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2012 CBA & Re-alignment: Lockout in Effect. Thanks Gary/Donald! PART II

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Old
10-18-2012, 08:30 PM
  #351
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
The only positive I take from today was the third offer as Fehr described it (the other two -- taking 3 or 5 years to get to 50% is pretty bogus... they can get concessions elsewhere). I don't see anything wrong with asking all existing contracts to be honored then going straight to 50/50 as the owners define HRR (that is a concession by itself).

Why not?? Make Liarpold and those guys pay up what they offered in those big money deals this summer. Hold them to THEIR OWN AGREEMENTS. I can't see how the owners would argue that's unfair or "way off". It's the dog food you prepared owners, just like always. Now you eat it.
Elliotte Friedman tweeted this ...
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Elliotte Friedman ‏@FriedgeHNIC
Sorry, blackberry dead, wanted to mention Bill Daly's response to proposal 3. Says it is closer to 56 or 57 per cent, with $650M "hidden."
Then he was asked what was meant by hidden and how they would hide it, and he responded with this ...
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Elliotte Friedman ‏@FriedgeHNIC
@pairofdice1024 What NHL is saying is that $650 million would not be included in the revenue split, so NHLPA cannot argue it is truly a 50/50 share. But, I wonder if this kind of idea can be negotiated upon. It has potential.

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10-18-2012, 08:45 PM
  #352
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Baseball still hasnt recovered from the damage he has caused it. Remember back when it used to be our national past time and hands down the #1 sport in the country? Football has overtaken it since then and even basketball has made inroads to where it's almost on par with it. Baseball has been the only one that has declined and you can absolutely point to that moment where Fehr lead his players to strike during a season and canceling the playoffs. What it lead to was a league that couldnt police it's own players with reasonable drug testing which ended up tarnishing an entire generation of players and record breakers. Salary expenditure differences that range from the extreme of NY Yankees of 200+ mill a season to the Pirates at 30 mil a season.

He broke that sport and now his sights are on our hockey.
That hasn't been the case for at least 40 years, it's decline has mostly been because baseball fans are dying off, not because of Donald Fehr.

In regards to drug testing, both sides were quite content to ignore the issue as it led to increased interest in the late 90s and drug testing was only implemented as Congress started to get involved.

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Old
10-18-2012, 08:58 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
That hasn't been the case for at least 40 years, it's decline has mostly been because baseball fans are dying off, not because of Donald Fehr.

In regards to drug testing, both sides were quite content to ignore the issue as it led to increased interest in the late 90s and drug testing was only implemented as Congress started to get involved.
Baseball was the #1 sport in the country at the time of the Fehr lead strike. Since then it was passed by Football in dramatic fashion and is on par with Basketball. I don't know what to tell you if you cannot see the stark change that the sport underwent since that point.

Do you really believe that the drug testing issue wasnt being held up by the players union?

You seem to be content with letting Fehr lead the players through another season where they'd be on an expired CBA despite what he did with the baseball strike.

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10-18-2012, 09:03 PM
  #354
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The WS television ratings since 1984

ESPN story about MLB attendance since 94, article from 2004

"Attendance plunged 20 percent the following year, from a record average of 31,612 in 1994 to 25,260. Only this season, when crowds are averaging 30,513, has attendance approached its pre-strike level."


And from Wiki on steroids, both were against it, but it took the MLB and the Mitchell report for the PA to move on it:

The MLBPA was initially opposed to random steroid testing, claiming it to be a violation of the privacy of players. After enormous negative publicity surrounding the alleged or actual involvement of several star players in the BALCO steroid scandal, the players dropped their opposition to a steroid testing program and developed a consensus that favored testing. Under pressure from US Congress which threatened to pass a law if the MLB's drug policy was not strengthened, the baseball union agreed in 2005 to a stricter policy that would include 50-game, 100-game, and lifetime suspensions.[6]


I believe it was the MLB who hired Mitchell who did the investigation which eventually led baseball into congress


Last edited by KaylaJ: 10-18-2012 at 09:09 PM.
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10-18-2012, 09:04 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
Baseball was the #1 sport in the country at the time of the Fehr lead strike. Since then it was passed by Football in dramatic fashion and is on par with Basketball. I don't know what to tell you if you cannot see the stark change that the sport underwent since that point.

Do you really believe that the drug testing issue wasnt being held up by the players union?

