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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part IV (UPDATE: "The Union took a step backward")

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Old
10-18-2012, 09:08 PM
  #876
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@michaelgrange To keep value of their contracts, they'll have to get something like 54.5, 51.7, etc. in first couple years.

Exactly what everyone around here's been saying. 54 in year one, 52 in year two, 50/50 year three and beyond.

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Old
10-18-2012, 09:14 PM
  #877
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the nhlpa can't possibly be serious with these proposals.

imo the ONLY valid proposal they made was the 1st one. players share stays froze and % drops as revenue goes up. it never guarantees 50/50 because revenue could go down or up less than 5%. add conditions that lower the players share if revenue doesn't reach 5% to account for it and maybe you have something to discuss.

proposal 2 is just proposal 1 repeats with a higher rate of growth assumed in the examples

and proposal 3. don fehr deserves to be punched in the face for that one. the plan to get down to 50/50 is to make believe the owners are paying the players 13% less than they really are? you kidding me? owners should counter 'how bout instead we make your share 37% and then you can make believe we are paying you 13% more.

i feel dirty backing gary bettman but i can't no longer even mildly back the players anymore

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10-18-2012, 09:18 PM
  #878
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It's over and done with, IMO. No significant progress or progress at all to report today, the biggest day since everything began. Things will go stale and backward from here on out. No end in sight.

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10-18-2012, 09:29 PM
  #879
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
The hockey fan in me wants this to end, regardless of the terms. The trade unionist in me wants the players to maintain solidarity and drag it out as long as they need to in order to protect their slice of the pie.

Get 'em, Fehr.
Solidarity?

How is it showing Solidarity that the stars are fleeing to Europe for $$$ and other half of union will have no job or income since they wont be gifted a roster spot in Europe?

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10-18-2012, 09:38 PM
  #880
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Solidarity?

How is it showing Solidarity that the stars are fleeing to Europe for $$$ and other half of union will have no job or income since they wont be gifted a roster spot in Europe?
Not to mention some players tweeting that they saw promising signs in the NHL proposal while some tweet that its a bad offer.

They aren't united at all.

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10-18-2012, 09:45 PM
  #881
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Not to mention some players tweeting that they saw promising signs in the NHL proposal while some tweet that its a bad offer.

They aren't united at all.
Because some of them are smart and some of them are dumb. Also, some of them care about playing more then others.

Guess which ones are smart and which ones aren't. It's simple.

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10-18-2012, 09:52 PM
  #882
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I really am curious to know if things would have gone different had the PA not gone with this whole "3 proposal system" and instead just tried to work within the NHL's framework to get to 54-52-50.

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10-18-2012, 10:03 PM
  #883
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Well they have a few days. Although Bettman (whom I no fan of either) may cancel a block tomorrow just to prove a point.

As salary goes & revenue goes, percentages get more out of whack. Sides dig in deeper to gain something from the loss. In essence this was the players stance all along. Gain something for the loss of a season & a 24% rollback.

But when the owners start asking for 52/48 to get back their lost revenue things will get really bad.

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10-18-2012, 10:06 PM
  #884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
I really am curious to know if things would have gone different had the PA not gone with this whole "3 proposal system" and instead just tried to work within the NHL's framework to get to 54-52-50.
me thinks there would have been marathon negotiations

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10-18-2012, 10:06 PM
  #885
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first off, double standards. The NHL can put out insulting deals, and players are expected to negotiate off that to get to the middle. The players make moderate proposals and they are greedy ****** because it isn't the middle. Why can't the league counter a union proposal. Gary stole parts of the last CBA from the union, he can incorporate elements of these offers. These guys are getting pushed and they are willing to go for the ride, but for some reason no one wants them to get a say on how fast. Why can't Gary come back and say, "we'll cap escrow, or we'll phase the cap to 50/50". He gets a pass when he conceives these snake-like deals. Its on the union to work with that, but the league can't figure out a way to honor contracts. Its so one way on this board... for the simple fact that the players can just cave in so fans get their fix.

News flash folks, this cycle won't end until the owners find a modicum of respect for the power of the union. The league botched this with the first offer then locks out.

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10-18-2012, 10:07 PM
  #886
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Originally Posted by Jaromir Jagr View Post
Because some of them are smart and some of them are dumb. Also, some of them care about playing more then others.

Guess which ones are smart and which ones aren't. It's simple.
That is so true ! Just stop and think how long it will take some of these 3-4th liners at the age of 33-35 and out of the game very shortly after missing a year...to recoup losing a million or two million when they are back in small town rural Canada coaching a tier 2 Jr team ??? I personally know guys that never made the money back after the last time they lost a year . Those guys have not recovered that last year of lost salary even as of today .


I think the owners should lock them out for 3 years and start with complete new rosters . The union will fall...and eventually the players will come back . I'm sure every team could fill out a roster of willing fellows that want a shot at playing in the NHL and I bet that the hockey would be very exciting and entertaining like it was in the 70's !

