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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part IV (UPDATE: "The Union took a step backward")

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Old
10-19-2012, 09:53 AM
  #951
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The biggest joke is teams like Boston and Minn signing players to contracts they expected not to fulfill.

These owners are a joke as well.

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10-19-2012, 09:54 AM
  #952
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Originally Posted by Antithesis View Post
Provide a shred of supporting evidence that what you consider to be "fair" for the players is anything other than completely subjective and it might hold some water as a practical policy suggestion.
Fairly? There was a lockout a few years ago. The players gave the owners everything they wanted. Should I say more?

You can't sign a CBA, contracts, make agreements, and then decide to change things every time you don't like it anymore. If you give in the 2nd time, and 3rd time, before you know it the taking will never stop. Just because the players make more money than the average joe, does not mean they should be treated in any way.

Now if you think it is fair to be greedy and take everything you can because you are the owners and you have that right, well then we need to discuss what standards we are setting to fairness. What is fair according to Capitalism, is not the same as what is fair according to common morality, or religion, etc.

I judge fairness according to the way I would like to be treated. I am a construction worker, and we are all getting hit in the economy recently, but just because I am because I really have no choice, does not mean I feel the NHLPA should have to.

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10-19-2012, 09:55 AM
  #953
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We also signed Richards to something resembling a retirement contract.

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10-19-2012, 09:58 AM
  #954
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Originally Posted by Oak View Post
Fairly? There was a lockout a few years ago. The players gave the owners everything they wanted. Should I say more?

You can't sign a CBA, contracts, make agreements, and then decide to change things every time you don't like it anymore. If you give in the 2nd time, and 3rd time, before you know it the taking will never stop. Just because the players make more money than the average joe, does not mean they should be treated in any way.

Now if you think it is fair to be greedy and take everything you can because you are the owners and you have that right, well then we need to discuss what standards we are setting to fairness. What is fair according to Capitalism, is not the same as what is fair according to common morality, or religion, etc.

I judge fairness according to the way I would like to be treated. I am a construction worker, and we are all getting hit in the economy recently, but just because I am because I really have no choice, does not mean I feel the NHLPA should have to.

Right, like I said. Youre setting a ****** precedent, whether its ****ing 100 million or 100k.

Nobody should be sitting around saying well we make more than the average person does, so let the owners win. The owners will take advantage of this every time. Theres two sides to the coin, and this is regardless of the revenue amount.

Its just more unsettling because of that amount however, so its easy to say well youre being crybabies.

No matter what is at stake, id still want an honest negotiation and the intention of my contract to be paid in full at the time it is done. The owners are worms.

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10-19-2012, 10:01 AM
  #955
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Blaming greed for negotiating problem is like blaming gravity for a plane crash. Its always going to be there.

I we see greedy in this case to mean self-interested, then both the players and the owners are, ahh, "greedy." The NHL is also a secular institution.

Getting more specifically onto what you said, you are I believe the first person I've heard say that it was the owners who won the first lockout. But as I don't know the specifics of your opinion on this, aside from your belief that the players are in the right and the owners are in the wrong, I can't really critique you any further. I would say that I disagree with your preconceptions about he nature of fairness, though. But that isn't a topic of discussion here.

I don't think its a crime for hard-working fans who have their own jobs, lives and self interests to be selfish, or not to care about the plight of the NHLPA because they want to see hockey. If you've got Keynesian sensibilities, well, then you should be focused on people in worse shape than NHL hockey players. The fans aren't responsible for being independent arbitrators, and even if they were, the NHLPA then wouldn't then accept their ruling.

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10-19-2012, 10:06 AM
  #956
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithesis View Post
Blaming greed for negotiating problem is like blaming gravity for a plane crash. Its always going to be there.

I we see greedy in this case to mean self-interested, then both the players and the owners are, ahh, "greedy." The NHL is also a secular institution.

Getting more specifically onto what you said, you are I believe the first person I've heard say that it was the owners who won the first lockout. But as I don't know the specifics of your opinion on this, aside from your belief that the players are in the right and the owners are in the wrong, I can't really critique you any further. I would say that I disagree with your preconceptions about he nature of fairness, though. But that isn't a topic of discussion here.

