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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part IV (UPDATE: "The Union took a step backward")

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10-18-2012, 07:39 PM
  #851
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Shows just how little the NHLPA wanted to end this lockout. They went into meeting with 3 plans that had no chance of success

Also plan #3 the one players are harping on is impossible to achieve 50/50 split
Wow that's incredible.

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10-18-2012, 07:44 PM
  #852
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But here’s the key: The NHL, a source told ESPN.com, reiterated to the NHLPA in Thursday’s meeting that it is willing to play ball on that concept, that it is willing to be more flexible in trying to find a solution to keep players "whole" on their contracts.

If that sounds like an invitation from the league to continue to try to find a way on that crucial point, it is. And NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr himself hinted at wanting more clarification on the matter and you can only deduce that will invite more dialogue.

That, my friends, is where this process has any hope. Both sides have agreed that a 50-50 split of HRR is where this deal is headed in some fashion or other. Now they just have to agree on how to get there without emptying the players’ wallets.
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...e-as-they-look

Tell to the individuals on this board. That BOH board is too much. Its an emotional topic but its a business. I love the comments about playing for free. They wouldn't play for free. Fehr is going to ruin hockey. Bettman has orchestrated 3 lockouts as commissioner. Fehr wants the NHL to look like MLB. He hasn't proposed anything close to that. Some NHL owners signed players to contracts when they had zero intention of honoring but that's OK. They can't see the hypocrisy in that. The NHL needs to improve their offer.

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10-18-2012, 07:45 PM
  #853
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I was extremely hopeful and optimistic the last few days that a full season could be salvaged. After what seemed like a mostly fair proposal from the league, the PA must have really went in an opposite direction to illicit this type of response.

I blame Fehr. I'm sure the majority of the players want to get a deal done but with Fehr at the helm it seems hopeless they will play this season.

I agree the players shouldn't have to get bent over here, but with the majority of NHL teams operating in the red, I don't see how they can pretend like they don't make enough money these days.

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10-18-2012, 07:50 PM
  #854
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This impasse is less about the money and more about the PA leveling the ice in regard to the negotiations.

The PA is playing for a "win" and went out and hired a guy who they believe will lead them to "equality". Is a 50/50 split the reason he was hired? The players will show resolve.

There will be no winners when all is done. The only question is what will be the cost to the owners, players, and reputation of the sport.

This isn't BB or football. Hockey doesn't have the revenues to motivate the owners to settle.

I truly hope I misjudged all the entities.

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10-18-2012, 07:52 PM
  #855
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Originally Posted by ltrangerfan View Post
This impasse is less about the money and more about the PA leveling the ice in regard to the negotiations.

The PA is playing for a "win" and went out and hired a guy who they believe will lead them to "equality". Is a 50/50 split the reason he was hired? The players will show resolve.

There will be no winners when all is done. The only question is what will be the cost to the owners, players, and reputation of the sport.

This isn't BB or football. Hockey doesn't have the revenues to motivate the owners to settle.

I truly hope I misjudged all the entities.
Shouldn't that be the reason the owners should be motivated to settle? They aren't making nearly as much as the NBA or the NFL to begin with, so what the **** are they doing wasting the season away and losing money?

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10-18-2012, 07:54 PM
  #856
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Originally Posted by CaptCally View Post
I was extremely hopeful and optimistic the last few days that a full season could be salvaged. After what seemed like a mostly fair proposal from the league, the PA must have really went in an opposite direction to illicit this type of response.

I blame Fehr. I'm sure the majority of the players want to get a deal done but with Fehr at the helm it seems hopeless they will play this season.

I agree the players shouldn't have to get bent over here, but with the majority of NHL teams operating in the red, I don't see how they can pretend like they don't make enough money these days.
Keep the faith. There will be a season (although a bit shortened). The earth might have to be scorched and many dollars lost before the deal is done.

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10-18-2012, 07:55 PM
  #857
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Originally Posted by NvincentYvalentineR View Post
Ive disagreed with you a ton. But agree 100% here. Owners offered a fair 50/50 split. IF they had offered 54/46 or 53/47 then I could understand it from the players side. But you can't get more "fair" than 50/50.
I mean, the finer details can be worked out. But come on, 50/50.