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10-18-2012, 10:10 PM
  #887
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
first off, double standards. The NHL can put out insulting deals, and players are expected to negotiate off that to get to the middle. The players make moderate proposals and they are greedy ****** because it isn't the middle. These guys are getting pushed and they are willing to go for the ride, but for some reason no one wants them to get a say on how fast. Why can't Gary come back and say, "we'll cap escrow, or we'll phase the cap to 50/50". He gets a pass when he conceives these snake-like deals. Its on the union to work with that, but the league can't figure out a way to honor contracts. Its so one way on this board... for the simple fact that the players can just cave in so fans get their fix.

News flash folks, this cycle won't end until the owners find a modicum of respect for the power of the union. The league botched this with the first offer then locks out.
Dude, where were you two weeks ago? This board was up in arms against Gary and the league. Fact is, things have changed since the first offer that the NHL put on the table.

Today we wanted to see the Union work off of the league's proposal, instead they kind of **** the bed. Not to mention that their third offer really makes no sense at all.

If they don't get back to the table soon, I think this 'negotiation' is going to get even uglier. This could end up being a pretty big nightmare.

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10-18-2012, 10:12 PM
  #888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
I really am curious to know if things would have gone different had the PA not gone with this whole "3 proposal system" and instead just tried to work within the NHL's framework to get to 54-52-50.
Yup.

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Old
10-18-2012, 10:14 PM
  #889
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there's a difference between having diverging opinions and mutiny. This is no where close to mutiny. Its as simple as guaranteeing signed deals. The league is getting everything else. The other leagues protected old deals with new CBAs.

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10-18-2012, 10:23 PM
  #890
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Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
Dude, where were you two weeks ago? This board was up in arms against Gary and the league. Fact is, things have changed since the first offer that the NHL put on the table.

Today we wanted to see the Union work off of the league's proposal, instead they kind of **** the bed. Not to mention that their third offer really makes no sense at all.

If they don't get back to the table soon, I think this 'negotiation' is going to get even uglier. This could end up being a pretty big nightmare.
He **** the bed with his make whole maneuver.

Would I prefer to see the union counter directly the league offer, sure. But I respect their stance. Until the league honors something as fundamental as a signed contract, the owners will be a bunch of conniving and underhanded weasels. None of this changes the fact that this is the CBA the league wanted, the one they say doesn't work, and the same one they are trying to force. We'll have the same problems in 6 or 7 years. Gary will just try to push the needle again. He's got everyone on his side, they aren't looking at him any more and asking why he's doing the same system. All the attention is on the guys losing and why they are messed up for not giving more faster.

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Old
10-18-2012, 10:26 PM
  #891
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
first off, double standards. The NHL can put out insulting deals, and players are expected to negotiate off that to get to the middle. The players make moderate proposals and they are greedy ****** because it isn't the middle. Why can't the league counter a union proposal. Gary stole parts of the last CBA from the union, he can incorporate elements of these offers. These guys are getting pushed and they are willing to go for the ride, but for some reason no one wants them to get a say on how fast. Why can't Gary come back and say, "we'll cap escrow, or we'll phase the cap to 50/50". He gets a pass when he conceives these snake-like deals. Its on the union to work with that, but the league can't figure out a way to honor contracts. Its so one way on this board... for the simple fact that the players can just cave in so fans get their fix.

News flash folks, this cycle won't end until the owners find a modicum of respect for the power of the union. The league botched this with the first offer then locks out.
everyone ripped the nhl when they made their ridiculous first offer, but they have come off that offer and closed the gap each time. the deal they offered the other day while not perfect is certainly reasonable as a starting point and the deal they should have offered months ago.

have the players moved at all? so they started off less ridiculous but what about since then?

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10-18-2012, 10:48 PM
  #892
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you CAN"T get to a 50/50 split out the gate AND honor existing contracts. Its idiotic to even say that. its mathematically impossible. it's like listening to mitt romney explain his damn tax plan. Math Mr. Fehr...it's important.

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10-18-2012, 10:49 PM
  #893
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Originally Posted by CM PUNK View Post
everyone ripped the nhl when they made their ridiculous first offer, but they have come off that offer and closed the gap each time. the deal they offered the other day while not perfect is certainly reasonable as a starting point and the deal they should have offered months ago.

have the players moved at all? so they started off less ridiculous but what about since then?
Without taking sides, I do agree with Shamrock when he said,

"News flash folks, this cycle won't end until the owners find a modicum of respect for the power of the union. ".

As, I've said before that's what I believe this negotiation will come down to:

1) The Owners arrogance believing they hold most of the cards and
2)the players are not smart enough to understand that if the owners lose the players also lose. How much does respect cost? The owners and players are sure to find out.


I am familiar with squabble within a family in regard to an estate. The family members will pay the lawyers more than they will receive in inheritance. Makes sense? Nope but they will prove to each other that they can't be pushed around.

Logic goes out the window when ego's are involved.

The nuclear winter.

I'm hoping to be proven wrong.