I don't think its a crime for hard-working fans who have their own jobs, lives and self interests to be selfish, or not to care about the plight of the NHLPA because they want to see hockey. If you've got Keynesian sensibilities, well, then you should be focused on people in worse shape than NHL hockey players. The fans aren't responsible for being independent arbitrators, and even if they were, the NHLPA then wouldn't then accept their ruling.
Really? I thought that was the consensus opinion of pretty much everyone that followed that saga. The players got bent over seven years ago.

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10-19-2012, 10:11 AM
  #957
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Maybe but I think the marginal utility of that first 10k is worth a lot more than that of the ten thousandth 10k. Fighting over costs of living, putting kids through college vs the difference between a ferrari f-50 and an f-500.

There are good kids in the ECHL playing hockey for 600 bucks a week, travelling all over, never seeing their families. Yet somehow the ECHL plays hockey every year.
My point is that people at all points on the spectrum fight over money, and just because these guys are fighting for millions instead of hundreds doesn't make their plight any more right or wrong. We can all speak in hypothetical's about how greedy the players are being, but in all honesty, would anyone here fork over 12% of their current multi-million dollar salary after being told 8 years ago that we had to fork over 25% of it?

It's just baffling to me that so many fans are up in arms about the lockout. If you're so pissed off at the parties involved, go watch the NFL, NBA, MLS, PGA, or any of the other professional sports out there. Subscribe to a season pass for the AHL or any of the Junior leagues. Stream games from overseas. There are a million options out there for you. It's easy to call everyone "greedy" from the sidelines because you really have nothing invested in the process.

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10-19-2012, 10:11 AM
  #958
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Really? I thought that was the consensus opinion of pretty much everyone that followed that saga. The players got bent over seven years ago.
Well, then I probably remembered it wrong. In any case, A year of lost revenue for the players could end up totaling much more in losses than a 12% salary reduction. Its like two people sitting there starving themselves by trying to get the other one to east something disgusting. A lose-lose situation.

What concerns me more than anything is Bob McKenzie's assertion that the lockout could go into the season after this one. The NHL isn't doing that great in the USA. It will always be solid in Canada, but consider the amount of coverage it gets even here in the northern markets of the United States. It could smell near death for our league if that happens.

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10-19-2012, 10:13 AM
  #959
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Well, you won't hear me calling the players greedy. I don't think the term means much of anything at all. But I think that free competition would do more for their salaries than the NHLPA. So I won't be singing the praises of a union that has rejected even an arbitrator.

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10-19-2012, 10:14 AM
  #960
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Why doesn't the NHL agree to make the players "whole"? The players shouldn't pay for it. The NHL proposed a program where the deferred money comes out the players end. Players paying players. Management signed these players and now they want to avoid paying the full value. The NHL will be making a ton of $ with 50-50. The majority of the existing contracts will be expiring with a couple of years. 6 or 7 year labor deal. Escrow will take a chunk in the early parts of the CBA. The NHL doesn't want to live up to their responsibilites. They should fund the "make whole" program.
really don't understand why the nhlpa didn't come back with this as a counter proposal.

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10-19-2012, 10:16 AM
  #961
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I'm not exactly thrilled with Bettman walking out after 10 minutes, and 3 lockouts in 20 years is far too many as well under his leadership. When and if we fix this problem we need to do a better job of making sure this doesn't keep happening every 7 years.

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10-19-2012, 10:16 AM
  #962
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Originally Posted by Antithesis View Post
Well, then I probably remembered it wrong. In any case, A year of lost revenue for the players could end up totaling much more in losses than a 12% salary reduction. Its like two people sitting there starving themselves by trying to get the other one to east something disgusting. A lose-lose situation.

What concerns me more than anything is Bob McKenzie's assertion that the lockout could go into the season after this one. The NHL isn't doing that great in the USA. It will always be solid in Canada, but consider the amount of coverage it gets even here in the northern markets of the United States. It could smell near death for our league if that happens.
That's really the underlying reason behind these lockouts. The league keeps running the ship aground and then digs into the players pockets to get it moving again. These lockouts exist because the league pushed hockey into markets that might not support a team. Now they expect the players to pay for that idea.

