we'd be back to where we are now next summer. No thanks.

Also, the NHL has said no to this multiple times. Players need to get it through their thick skulls and move on from that idea.

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10-18-2012, 06:22 PM
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHOOTANDSCORE View Post
It is interesting, I just hate that we miss hockey because of it.



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10-18-2012, 06:23 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by KaylaJ View Post
I have been unfollowing every player who RTs about the news today or still is under the deluded belief they could be playing under the old CBA while negotiating.
Me too. My father lives and breathes baseball. I'm old enough that when I was a little girl, little league was boys only ... I'm his only child and he still coached little league. He is not a fan of Fehr, at all. When Fehr made his statement about playing under the old CBA while negotiating my father just laughed, albeit bitterly. Said that he's glad he's not a hockey fan, because having the same man ruin two sports he loved might give him a persecution complex

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10-18-2012, 06:39 PM
  #337
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Even though they remain pretty far apart. They need to bring in some independant top economic guys/girls to brainstorm ideas of how the players get to keep thier salaries AND teams get the cutting costs measures they need/want.

They don't need a mediator per se just fresh new ideas.

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10-18-2012, 06:39 PM
  #338
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Have to give it to Fehr & Bettman they are good at what they do. Fehr is at a disadvantage given he has to keep a bunch of players together to not play their game & make money but some how he fires them up. Bettman just has to keep a group of millionaires & billionaires together for the goal of making money. One of those is going to crack before the other.

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10-18-2012, 06:42 PM
  #339
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If the NHL truly did not redefine HRR to be a smaller pie, then offer 50%, I think it's crap the players didn't at least start there and then go to the FA stuff as the give-and-take part. I'm getting close (with where I'm at in my life and what's truly important in the world) to saying "hey I watched sports for 40 years and that's fine... time to grow up and move on to things that are actually important." Would be a shame to lose what I consider to be one of the last respectable forms of entertainment on television (Root not withstanding), but it's the truth. These people have no perspective on the real world.

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10-18-2012, 06:42 PM
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
They could be. Players would like to keep their share at 57% as it was under the old CBA. There would be no incentive for them to strike.
What happened last time Donald Fehr lead a union that was playing on an expired CBA? You have to know this.... You really cannot be that delusional.

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10-18-2012, 06:43 PM
  #341
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Those Billionaires probably have pretty strong ideas of how things should be done, I'm sure keeping most of the players in line isn't too difficult right now but it will get difficult as a full season lockout looms larger and larger.

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10-18-2012, 06:47 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Have to give it to Fehr & Bettman they are good at what they do. Fehr is at a disadvantage given he has to keep a bunch of players together to not play their game & make money but some how he fires them up. Bettman just has to keep a group of millionaires & billionaires together for the goal of making money. One of those is going to crack before the other.
Bettman also has a responsibility to the integrity of the sport itself and the competitive balance of the league. It isnt entirely about money, if you look at the details of the NHL's proposal most of it consisted of closing loopholes that big market teams were exploiting. The players have no care for competitive balance, they just want as much money as they can make. So yeah, from their perspective they're all about the cash while the NHL's side is much more nuanced.

It's a source of frustration that people conveniently leave that out when they just simplify it down to sides battling over money. The Players various proposals all involve allowing big markets to maintain and expand their dominance.

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10-18-2012, 06:52 PM
  #343
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I still believe it is all posturing.
The more I absorb all of this the more I agree. Everything is a negotiation.

Maybe I just want it to be true.

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10-18-2012, 06:53 PM
  #344
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Also I think the NHLPA should shut the players up. It's totally clear that Sid and most of them don't really understand the "nuances" as being described here. They just talk in cliches and vagaries and it's not helpful to fans or anyone else. Just shut up and let the businessmen and lawyers figure it out. Most of them haven't so much as passed a management 101 class so I truly don't want to hear from them at times like this.

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10-18-2012, 07:05 PM
  #345
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^Someone tweeted Pacioretty saying not so nice things about the PA and Max responded with:

if what we do is so easy why don't you buy skates and tryout for an NHL team? I have devoted my whole life to my job

...cause, y'know, that always helps...


