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NHL to Expand 2 teams in Canada - THN

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Old
10-19-2012, 12:17 AM
  #601
Fenway
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Let's get something straight right now.

The new Leafs owners will happily allow a second team in TO and might allow them to play at ACC under favorable conditions.

Bell/Rogers will get the TV rights and would perhaps offer ACC as a home rink on the cheap. Bell/Rogers don't want to see another arena built to compete with non-hockey events.

In any event a second team in TO does not hurt Buffalo.

In the US the prime market is Seattle ( if the new arena is a done deal )
Kansas City has a wonderful arena but for whatever reason both the NHL and NBA do not want to go back there.

Portland, Oregon will get sniffed at as well.

Strangely enough San Francisco could be in the mix with the new Warriors arena being built under the Bay Bridge.

Quebec will have a team when the new arena opens. Everything else is in play.

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10-19-2012, 03:41 AM
  #602
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
I doubt it because any future owner of the coyotes will be bleeding money right out of the gate & you combine that with a 250 million dollar territory fee to MLSE. I doubt you will find anyone dumb enough to pay it after going through hell in Phoenix . When they can move the coyotes to Hamilton for far less money & lot less resistance from MLSE. .
The interesting thing will be if the 3000 fans that abandoned the Coyotes when the bankruptcy hit come back when they have an owner.

I still the think the smart money bet is: Rogers/Bell traded Hamilton as part of their territory for the NHL's approval of the sale and third-tier media rights) and when the two companies can't co-exist owning the Leafs, that's when we get GTA2.

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Originally Posted by gstommylee View Post
I'm not saying that Ontario wouldn't be good for another team its just its just putting other markets a side just cause they can provide a larger fee.

if both PHX stays and islanders remain in their region, relocation may not be a option unless there are other teams that become available. There is no chance Seattle gets a team via expansion as long as there are multiple cities wanting a team that can give a large expansion fee than Now you understand why i mean by ignoring Seattle.

Any shot seattle has at getting a team in the near future (2-3 years at least) phx deal has to fall apart.
Keep in mind the Seattle Arena is a "Done Deal" only in this framework: An owner has an agreement to bring an NBA team to Seattle.
Shovels don't go in the ground until the NBA team is acquired.

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Originally Posted by Fenway View Post
Let's get something straight right now. The new Leafs owners will happily allow a second team in TO and might allow them to play at ACC under favorable conditions. Bell/Rogers will get the TV rights and would perhaps offer ACC as a home rink on the cheap. Bell/Rogers don't want to see another arena built to compete with non-hockey events.

In any event a second team in TO does not hurt Buffalo.

In the US the prime market is Seattle ( if the new arena is a done deal )
Kansas City has a wonderful arena but for whatever reason both the NHL and NBA do not want to go back there.

Portland, Oregon will get sniffed at as well.

Strangely enough San Francisco could be in the mix with the new Warriors arena being built under the Bay Bridge.

Quebec will have a team when the new arena opens. Everything else is in play.
The reason for KC is because STL is #26 in revenues, and KC is smaller than STL and doesn't have 45 years of brand tradition like STL.

I don't think SF would be a good idea.
After living in California, I'm not impressed with the fan base out here for non-football (with the exception of LA Dodger and SJ Sharks fans). The Giants are winning, but the bandwagon isn't full because they're winning. It's full because it's TRENDY AND COOL to like the Giants. Like Angels fans, they don't cheer on their own and will do whatever the scoreboad says. The Giants fans hate the Dodgers because they WERE TOLD they hate the Dodgers. They actually haven't but a few pennant races, but when the teams showed up in 1958, the PLAYERS hated each other. They don't even realize that without the Dodgers, they don't have a team.

(And people out here will root for both the A's and Giants. You can't do that. That's what girls do. If you love one, you hate the other.

Houston (aside from the Les Alexander issues) would be a MUCH better option for the NHL. Whether or not it's a hockey town isn't the point. The point is that Texas is full of Texas Pride, Houston pride, and they'll go see anything if they're playing Dallas. It would draw lines across the state: Austin is Dallas' affiliate and Houston could nab San Antonio as its' affiliate. The fans in Austin/SA would root for their guys against each other and then the players would go to the NHL.

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10-19-2012, 07:06 AM
  #603
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Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
I still the think the smart money bet is: Rogers/Bell traded Hamilton as part of their territory for the NHL's approval of the sale and third-tier media rights) and when the two companies can't co-exist owning the Leafs, that's when we get GTA2.