You seem to be content with letting Fehr lead the players through another season where they'd be on an expired CBA despite what he did with the baseball strike.
1. Can you back that up with any statistics? Everywhere I look says that football had at least double TV ratings before the strike and there was no noticeable drop immediately following the strike.

2. Of course the players didn't want to get tested. However, Selig was happy to look the other way while HRs skyrocketed and people were following the home run record chase in 1998 and subsequent years.

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10-18-2012, 09:08 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by KaylaJ View Post
The WS television ratings since 1984

ESPN story about MLB attendance since 94, article from 2004

"Attendance plunged 20 percent the following year, from a record average of 31,612 in 1994 to 25,260. Only this season, when crowds are averaging 30,513, has attendance approached its pre-strike level."
That is a good point about the stadium attendance, as fans were less willing to pay to go to games. However, TV ratings continued their decreasing trend.

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10-18-2012, 09:11 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
That is a good point about the stadium attendance, as fans were less willing to pay to go to games. However, TV ratings continued their decreasing trend.
And you don't think the strike had anything to do with that?

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10-18-2012, 09:22 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by KaylaJ View Post
And you don't think the strike had anything to do with that?
They were decreasing before the strike and while I'm sure it didn't help ratings, there doesn't seem to be a large drop in the ratings correlating with the strike. Also, ratings have dropped even further in the past 10 years and I don't believe that is related to the strike.

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10-18-2012, 09:48 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
They were decreasing before the strike and while I'm sure it didn't help ratings, there doesn't seem to be a large drop in the ratings correlating with the strike. Also, ratings have dropped even further in the past 10 years and I don't believe that is related to the strike.
I've yet to see the ratings for MLB overall on TV before and after 94, just the World Series numbers. Do you have those?

And personally I think the ratings for the MLB continue to drop because baseball still has no cap.

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10-18-2012, 10:07 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by KaylaJ View Post
I've yet to see the ratings for MLB overall on TV before and after 94, just the World Series numbers. Do you have those?

And personally I think the ratings for the MLB continue to drop because baseball still has no cap.
No, I was looking for those.

That certainly could be part of it, I'm sure that there is less fan support in smaller-markets where there is little hope of reaching the playoffs. It wouldn't surprise me if average local ratings have dropped more so than national games due to this. However, I think that the World Series numbers signify a general drop in interest in baseball as children grow up playing and watching various other sports.

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10-18-2012, 10:09 PM
  #361
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I believe I heard that the average age of World Series watcher last year was 60.

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10-18-2012, 10:17 PM
  #362
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I don't post much here, preferring to lurk. But this strikes a nerve. I played ball through high school and was a huge Pirate fan. But I haven't paid to see a baseball game since 1994. That Fehr-led strike killed my interest in the sport, mostly because I just got out of the habit of watching games in the summer and quickly filled up my time with other things. Maybe I'm the only one, but I don't think so.

And I'll probably find ways to fill up my fall/winter/spring evenings without NHL hockey. Today's response was predictable. The season effectively ended today, IMO. **** Fehr, Bettman, the group of owners who drafted an agreement they've done their best to evade, and the players who are still fighting the last battle.

So I'm left with the Steelers and, God help me, the NBA (??)

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Old
10-18-2012, 10:34 PM
  #363
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The more I absorb all of this the more I agree. Everything is a negotiation.

Maybe I just want it to be true.
I'm obviously guessing on what I feel, but I'm not ready to panic yet. It takes a lot for me to throw logic out of the window and what I see is:

- Bettman is a liar and thinks the public is stupid.

He told us the second offer was their best and the offers would only get worse if a lockout happened. Lie #1.

He told us the NHL would not release their latest offer publicly, because it wasn't beneficial to the process. Lie #2.

He told us the third offer was their best offer (again), then suddenly tells us that it had room for things to be negotiated. Lie #3.

So basically when he talks, I laugh and put no stock in what he says.

- Fehr knows his only real leverage is threatening the 82 game season. The owners want to play a full season, but they will only call Fehr's bluff for so long. Fehr can't make a deal yet, because his best chance is at the eleventh hour... Right before all is lost and things look bleak, I believe he will make his best offer - one the league can find common ground with.

- The players stand to lose more after missing two weeks worth of games, than if they took a rollback. They are bluffing right now IMHO and won't be stupid enough to lose more money than the proposed rollbacks. I'm sure enough players from the last work stoppage have told them it isn't worth it.