Quote:
Originally Posted by DegenX View Post
Me too. My father lives and breathes baseball. I'm old enough that when I was a little girl, little league was boys only ... I'm his only child and he still coached little league. He is not a fan of Fehr, at all. When Fehr made his statement about playing under the old CBA while negotiating my father just laughed, albeit bitterly. Said that he's glad he's not a hockey fan, because having the same man ruin two sports he loved might give him a persecution complex
I was a Braves fan but the strike just turned me off of baseball for years and yup, ATL winning the WS the next year didn't help. I'd watch a game here and there cause nothing else was on during the summer, but it took me until only recently to get to watching again. Oddly enough because TBS no longer shows Braves games and I'm not about to pay for baseball, I now follow the Astros

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10-18-2012, 07:06 PM
  #346
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What a difference a few hours make. Would not be surprised if the season is cancelled at this rate. If I was an owner, I'd want a full season or no season at all. If they cancel the season, they will get better terms than what they just offered. Owners probably figure why not wait it out and get what we really want rather than give some concessions on what they want and not even play a full schedule.

This is the first I've felt that a lost season is really possible, though I had my doubts once the NHLPA hired Fehr, the same guy who cancelled a season in a sport much, much, much, much more lucrative than the NHL.

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10-18-2012, 07:08 PM
  #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordax View Post
Offers according to Aaron Ward: http://www.pghsports.net/2012/10/18/...-nhlpa-offers/

1. Set dollar values in Years 1-2-3 for player compensation. Years 4-5, value set at whatever is higher (50% of HRR or year 3 number) and 50/50 in effect.

2. Players hang on to current compensation BUT only take 24.7% of all growth. At NHL estimated growth of 5%, over 5 years you get to 50/50.

3. Day 1 starts at 50/50, remove 12.28% only to SET cap, benefits, escrow (estimated 87%) number only. Players make full face value of negotiated contracts.
1 depending on the fixed numbers and 3 looks like rubbish, but 2 could potentially be something to negotiate from. It still looks to me like there should be a middle way between PA#2 and the owners suggestion to make something out.

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10-18-2012, 07:08 PM
  #348
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i'm glad the presidential election is coming up, it's replaced hockey as the thing i follow the most.

but once that's over, i don't know what i'll do.

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10-18-2012, 07:17 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by Sivek View Post
What a difference a few hours make. Would not be surprised if the season is cancelled at this rate. If I was an owner, I'd want a full season or no season at all. If they cancel the season, they will get better terms than what they just offered. Owners probably figure why not wait it out and get what we really want rather than give some concessions on what they want and not even play a full schedule.

This is the first I've felt that a lost season is really possible, though I had my doubts once the NHLPA hired Fehr, the same guy who cancelled a season in a sport much, much, much, much more lucrative than the NHL.

Baseball still hasnt recovered from the damage he has caused it. Remember back when it used to be our national past time and hands down the #1 sport in the country? Football has overtaken it since then and even basketball has made inroads to where it's almost on par with it. Baseball has been the only one that has declined and you can absolutely point to that moment where Fehr lead his players to strike during a season and canceling the playoffs. What it lead to was a league that couldnt police it's own players with reasonable drug testing which ended up tarnishing an entire generation of players and record breakers. Salary expenditure differences that range from the extreme of NY Yankees of 200+ mill a season to the Pirates at 30 mil a season.

He broke that sport and now his sights are on our hockey.

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10-18-2012, 07:24 PM
  #350
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The only positive I take from today was the third offer as Fehr described it (the other two -- taking 3 or 5 years to get to 50% is pretty bogus... they can get concessions elsewhere). I don't see anything wrong with asking all existing contracts to be honored then going straight to 50/50 as the owners define HRR (that is a concession by itself).

Why not?? Make Liarpold and those guys pay up what they offered in those big money deals this summer. Hold them to THEIR OWN AGREEMENTS. I can't see how the owners would argue that's unfair or "way off". It's the dog food you prepared owners, just like always. Now you eat it.

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