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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part IV (UPDATE: "The Union took a step backward")

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Old
10-18-2012, 05:43 PM
  #826
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Yeah, you garner that from reading it. But Bettman stepped to the podium yesterday and said we are going to honor all contracts with deferred comp. He swayed opinion greatly. Fair, unfair, they should have seen it coming considering future CBAs change, whatever. Bettman earned a lot of cache yesterday by implying contracts were guaranteed. They weren't. If he said yesterday, "50/50 but anything over the threshold is subject to escrow", a lot of people would have been prepared for this let down. When we figured out the language of the clause, we expected the players to fight it.
I hear you on Bettman's wording. That's sneaky. I didn't watch his call. And for the record I despise the man.

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I don't know, the players are losing ground on every issue. If they want to protect the inked deals, I think they are entitled to seek it. The math was done, it's appx 54% of expected revenue this year. Maybe 51-51% next year.

I think we would all respect owners showing restraint. We respect the new provisions for those aims. But to go crazy with record deals and then whine that they are too high... They could have bargained in good faith, and we are looking at salaries being about 52% of next year's revenue. Especially with that Weber deal, and all of the signing bonuses/lockout provisions. Get past this season and real dollars owed will plummet next summer.
I don't begrudge them for trying to seek it. And I don't respect or agree with the actions of the owners this Summer.

If your numbers are correct (54% owed to PA this year, 51% next year with reasonable growth rates), I wish that the PA would have negotiated within the NHL's framework to get to those numbers. Instead of proposing these deals which only really served to poke the hornet's nest.

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10-18-2012, 05:53 PM
  #827
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How about the players get their salaries they make, which is 10 times what I make and the owners get the revenue they make and that's it. I get a salary at my job, I don't get extra revenue for every student we have in school. I mean come on they already make a ton of money with salary. I guess every person who works under a boss should ask for extra revenue based on what happens there. If I worked at Burger King, should I make extra revenue on every milkshake sold. Its ridiculous.

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10-18-2012, 05:53 PM
  #828
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Not all players honor their contracts either. I present to you Scott Gomez

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10-18-2012, 05:54 PM
  #829
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Whenever this CBA is signed, they have to have the new one expire before July 1st of the final year. That will put an end to any possible issues with contracts signed before expiration and gives them a ton of time to work out a new deal before training camp is supposed to start. Makes no sense to have it expire in mid September.

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10-18-2012, 05:55 PM
  #830
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Sacrifice a little of your vanity.

"We will have to work after we retire from hockey". What a hardship. What a terrible hardship.

Its not your league. The league offered you 50%. What business offers its employees 50%.

This is not on the (greedy) owners anymore.

Toews, Crosby, Iginla need to be taken to the glue factory like horses after their running days are done.

Especially after what Crosby said afterward. 50% isn't wanting to negotiate? This is your role model, kids. Take a good hard long look. A whiny, weasley, cheap-shotting, slew-footing, diving, greedy, petty millionare who can't compromise. My 5 year old is more mature.

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10-18-2012, 05:55 PM
  #831
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Originally Posted by Hockeyplayer99 View Post
How about the players get their salaries they make, which is 10 times what I make and the owners get the revenue they make and that's it. I get a salary at my job, I don't get extra revenue for every student we have in school. I mean come on they already make a ton of money with salary. I guess every person who works under a boss should ask for extra revenue based on what happens there. If I worked at Burger King, should I make extra revenue on every milkshake sold. Its ridiculous.
You're not one of 700 people driving a multi billion dollar industry. You're not special. Like it or not, pro athletes are special

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10-18-2012, 05:59 PM
  #832
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Originally Posted by Hockeyplayer99 View Post
How about the players get their salaries they make, which is 10 times what I make and the owners get the revenue they make and that's it. I get a salary at my job, I don't get extra revenue for every student we have in school. I mean come on they already make a ton of money with salary. I guess every person who works under a boss should ask for extra revenue based on what happens there. If I worked at Burger King, should I make extra revenue on every milkshake sold. Its ridiculous.
Like i said, these are kids' role models?

Not the working man sacrificing for his family. But millionare brats like Toews and Crosby.

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10-18-2012, 06:03 PM
  #833
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Originally Posted by Hockeyplayer99 View Post
How about the players get their salaries they make, which is 10 times what I make and the owners get the revenue they make and that's it. I get a salary at my job, I don't get extra revenue for every student we have in school. I mean come on they already make a ton of money with salary. I guess every person who works under a boss should ask for extra revenue based on what happens there. If I worked at Burger King, should I make extra revenue on every milkshake sold. Its ridiculous.
It's different because if you worked at Burger King, you are expendable. The players are essentially what make the NHL what it is. They are not expendable, therefore they can demand more.