- Both sides know 54-53 this season is fair for both sides. Shared sacrifice, right? It's just a matter of posturing and hoping one side folds before the eleventh hour. Unfortunately I don't see that happening, which is why I said the other day to be ready for a roller coaster ride

- Right now it is all about creating fear and posturing to get the other side to fold first. Common sense will prevail at the eleventh hour though.

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10-18-2012, 10:46 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by KaylaJ View Post
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Series_television_ratings"]
And from Wiki on steroids, both were against it, but it took the MLB and the Mitchell report for the PA to move on it:

The MLBPA was initially opposed to random steroid testing, claiming it to be a violation of the privacy of players. After enormous negative publicity surrounding the alleged or actual involvement of several star players in the BALCO steroid scandal, the players dropped their opposition to a steroid testing program and developed a consensus that favored testing. Under pressure from US Congress which threatened to pass a law if the MLB's drug policy was not strengthened, the baseball union agreed in 2005 to a stricter policy that would include 50-game, 100-game, and lifetime suspensions.[6]


I believe it was the MLB who hired Mitchell who did the investigation which eventually led baseball into congress
There were congressional hearings on steroids in baseball in 2005. The Mitchell Report came out in 2007.

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10-18-2012, 11:06 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
There were congressional hearings on steroids in baseball in 2005. The Mitchell Report came out in 2007.
Sorry, screwed that up. Meant to say something else with it but now forgot.



As for the WS ratings I think while they were already dropping like you point out, with the problems baseball was having with lack of parity, steroid accusations, and yes the strike, they fell more than the average rate, i.e. they were just as affected as the attendance. They may not have been where they were going to overtake the NFL, but they definitely lost a step they haven't gotten back. Kind of interesting considering Fehr acts like with no cap things are rosy.


Also, I'm gonna guess we won't find the TV ratings and even if we did we'd have to figure them out since back then baseball was easier to find on TV with TBS & WGN showing Braves & Cubs games. Now a lot of it you have to pay for if you don't live in the right market.

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10-18-2012, 11:42 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by KaylaJ View Post
Sorry, screwed that up. Meant to say something else with it but now forgot.



As for the WS ratings I think while they were already dropping like you point out, with the problems baseball was having with lack of parity, steroid accusations, and yes the strike, they fell more than the average rate, i.e. they were just as affected as the attendance. They may not have been where they were going to overtake the NFL, but they definitely lost a step they haven't gotten back. Kind of interesting considering Fehr acts like with no cap things are rosy.


Also, I'm gonna guess we won't find the TV ratings and even if we did we'd have to figure them out since back then baseball was easier to find on TV with TBS & WGN showing Braves & Cubs games. Now a lot of it you have to pay for if you don't live in the right market.
I couldn't find any thing on local ratings either. I only saw this chart on All-Star Game viewership but that is just similar to the World Series numbers and doesn't say anything about individual markets.


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10-19-2012, 04:22 AM
  #367
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Season Not Played is well on their way to their second Cup in 8 years.

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10-19-2012, 08:24 AM
  #368
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Here is the biggest reason to be optimistic:

Quote:
The NHL, to its credit, or more precisely NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly, came up with a creative mechanism in Tuesday’s offer that tried to address making the players "whole" in their current contracts.

Regardless of whose argument you buy on whether that mechanism flies or not, the bottom line is that the NHLPA doesn’t accept its current definition as any kind of solution.

But here’s the key: The NHL, a source told ESPN.com, reiterated to the NHLPA in Thursday’s meeting that it is willing to play ball on that concept, that it is willing to be more flexible in trying to find a solution to keep players "whole" on their contracts.

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10-19-2012, 08:37 AM
  #369
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Season Not Played is well on their way to their second Cup in 8 years.
Start of a dynasty?

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10-19-2012, 09:01 AM
  #370
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Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
I couldn't find any thing on local ratings either. I only saw this chart on All-Star Game viewership but that is just similar to the World Series numbers and doesn't say anything about individual markets.

Going by that graph I would correlate it to the removal of the reserve clause.

But really, you're not attributing any major destruction of the sport to the 94 strike? It to me is the premier evidence that a players union cares nothing about the sport it's in and cares only about their immediate gains. Baseball's dominance and legacy were ruined and tarnished exclusively at the hands of the players union. The vast majority of that destruction was done by the hands of Donald Fehr. We need to learn from history here and not hide from it.