.
sorry havent had my 4 cups of coffee yet, engines still warming up.. so you are thinking three teams in GTA, or is the Hammer still being blocked.

that would make for interesting conference alignments

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10-19-2012, 10:57 AM
  #604
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ya about Hamilton "Under NHL rules, an expansion or relocation of a team to Hamilton could potentially be blocked by the Buffalo Sabres or the Toronto Maple Leafs, because Copps Coliseum, the likely venue for a Hamilton NHL team, is located less than 50 miles from the Sabres' and the Leafs' home arenas.[25] Roughly 15% of the Sabres' business comes from residents of the area of Ontario between Hamilton and Buffalo, and the Sabres or the Leafs could require "an enormous indemnification payment" to allow an additional team to be established within a 50-mile radius."

and thats why Hamilton probably won't get a team unless the owner has really deep pockets, from articles i've read the number thrown around the last time Balsillie tried to do his thing was $100 million US...each to the Sabres and the Leafs and now the NHL is worth more so I wouldn't be surprised if it was $150 million each plus the $500 million dollar expansion fee you are talking close to a billion US dollars just to get the team plus whatever start up costs for staff, remodeling the arena, paying the players, etc. where as in Markham you will only have to pay the Leafs and there is potentially much more money to be made up there instead of in Hamilton
NO Hamilton is about 65 miles away from Buffalo & as for 15% of Sabres fans comming from Ontario is not true it is more along the lines of 10% or less & thoses fans do not come from Hamilton they come from Niagara Falls , St Catheriens , Fort Erie & Welland . Also a Hamilton NHL. teams fan base would mainly come from the Hamilton area & Southwestern Ontario with very little comming from the GTA. & Niagara region ,

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10-19-2012, 12:26 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by Fenway View Post
30-35% of Detroit STH's are from Ontario. No accident that The Joe is next to the Windsor Tunnel.

Buffalo's problem is the metro area has lost 50% of its population in 40 years. In 1970 it was the 18th largest TV market in the US - now it is (#TV homes)

50 Jacksonville 669,840
51 Buffalo 645,190
52 New Orleans 643,660
53 Providence-New Bedford 620,010
54 Wilkes Barre-Scranton-Hztn 590,740

Buffalo on its own is an AHL market.
Should Buffalo get to include Rochester as well? Assuming you include Rochester, and take away any Canadian support (which there is no way the Sabres would lose ALL of their Canadian support), Buffalo is still one of the top American markets in the league. Or can Florida only count Ft. Lauderdale, Dallas doesn't get Fort Worth, no San Fran for San Jose, etc.?

I'm offended by the notion that Buffalo is an AHL market, when it has been a stable member of this league for over 40 years. The only real blip in support was when the owner was SENT TO JAIL! Coming right back after the lockout the team had tremendous levels of support again, despite no superstar bumps (ala Ovie/Crosby).

Maybe I'm in the minority amongst Sabres fans, but I have no problem with Hamilton getting a team. I think it would add some excitement, and I really don't see it hurting the franchise (though I'll take a couple million if the league insists). Despite a general opinion that there is no "rivalry" between the Sabres and Leafs, those are easily the most fun games to go to in Buffalo every year. If there were a Hamilton team, the building would be rocking, and maybe it would just be a new franchise for us to beat in excruciating and humiliating ways.

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10-19-2012, 12:32 PM
  #606
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One more point on the Buffalo metro area...it has remained nearly the same size for the past 40 years. The city has lost a tremendous amount of its population, but it has primarily been a move to the 'burbs. It is also one of the most negatively skewed metro areas in the country, with only Erie and Niagara counties being included in the number, despite an economic impact reach far beyond those those two counties. The Bills and Sabres have both had to overcome these misleading numbers, and a general lack of understanding by outsiders of the sports demographics in WNY. Buffalo and Rochester are as close to 100% behind both teams as a city could get, and at least 50% of the Syracuse area. That's 2.5 million people, without even leaving the state.

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10-19-2012, 01:02 PM
  #607
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One more point on the Buffalo metro area...it has remained nearly the same size for the past 40 years. .
??????????

The metro area population has dropped by well over 200,000 people in the last 40 years.. thats pretty significant for a metro of it's size... and the population loss is still ongoing, in fact in the last decade has seen accelerated loses.

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10-19-2012, 01:31 PM
  #608
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Losses have evened out over the last decade, not accelerated, and to say that the metro area lost 40% of it's 1970 population is absurd. Sure there has been some loss, but for the most part it has been population loss for the city, while the suburbs have experienced growth. And way to ignore the rest of the posts which clearly demonstrate why Buffalo is a successful and viable NHL market, with or without a team in Hamilton.