I'm not saying they aren't being greedy, but comparing it to working at Burger King is like comparing apples and oranges.

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10-18-2012, 06:07 PM
  #834
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maybe if its 100% owners and 0% players they can then actually lower ticket prices as well. I am gonna talk to my union and tell them we want 57% of all money that comes into the school. Everyone who works at a food establishment should tell their bosses, on top of our salary all money made that night should divided up 57% going to the workers and 43% given to the bosses. Sounds fair right. I don't feel bad either for the low end guys cause they still make more in a year then I will make in 20 years.

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10-18-2012, 06:08 PM
  #835
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Originally Posted by NYRangers88 View Post
It's different because if you worked at Burger King, you are expendable. The players are essentially what make the NHL what it is. They are not expendable, therefore they can demand more.

I'm not saying they aren't being greedy, but comparing it to working at Burger King is like comparing apples and oranges.
YES. exactly. from a business and numbers POV 50% is insane, but as you said..the quality of the employees, and them not being expendable is what drives these CBA's in the NHL, NFL, MLB and NBA, and ultimatly gives them some leverage. Replacement players would affect the business product the owners are trying to sell (see NFL replacement referees)

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10-18-2012, 06:09 PM
  #836
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Yeah, the comparisons to highly skilled, difficult to replace "workers" are flawed.

The pa didn't reject the offer out of hand. None of the offers. Bettman has rejected every single player proposal before he hit the street. Its the players not negotiating? They have one sticking point: honor existing deals. Failure to incorporate that concept will be met with these results.

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10-18-2012, 06:10 PM
  #837
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Originally Posted by Hockeyplayer99 View Post
maybe if its 100% owners and 0% players they can then actually lower ticket prices as well. I am gonna talk to my union and tell them we want 57% of all money that comes into the school. Everyone who works at a food establishment should tell their bosses, on top of our salary all money made that night should divided up 57% going to the workers and 43% given to the bosses. Sounds fair right. I don't feel bad either for the low end guys cause they still make more in a year then I will make in 20 years.
Your argument is completely inaccurate and you so far off it's not even worth explaining why.

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10-18-2012, 06:12 PM
  #838
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The players aren't asking for 57%. If you refuse to accept even a basic element of the issue you should sit this one out. Go tell your mortgage company that you are reducing your payment by 12%, your expenses, due to your own spending, are too high.

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10-18-2012, 06:14 PM
  #839
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I can't believe a teacher is complaining about a union negotiating hard. Now I see how common American laws can be overlooked when it comes to bargaining.

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10-18-2012, 06:15 PM
  #840
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Go tell your mortgage company that you are reducing your payment by 12%, your expenses, due to your own spending, are too high.
Just got off the phone with them. They said they are cool with that.

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10-18-2012, 06:18 PM
  #841
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@walsha: The most important thing everyone needs to know: Fehr to Bettman: "We'll go to 50/50 tomorrow if you honor contracts already signed."
If I'm Bettman, I go.... ok.... then I want a 15 year CBA.

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Old
10-18-2012, 06:29 PM
  #842
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Darren Dreger @DarrenDreger
Don't be surprised if the NHL responds to todays meeting by announcing the cancellation of a big chunk of games...tomorrow.

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Old
10-18-2012, 06:43 PM
  #843
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Darren Dreger @DarrenDreger
Don't be surprised if the NHL responds to todays meeting by announcing the cancellation of a big chunk of games...tomorrow.
Cool Dreger.

Don't be surprised that I don't care anymore.

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10-18-2012, 06:53 PM
  #844
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went on a little bit of a rant discussing this debacle on facebook but here's what i think (not that any of you care)

RT @aaronward_nhl: NHLPA offers,big picture- 1)Set dollar values in Years 1-2-3 for player compensation.Years 4-5,value set at whatever is higher(50% or year 3 number) and 50/50 in effect. 2)Players hang on to current compensation BUT only take 24.7% of all growth.At NHL estimated growth of 5%,over 5 years you get to 50/50. 3) Day 1 starts at 50/50,remove 12.28% only to SET cap,benefits,escrow (estimated 87%) number only. Players make full face value of negotiated contracts. #TSN

here's the problem with set dollar values though. lets assume the players were to get 1.8 billion based off of 57% as calculated under the old CBA. if revenues drop to 3 billion during this full season (if it were to happen), then the players would get 62.7% of revenue. is that exactly fair to the owners? that's not what they negotiated in the original agreement either, am i right?

the salaries owed to the players need to be linked to the revenues the league brings in for this to work. assuming growth at a healthy number, we'll say 6 percent (the PA thought 7% and NHL 5%), you gradually get to 50-50.