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10-19-2012, 10:18 AM
  #963
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I'm not exactly thrilled with Bettman walking out after 10 minutes, and 3 lockouts in 20 years is far too many as well under his leadership. When and if we fix this problem we need to do a better job of making sure this doesn't keep happening every 7 years.
I really hope Bettman and Jacobs and the hardliners are gone before the next CBA negotiations. I doubt that will happen but I get the feeling the league could be rolling in cash and every franchise profitable and Jacobs would be advocating for a lockout to break the players union and get a slanted deal

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10-19-2012, 10:19 AM
  #964
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Originally Posted by Antithesis View Post
Well, then I probably remembered it wrong. In any case, A year of lost revenue for the players could end up totaling much more in losses than a 12% salary reduction. Its like two people sitting there starving themselves by trying to get the other one to east something disgusting. A lose-lose situation.

What concerns me more than anything is Bob McKenzie's assertion that the lockout could go into the season after this one. The NHL isn't doing that great in the USA. It will always be solid in Canada, but consider the amount of coverage it gets even here in the northern markets of the United States. It could smell near death for our league if that happens.

I dont get this.

I thought the general concensus was the league experiencing record growth in the States? Its more popular than its ever been, yet somehow its not doing that great?

What are the reasonable expectations here? Its never overtaking American sports in popularity anyway.

I think its going to take a lot for any "death knell" to be dealt to the NHL at its current rate of growth. Not saying it cant happen (and these morons are doing a good job of ruining their own game) but as far as anything crippling, I think it would take more than whats being suggested.

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10-19-2012, 10:22 AM
  #965
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I think it's always really hard to tell how the NHL is really doing. Yes it has grown, yes it's bringing in more revenues, but there are plenty of teams that can at least claim they're operating in the red. But the waters are really muddied by details like owners who own the building their team plays in and receive all of the profits from concessions, parking, etc, and that stuff not always counting as revenue. I suspect not as many teams truly lose money for their owners as is claimed, but it's probably very difficult to prove

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10-19-2012, 10:26 AM
  #966
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I dont get this.

I thought the general concensus was the league experiencing record growth in the States? Its more popular than its ever been, yet somehow its not doing that great?

What are the reasonable expectations here? Its never overtaking American sports in popularity anyway.

I think its going to take a lot for any "death knell" to be dealt to the NHL at its current rate of growth. Not saying it cant happen (and these morons are doing a good job of ruining their own game) but as far as anything crippling, I think it would take more than whats being suggested.

Pretty simple, really:

Quote:
The NHL’s problem is the widespread disparity in profits for its 30 teams. We estimated that 18 teams lost money during the 2010-11 season in our annual look at the business of hockey. Several other teams barely eked out a profit, but the league’s most flush teams made a killing. The Toronto Maple Leafs, New York Rangers and Montreal Canadiens had an operating profit (in the sense of earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization) of $171 million combined. The other 27 NHL teams lost a collective $44 million. If you add the Vancouver Canucks and Edmonton Oilers to the fat cats ledger, profits hit $212 million with the remaining 25 teams posting a loss of $86 million.
Article here

Having a handful of teams driving the majority of the league's revenue is absolutely embarrassing. It's a result of Bettman's mission to bring hockey to markets that cannot sustain teams coupled with incompetent ownership and front-office teams. Put a team in a non-hockey market and it can succeed. Put idiots at the helm and it drags the whole league down.

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10-19-2012, 10:27 AM
  #967
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Then why are you still here?


I agree that its disappointing to watch two sides fight over billions like its nothing, but in principle, you still have to stand up for yourself, whether its 100k or 10 million.

Youre setting a precedent of allowing to be walked all over, which continues with each subsequent negotiation.
The players brought this upon themselves. As did the owners. Walked on? In what sense?

The players signed these contracts knowing full well that there was no chance in hell the contracts would be honored as is when the CBA expired.

The owners agreed to sign these contracts knowing full well they had no intention of honoring them as is when the CBA expired.

Take responsibility for your actions.

The contracts should be honored. In a sense. But the league needs to cut back salary. Its a sacrifice that has to be made. And thats life.

What concessions are the players really giving up? Its not their league.

They are paid, handsomely, for their unique skills.

How are they being walked on? For the betterment of the league they have to give up a little.

50/50 split. They won't get their full contracts. If the league is to be more healthy moving forward, the owners HAVE TO "win more" then the players. Players will come and go through this league but the league wants stability an longevity with its franchises.