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10-18-2012, 11:06 PM
  #894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
first off, double standards. The NHL can put out insulting deals, and players are expected to negotiate off that to get to the middle. The players make moderate proposals and they are greedy ****** because it isn't the middle. Why can't the league counter a union proposal. Gary stole parts of the last CBA from the union, he can incorporate elements of these offers. These guys are getting pushed and they are willing to go for the ride, but for some reason no one wants them to get a say on how fast. Why can't Gary come back and say, "we'll cap escrow, or we'll phase the cap to 50/50". He gets a pass when he conceives these snake-like deals. Its on the union to work with that, but the league can't figure out a way to honor contracts. Its so one way on this board... for the simple fact that the players can just cave in so fans get their fix.

News flash folks, this cycle won't end until the owners find a modicum of respect for the power of the union. The league botched this with the first offer then locks out.
It was a month or so ago everyone was ripping the league for using the lockout as a strategy. Not as a last resort. The NHLPA was being ripped for not negotiating back in January when the owners wanted to start.

It's not a double standard. It's point counterpoint. Neither side is right. But the players are in their league... In their buildings... Playing for their teams. These kids dreamt of wearing those sweaters and scoring the goal that wins the Stanley Cup. They get paid handsomely to do so. It's a privilege, not a right.

The owners can do what they want... It sucks but its true. Players don't win, they just lose incrimentally. But at the end of the day they make out just fine. Just like they did after a cap was imposed and salaries were rolled back 24%. Salaries skyrocketed (along with ticket prices) and no one said "boo-hoo... I don't make enough."

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10-18-2012, 11:16 PM
  #895
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I think its safe to say most of us here care, though, otherwise we wouldn't all be here on the message board together.

Thats the one comforting thing about this situation, is we fans, although we get at eachothers throats more often then not, we are all in this together. And there are more of us then there are of them (owners, players).
I'm interested from an intellectual standpoint, but don't give a damn about it. Would I like to see some hockey? Honestly I'm very busy right now and don't have a lot of free time to stare at a TV, so even if the season had started on time, with the Rangers out of town until November, I wouldn't be watching full games for the most part anyway and would be here a lot less so I could have the free time to watch hockey.

And I'm not in this at all. Regardless of who wins in the next CBA my ticket prices are not going down, my cable bill will not go down, I'm not winning very much at all--except the ability to watch hockey live.

So, my attitude about this mess is Wake me when it's over. I've already paid for season tickets, I'm not going to throw them away. I spent under $50 at the Garden last year--I don't generally eat there and other than the occasion tee-shirt or stuffed toy I pick up on sale, don't buy hockey stuff since the last lockout. And I won't renew next year if the re-alignment the League proposed go through.

The next move is out of my hands.

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10-18-2012, 11:17 PM
  #896
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you CAN"T get to a 50/50 split out the gate AND honor existing contracts. Its idiotic to even say that. its mathematically impossible. it's like listening to mitt romney explain his damn tax plan. Math Mr. Fehr...it's important.
you can't get to 50/50 in year 1 and pay the existing contracts in full. owners attempted to do it with the 'make whole' deferred payments that the players didn't like, but nhlpa should have countered that with a version that works for them.

the other option is a gradual decline. but the players want 54/52/50/50/50/50 but pretend it was 50 all 6 years. what are they giving in return for the extra 6% in years 1 and 2? how bout as a giveback for being above the 3rd year dips below 50 to pull the 6 year average closer to 50%?

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10-18-2012, 11:20 PM
  #897
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I'm starting to think Bettman offered that 50/50 deal knowing the players would reject it, with the sole intention of winning the interest of the fans with the illusion he is "making an effort".
Of course Bettman did it to make the owners look like the good guys and that's why the NHL released the details so willingly. The proposal looks fair on the surface. But, as always, the devil is in the details and the details don't always tell the same story.

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10-18-2012, 11:26 PM
  #898
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Whenever this CBA is signed, they have to have the new one expire before July 1st of the final year. That will put an end to any possible issues with contracts signed before expiration and gives them a ton of time to work out a new deal before training camp is supposed to start. Makes no sense to have it expire in mid September.
Having the CBA expire after most season ticket holders in the league are either locked into payment plans or have paid their bill in its entirety makes perfect sense for owners. As usual, the joke is on the fans.

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10-18-2012, 11:42 PM
  #899
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Players should take proposal #1 and guarantee 50%. It assumes 5% growth but that isn't a given so guarantee 50% with condition that if revenue goes up less than 5% than players share gets reduced by difference. You expect it to go up more than that so minimal risk there.

And on the flip side the giveback being given to the owners is that if revenue growth exceeds 5% the players % reduces by more than expected making it a better deal for owners.

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10-19-2012, 12:01 AM
  #900
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Originally Posted by ltrangerfan View Post

Logic goes out the window when ego's are involved.

The nuclear winter.

I'm hoping to be proven wrong.
Don't hold your breath waiting because you are exactly right. It's going to be a very long winter.

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