2012-2013: Players share $1.88 billion, % of HRR is 53.7% (HRR is $3.498 billion)
2013-2014: Players share $1.88 billion, % of HRR is 50.7% (HRR is $3.71 billion)
2014-2015: Players share $1.97 billion, % of HRR is 50%, (HRR is $3.93 billion)

if the players accept a capped escrow percentage (which is reasonable) and revenues continue to grow, then there is no problem with linking the cap to revenues. until the players move off a set dollar value, then the deal doesn't get done.

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10-18-2012, 06:56 PM
  #845
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Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
went on a little bit of a rant discussing this debacle on facebook but here's what i think (not that any of you care)

RT @aaronward_nhl: NHLPA offers,big picture- 1)Set dollar values in Years 1-2-3 for player compensation.Years 4-5,value set at whatever is higher(50% or year 3 number) and 50/50 in effect. 2)Players hang on to current compensation BUT only take 24.7% of all growth.At NHL estimated growth of 5%,over 5 years you get to 50/50. 3) Day 1 starts at 50/50,remove 12.28% only to SET cap,benefits,escrow (estimated 87%) number only. Players make full face value of negotiated contracts. #TSN

here's the problem with set dollar values though. lets assume the players were to get 1.8 billion based off of 57% as calculated under the old CBA. if revenues drop to 3 billion during this full season (if it were to happen), then the players would get 62.7% of revenue. is that exactly fair to the owners? that's not what they negotiated in the original agreement either, am i right?

the salaries owed to the players need to be linked to the revenues the league brings in for this to work. assuming growth at a healthy number, we'll say 6 percent (the PA thought 7% and NHL 5%), you gradually get to 50-50.

2012-2013: Players share $1.88 billion, % of HRR is 53.7% (HRR is $3.498 billion)
2013-2014: Players share $1.88 billion, % of HRR is 50.7% (HRR is $3.71 billion)
2014-2015: Players share $1.97 billion, % of HRR is 50%, (HRR is $3.93 billion)

if the players accept a capped escrow percentage (which is reasonable) and revenues continue to grow, then there is no problem with linking the cap to revenues. until the players move off a set dollar value, then the deal doesn't get done.
So they want the reward without bearing any of the risk? Haha, that would be nice.

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Old
10-18-2012, 06:56 PM
  #846
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Originally Posted by NYRangers88 View Post
It's different because if you worked at Burger King, you are expendable. The players are essentially what make the NHL what it is. They are not expendable, therefore they can demand more.

I'm not saying they aren't being greedy, but comparing it to working at Burger King is like comparing apples and oranges.

Well that's true. But they are temporary.

The league lasts longer. The teams last longer. The owners (usually) last longer than players. The building lasts longer for the most part.

It goes both ways.

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Old
10-18-2012, 07:02 PM
  #847
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Sacrifice a little of your vanity.

"We will have to work after we retire from hockey". What a hardship. What a terrible hardship.

Its not your league. The league offered you 50%. What business offers its employees 50%.

This is not on the (greedy) owners anymore.

Toews, Crosby, Iginla need to be taken to the glue factory like horses after their running days are done.

Especially after what Crosby said afterward. 50% isn't wanting to negotiate? This is your role model, kids. Take a good hard long look. A whiny, weasley, cheap-shotting, slew-footing, diving, greedy, petty millionare who can't compromise. My 5 year old is more mature.
Ive disagreed with you a ton. But agree 100% here. Owners offered a fair 50/50 split. IF they had offered 54/46 or 53/47 then I could understand it from the players side. But you can't get more "fair" than 50/50.

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10-18-2012, 07:03 PM
  #848
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Cool Dreger.

Don't be surprised that I don't care anymore.
Yeah. Its getting old, fast. These players forget that hockey is a business above all else.

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10-18-2012, 07:27 PM
  #849
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Every year I follow hockey a little less and football a little more.

Every 5 years the game resembles less and less of the sport I fell in love with as a kid.

And every decade the sport slowly obscures its potential in North America and squanders opportunity after opportunity to grow.

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10-18-2012, 07:35 PM
  #850
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Michael Russo ‏@Russostrib

Fehr admitted in presser he didn't run #'s to Option 3. So players take to Twitter saying they offered 50/50 when union boss didn't run #'s?
Shows just how little the NHLPA wanted to end this lockout. They went into meeting with 3 plans that had no chance of success

Also plan #3 the one players are harping on is impossible to achieve 50/50 split

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