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10-19-2012, 01:37 PM
  #609
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between 1990-2000 Buffalo lost 1.6% of it's population.. between 2000-2010 it lost over 3% of it's population.. so uhm yeah i'd call that accelerated losses...

where do you get 40% from.... clearly your numbers are way off what you are talking about

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10-19-2012, 01:40 PM
  #610
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The NHL's arrival in Buffalo coincides with the start of it's population decline ironically enough


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10-19-2012, 01:48 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by MarkhamNHL View Post
between 1990-2000 Buffalo lost 1.6% of it's population.. between 2000-2010 it lost over 3% of it's population.. so uhm yeah i'd call that accelerated losses...

where do you get 40% from.... clearly your numbers are way off what you are talking about
Sorry, typo I meant 50%, which was referenced from the post I quoted. And fair enough, but from 1970-1990, there was a loss of 160,000 people. So I suppose it's more accurate for me to say, over the last twenty years the loss hasn't been nearly as great as it was from the previous 20 years.

And let's blame the NBA coming (and leaving) for the decline

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10-19-2012, 01:55 PM
  #612
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sorry havent had my 4 cups of coffee yet, engines still warming up.. so you are thinking three teams in GTA, or is the Hammer still being blocked.

that would make for interesting conference alignments
If I were running the show, it would be QUE and HAM for #31 and #32. Then when Rogers/Bell couldn't get along, they split and one side keeps MLSE and one side gets a GTA expansion team (like Markham). Which means we need to go to 36 teams, so we (in phases) add Seattle, Houston and Salt Lake City.

As far as interesting alignments. For 32, take the NHL's proposed four-conference model and place:
QUE in the Adams with BOS, MON, OTT, TOR, BUF, TB, FLA.
HAM in the Norris with DET, CHI, STL, NASH, MIN, WIN, DAL
CBJ in the Patrick with NYR, NYI, NJ, PHI, WAS, CAR, PIT

Yes, I'm aware that HAM is very East of Columbus and Hamilton would make for good rivalries with BUF, TOR, etc., but they're the new guy and CBJ needs the financial benefits of the EC to their TV deal; so the Hammers are stuck in the West.

But it beats being in the AHL West.

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10-19-2012, 05:10 PM
  #613
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Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
If I were running the show, it would be QUE and HAM for #31 and #32. Then when Rogers/Bell couldn't get along, they split and one side keeps MLSE and one side gets a GTA expansion team (like Markham). Which means we need to go to 36 teams, so we (in phases) add Seattle, Houston and Salt Lake City.

As far as interesting alignments. For 32, take the NHL's proposed four-conference model and place:
QUE in the Adams with BOS, MON, OTT, TOR, BUF, TB, FLA.
HAM in the Norris with DET, CHI, STL, NASH, MIN, WIN, DAL
CBJ in the Patrick with NYR, NYI, NJ, PHI, WAS, CAR, PIT

Yes, I'm aware that HAM is very East of Columbus and Hamilton would make for good rivalries with BUF, TOR, etc., but they're the new guy and CBJ needs the financial benefits of the EC to their TV deal; so the Hammers are stuck in the West.

But it beats being in the AHL West.
I'd want Portland over Salt Lake City or Houston. Then you get a nice Cascadia rivalry going; Vancouver - Seattle - Portland. I'd be down with that.

Between SLC and Houston, the trade-offs are obvious; Houston is the largest market without an NHL team, but it is completely non-traditional and there isn't a significant hockey fanbase. However, it would give Dallas a proper rival, and Texas loves its sports. SLC is a great destination for winter sports in general, and the location lends itself to hockey. However, it has a small population and it is not the gigantic TV market that Houston is...

Personally, I've just been turned off recently by these massive non-traditional markets and I favor the smaller markets that give a damn. But there's great reasons on both sides, and perhaps the best approach would be a balanced one -- for every team you plop onto a large non-traditional market just to give you a better chance at a good national TV deal, you balance it with a couple of smaller, but more traditional, markets.

Regardless, I hope the NHL does expand (and/or relocate) to Seattle, Portland, SLC, Quebec City, Hamilton, Torontox2, and Houston.

As a Leafs fan, I feel a bit uneasy about having another NHL team in Toronto. It could become a laughing stock like some other second-fiddle teams, or it could be a real competitor to the Leafs. Regardless, as a Leafs fan, I'm not too ecstatic about it. But I realize that that the amount of money to be tapped is enormous and that the market can sustain a second NHL team easily.

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10-19-2012, 05:15 PM
  #614
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Houston is the largest market without an NHL team, but it is completely non-traditional and there isn't a significant hockey fanbase.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_Aeros_%28WHA%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_Aeros

http://aeros.com/home/

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10-20-2012, 04:25 PM
  #615
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I find this very hard to believe.

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10-20-2012, 04:39 PM
  #616
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Houston can support any franchise. Get Mark Cuban on the phone. He'll buy a team. Dallas and Houston really aren't that different in terms of their love (by love, I mean 'buying') of sports.