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10-19-2012, 10:29 AM
  #968
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What concerns me more than anything is Bob McKenzie's assertion that the lockout could go into the season after this one. The NHL isn't doing that great in the USA. It will always be solid in Canada, but consider the amount of coverage it gets even here in the northern markets of the United States. It could smell near death for our league if that happens.
That is my assertion. If Bettman cancels a season, Fehr will be in no hurry to start the next one.

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10-19-2012, 10:37 AM
  #969
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The NHL is scared of Fehr. They don't know his end game. They are afraid he may use the legal system like he did in MLB. That's why its in their best interests to hammer out a CBA with the PA. Gradually reach 50-50 in year 3 or fund the make whole program. Its one or the other. This all goes back to the PA balking at keeping the summer upper limit at $64.3M. The NHL wants some of that money back. PA says no. The NHL will get 50-50. Just how much money will it cost for the NHL to fund the make whole program? Peanuts compared to how much the NHL could lose. $3.468B projected for 13-14 using 5% growth. The NHL has grown much more than 5% in the last 7 years. Its their choice. Its their league. They're management.

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10-19-2012, 10:43 AM
  #970
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It's the reason that the owners are hellbent on getting at least 50% of the pie as soon as they can.

The owners are greedy, the players are greedy, the fans are stuck watching the NBA where it's basically a forgone conclusion that it's going to be a Lakers/Thunder-Heat/Bulls final.
0% chance the Bulls go to the Finals with Rose on the mend and their depth evaporated.

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10-19-2012, 10:44 AM
  #971
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I think that Fehr comes out of this looking like some sort of labor god among men.

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10-19-2012, 10:47 AM
  #972
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The NHL is scared of Fehr. They don't know his end game. They are afraid he may use the legal system like he did in MLB. That's why its in their best interests to hammer out a CBA with the PA. Gradually reach 50-50 in year 3 or fund the make whole program. Its one or the other. This all goes back to the PA balking at keeping the summer upper limit at $64.3M. The NHL wants some of that money back. PA says no. The NHL will get 50-50. Just how much money will it cost for the NHL to fund the make whole program? Peanuts compared to how much the NHL could lose. $3.468B projected for 13-14 using 5% growth. The NHL has grown much more than 5% in the last 7 years. Its their choice. Its their league. They're management.
Completely agreed - though the devil is in the details.

Still, the NHL and the PA need to agree on that premise and then start hammering at those details.

They're REALLY not that far apart. A big step would be if the union went back and made proposals either on the step down or the make-whole in the context of the league's agreement. They should have done that yesterday.

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10-19-2012, 10:49 AM
  #973
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Its better that they Fehr you than they feel sorry for you. Fehr isn't going to make a deal in the summer so the NHL can resume in 13-14. The 1994 baseball strike stretched in 95 with it being a 144 game season. Fehr got the courts to basically end the strike. The owners in MLB tried replacement players and it was a disaster. The Orioles wouldn't field a replacement team. The start of 13-14 is in jeopardy if there is no CBA in the immediate future. The NHL won't be able to sell any tickets for 13-14 with the lockout still going on. Nobody will buy them. The NHL really wants to be foolish here? The players will lose and so will the owners. Some of the owners have bills to pay too. Just find a way to fund the make whole program or have a gradual decrease to 50%.

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10-19-2012, 10:52 AM
  #974
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The NHL is 3 for 3 in lockouts under Bettman. That's not Fehr's fault. Fehr negotiated 2 CBAs without losing an inning.
Fehr went five straight negotiations at one point with work stoppages with the MLB, no?

Bettman's got two more to match him.

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10-19-2012, 10:58 AM
  #975
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Pretty simple, really:



Article here

Having a handful of teams driving the majority of the league's revenue is absolutely embarrassing. It's a result of Bettman's mission to bring hockey to markets that cannot sustain teams coupled with incompetent ownership and front-office teams. Put a team in a non-hockey market and it can succeed. Put idiots at the helm and it drags the whole league down.

I dont think this is a true indicator of league-wide decline though popularity-wise, just because the top third of the league is making money. There is still record tv viewership/growth, sponsorship, attendance, etc. Most of the $$$ loss is being dragged down by a handful of teams.

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