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10-19-2012, 09:04 AM
  #371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I'm obviously guessing on what I feel, but I'm not ready to panic yet. It takes a lot for me to throw logic out of the window and what I see is:

- Bettman is a liar and thinks the public is stupid.

He told us the second offer was their best and the offers would only get worse if a lockout happened. Lie #1.

He told us the NHL would not release their latest offer publicly, because it wasn't beneficial to the process. Lie #2.

He told us the third offer was their best offer (again), then suddenly tells us that it had room for things to be negotiated. Lie #3.

So basically when he talks, I laugh and put no stock in what he says.

- Fehr knows his only real leverage is threatening the 82 game season. The owners want to play a full season, but they will only call Fehr's bluff for so long. Fehr can't make a deal yet, because his best chance is at the eleventh hour... Right before all is lost and things look bleak, I believe he will make his best offer - one the league can find common ground with.

- The players stand to lose more after missing two weeks worth of games, than if they took a rollback. They are bluffing right now IMHO and won't be stupid enough to lose more money than the proposed rollbacks. I'm sure enough players from the last work stoppage have told them it isn't worth it.

- Both sides know 54-53 this season is fair for both sides. Shared sacrifice, right? It's just a matter of posturing and hoping one side folds before the eleventh hour. Unfortunately I don't see that happening, which is why I said the other day to be ready for a roller coaster ride

- Right now it is all about creating fear and posturing to get the other side to fold first. Common sense will prevail at the eleventh hour though.
Common sense would also dictate that the person at the helm of the NHLPA has no problem running public opinion into the ground in order to get what he wants and will sabotage the sport in the process. Why you seem to only label Bettman a liar but ignore the players saying "we just wanna play hockey" pr bs is beyond me.

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10-19-2012, 09:28 AM
  #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I'm obviously guessing on what I feel, but I'm not ready to panic yet. It takes a lot for me to throw logic out of the window and what I see is:

- Bettman is a liar and thinks the public is stupid.
Correction: Bettman is a shrewd negotiator with strong understanding of PR and he KNOWS the public IS stupid. Hence, the reaction all over the internet since the NHL's proposal was put out (and rejected). This was exactly his desired effect and he knocked it out of the park. He's got at least 90% of the NHL fanbase eating right out of his hand. Throw out an offer with "50/50 split" in the headline and wait for the predictable fan response of "Wow what a great offer! If the players don't sign this immediately they're GREEDY!". Hook, line, and sinker. He knew the vast majority of NHL fans wouldn't bother to look past the "50/50" thing. And sure enough they didn't.

The rest of your post is spot on IMO.

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10-19-2012, 09:32 AM
  #373
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Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
Common sense would also dictate that the person at the helm of the NHLPA has no problem running public opinion into the ground in order to get what he wants and will sabotage the sport in the process. Why you seem to only label Bettman a liar but ignore the players saying "we just wanna play hockey" pr bs is beyond me.
That's your opinion on Fehr and the PA. It isn't a fact.

Bettman has lied three times already. Those are facts.

Big difference.

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10-19-2012, 09:38 AM
  #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMR View Post
Correction: Bettman is a shrewd negotiator with strong understanding of PR and he KNOWS the public IS stupid. Hence, the reaction all over the internet since the NHL's proposal was put out (and rejected). This was exactly his desired effect and he knocked it out of the park. He's got at least 90% of the NHL fanbase eating right out of his hand. Throw out an offer with "50/50 split" in the headline and wait for the predictable fan response of "Wow what a great offer! If the players don't sign this immediately they're GREEDY!". Hook, line, and sinker. He knew the vast majority of NHL fans wouldn't bother to look past the "50/50" thing. And sure enough they didn't.
So the public gets mad at... The players? Then they uh... Don't come to games, buy merchandise, etc and league revenues go down, affecting the owners just as much.

Ya, Bettman is shrewd.... The PR war only does damage to both sides long term.

Any negative press won't force the PA into taking a deal. If Bettman was so shrewd he would choose his words more carefully and not spout off obvious lies, one after the other.

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10-19-2012, 09:48 AM
  #375
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Common sense will prevail at the eleventh hour though.
If common sense is what you're banking on, well... I certainly wouldn't want to be in your shoes

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