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10-20-2012, 04:43 PM
  #617
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Houston can support any franchise. Get Mark Cuban on the phone. He'll buy a team. Dallas and Houston really aren't that different in terms of their love (by love, I mean 'buying') of sports.
Cuban wouldn't be allowed to use AAC.... EVEN though his Mavericks are a co-tenant there, again, Houston's a non-starter unless you can convince the Wild to release the market.

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10-20-2012, 04:44 PM
  #618
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...I agree. Houston would be an excellent market. One of the wealthiest & largest in the US, and Texans' do like their hockey. Hell, might even consider Austin as well.

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10-20-2012, 04:50 PM
  #619
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Cuban wouldn't be allowed to use AAC.... EVEN though his Mavericks are a co-tenant there, again, Houston's a non-starter unless you can convince the Wild to release the market.
He could build his own arena without city funding. I think he would be a great team owner. The risk factor of allowing someone who is already a billionaire with a diverse portfolio to build his own team, his own arena, etc. without taxpayer money or involvement is nil, plus it creates jobs.

Sign here, here, and here, and Houston has an NHL team. Or they could put it in Austin. Or San Antonio. Or they could just call it 'Texas'. People would watch.

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10-20-2012, 04:53 PM
  #620
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... Houston's a non-starter unless you can convince the Wild to release the market.
HUTCH, your gonna have kdb comin atcha again over this here claim, if he see's it, which Im gonna make sure he does.

The Minnesota Wild have absolutely no claim, zero proprietary rights over Houston. They have an AHL franchise parked there and they'll either stay put or more likely relocate (Austins nice ).

Even if Minnesota DID have some kind of secret dealeo, Craig Leipold is 4Sale. He'll sell you the fake Rolex he bought in Mazatlan for five bucks for $5000. His shirt if you like it. Right off his back. Take it off & hand it to you on the street for 50,000 peso's.

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10-20-2012, 04:56 PM
  #621
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Even if Minnesota DID have some kind of secret dealeo, Craig Leipold is 4Sale. He'll sell you the fake Rolex he bought in Mazatlan for five bucks for $5000. His shirt if you like it. Right off his back. Take it off & hand it to you on the street for 50,000 peso's.
Sir, I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to curtail your humor, you've passed the acceptable standard, whereas you are only allowed to be 'sort of funny' you have entered the 'hilarious post' zone

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10-20-2012, 05:38 PM
  #622
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Losses have evened out over the last decade, not accelerated, and to say that the metro area lost 40% of it's 1970 population is absurd. Sure there has been some loss, but for the most part it has been population loss for the city, while the suburbs have experienced growth. And way to ignore the rest of the posts which clearly demonstrate why Buffalo is a successful and viable NHL market, with or without a team in Hamilton.
1970 Buffalo 1,349,211
2010 Buffalo 1,134,039

net loss 215,172 16%


http://recenter.tamu.edu/data/pop/popm/cbsa15380.asp

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10-20-2012, 05:40 PM
  #623
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Cuban wouldn't be allowed to use AAC.... EVEN though his Mavericks are a co-tenant there, again, Houston's a non-starter unless you can convince the Wild to release the market.
The Wild do not have any claim on the Houston market - other than a 1 out of 30 vote on the BoG. The NHL owns the Houston market.

And yet another chance to ask you to back up your oft-repeated claim ...

Why would the existence of the Aeros (a tenant in the Toyota center) be somehow an insurmountable obstacle to an NHL team moving/expanding to Houston - assuming a satisfactory ownership/lease agreement were struck with Les Alexander?

And yet another chance for you to not answer the question and change the subject.

I'm getting really tempted to go back and do a mongo post of all your non-answers, changes of subject and non-sequiturs going back over dozens of threads.

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10-20-2012, 05:57 PM
  #624
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Houston's a non-starter unless you can convince the Wild to release the market.
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I'm getting really tempted to go back and do a mongo post of all your non-answers, changes of subject and non-sequiturs going back over dozens of threads.
... uhh ohhh... now HUTCH? What'd I tell ya? You keep repeating this fiction because why? You ran into Craig on some Margarita fueled Barf Barge down around the Sea of Cortez & he told you; "look Maing, I OWN Houston"?.

Now you got kdb threatenin to go all Mongo Santamaria on yer heiny.... and I didnt even Rat you out. This time. No, he found your post all by himself. Smelled it no doubt.

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10-20-2012, 06:22 PM
  #625
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... uhh ohhh... now HUTCH? What'd I tell ya? You keep repeating this fiction because why? You ran into Craig on some Margarita fueled Barf Barge down around the Sea of Cortez & he told you; "look Maing, I OWN Houston"?.

Now you got kdb threatenin to go all Mongo Santamaria on yer heiny.... and I didnt even Rat you out. This time. No, he found your post all by himself. Smelled it no doubt.
He's delusional about his beloved Aeros.

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