Obviously everyone is going to have to sacrifice. Both sides. Thats life. Compromise, sacrifice, be happy with what you got. And what they've got is WAY more than what people make out in the real world.

I don't mind them taking the time to go over details and make sure this new CBA is one that will be relevant innthe future, so this doesn't happen again.

But to act like children, publicly, its embarassing as a fan.

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10-18-2012, 07:55 PM
  #858
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Originally Posted by Kreiders Underwear View Post
Shouldn't that be the reason the owners should be motivated to settle? They aren't making nearly as much as the NBA or the NFL to begin with, so what the **** are they doing wasting the season away and losing money?
It's the reason that the owners are hellbent on getting at least 50% of the pie as soon as they can.

The owners are greedy, the players are greedy, the fans are stuck watching the NBA where it's basically a forgone conclusion that it's going to be a Lakers/Thunder-Heat/Bulls final.

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10-18-2012, 07:56 PM
  #859
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Originally Posted by Kreiders Underwear View Post
Shouldn't that be the reason the owners should be motivated to settle? They aren't making nearly as much as the NBA or the NFL to begin with, so what the **** are they doing wasting the season away and losing money?
No.

The majority of owners are better off not playing the season than to accept the current proposals.

If the teams were truly profitable, they'll cave rather quickly. Dolan would cave as of yesterday.

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10-18-2012, 07:57 PM
  #860
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Shows just how little the NHLPA wanted to end this lockout. They went into meeting with 3 plans that had no chance of success

Also plan #3 the one players are harping on is impossible to achieve 50/50 split
The NHL has known about the NHLPA's concern about escrow and honoring existing contracts for months. The NHL came up with a system nobody really knows how it works. I heard John Shannon say he put a call into the NHL asking for more details about how the deferred system will work and they didn't return his phone call. Either they aren't sure of all of the details or they are confused as everyone else. Is that really a plan at ending the lockout? The PA says

Quote:
The proposal includes a “Make Whole” provision, to compensate players for the anticipated reduction in absolute dollars from last year (2011-12), to this year and next year. However, it would work like this. The Players share in subsequent years would be reduced so that this “Make Whole” payment would be made. It is players paying players, not owners paying players. That is, players are “made whole” for reduced salaries in one year by reducing their salaries in later years.
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ehr-to-players

Is that a solution for getting this done? That's what the NHL proposed. I heard it described as the future players will be paying the current players. The owners agreed to the SPCs but they don't want to honor them.

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Old
10-18-2012, 08:01 PM
  #861
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This better be the best damn CBA ever, when its done.

Or this whole fiasco was for nothing.

They need to go over player safety, including grandfathering in mandatory shields. They need to go over realignment. They need to prepare for relocations and/or expansions. Because both are inevitable.

They need to make sure everything is covered.

Not just the finances.

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10-18-2012, 08:10 PM
  #862
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Originally Posted by WhipNash27 View Post
Why doesn't the league just threaten to contract teams if something doesn't get done? Nothing would make the union **** their pants quicker than the threat of losing jobs.
It's not at all easy to get rid of teams--the League has to give back the entry fee the team paid. Your proposal hurts the players less than the owners.

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10-18-2012, 08:11 PM
  #863
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Richard Labbé @Richardlabbe:
Am told D.Fehr, on conference call with players tonite, insisted on trying to get a deal done. This is not over yet, folks.

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10-18-2012, 08:12 PM
  #864
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Originally Posted by NYRangers88 View Post
From the offer:



I'm not sure how this means current contracts would suffer a pay cut. I'm not saying your wrong, but I'll need an explanation.
the problem is that the deferred $$ will count against the players share in future years so lets say the equivalent of 2% is paid next year then next year's share instead of being 50% would really only be 48% remaining for new contracts.

so the players want to protect current deals AND protect future deals sort of have your cake and eat it too.

more i think about it while i think the concept comes across as sleazy the 'make whole' concept really isn't that bad. if players want to protect current deals then they take the risk that they will then get less as a result on their next deal if revenue doesn't go up enough. players need to take risk somewhere

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10-18-2012, 08:13 PM
  #865
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Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
Richard Labbé @Richardlabbe:
Am told D.Fehr, on conference call with players tonite, insisted on trying to get a deal done. This is not over yet, folks.
Encouraging.

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10-18-2012, 08:15 PM
  #866
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Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
I guess the fans have three choices here...

1. Optimism - Convince yourself this is all part of the process and believe that this is just Bettman negotiating away from the table. Hope they'll meet again soon.

2. Realist - Wait and see what the PA offered to the NHL today just to see how far off they truly are.

3. Pessimist - Run to nearest building and jump. Or, become a Knicks fan.
You forgot one: Just not give a damn until it's over.

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10-18-2012, 08:19 PM
  #867
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Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger View Post
You forgot one: Just not give a damn until it's over.
I think its safe to say most of us here care, though, otherwise we wouldn't all be here on the message board together.

Thats the one comforting thing about this situation, is we fans, although we get at eachothers throats more often then not, we are all in this together. And there are more of us then there are of them (owners, players).

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10-18-2012, 08:33 PM
  #868
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I asked this last time (and the answer was what I thought... They had to give) but:

What's the end game here for the players? They hold out? Lose a season? Lose two? Years of salary gone? And then sign for what? After another lost season what's to say the owners don't just throw the NFL CBA at them with those percentages, rights and lack of guaranteed contracts? What then? How much are they just hurting themselves and their future selves?

This is not to say "take the NHL's proposal and run!" But what's the end game? Maybe work a bit harder? Concede some? At all. Create some movement.

I can't see how they win this. I can't.

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10-18-2012, 08:40 PM
  #869
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Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
Richard Labbé @Richardlabbe:
Am told D.Fehr, on conference call with players tonite, insisted on trying to get a deal done. This is not over yet, folks.
and what exactly is he supposed to say?
good to know that after almost a year after being hired and a month of his players being locked out hes trying to get a deal done...welcome to the party jackhole.

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10-18-2012, 08:50 PM
  #870
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Just end this please

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Old
10-18-2012, 08:52 PM
  #871
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No other meetings are scheduled correct?

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10-18-2012, 08:53 PM
  #872
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
I asked this last time (and the answer was what I thought... They had to give) but:

What's the end game here for the players? They hold out? Lose a season? Lose two? Years of salary gone? And then sign for what? After another lost season what's to say the owners don't just throw the NFL CBA at them with those percentages, rights and lack of guaranteed contracts? What then? How much are they just hurting themselves and their future selves?

This is not to say "take the NHL's proposal and run!" But what's the end game? Maybe work a bit harder? Concede some? At all. Create some movement.

I can't see how they win this. I can't.
Yeah, it seems like a losing battle for the players. They won't ever gain what they lost back in 2005, they will just lose more, the question is how much more. Once the players see that, they will put pressure on their Messiah, Fehr and accept the 50/50 deal... (if that will still be on the table) Regardless, it looks like a lose/lose for the players.

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10-18-2012, 08:57 PM
  #873
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The hockey fan in me wants this to end, regardless of the terms. The trade unionist in me wants the players to maintain solidarity and drag it out as long as they need to in order to protect their slice of the pie.

Get 'em, Fehr.

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10-18-2012, 08:59 PM
  #874
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
The hockey fan in me wants this to end, regardless of the terms. The trade unionist in me wants the players to maintain solidarity and drag it out as long as they need to in order to protect their slice of the pie.

Get 'em, Fehr.
How can you support the players in this?

I mean, I couldn't find any reason to BEFORE this week, but now its really no contest.

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10-18-2012, 09:01 PM
  #875
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Michael Grange ‏@michaelgrange
MayB 2day got off on wrong foot bc #NHLPA 1st proposal has players getting avg of 54.5% of HRR for first 3yrs? Same as Aug14. #NHL

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