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2012 CBA & Re-alignment: Lockout in Effect. Thanks Gary/Donald! PART II

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10-19-2012, 08:53 AM
  #376
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
That's your opinion on Fehr and the PA. It isn't a fact.

Bettman has lied three times already. Those are facts.

Big difference.
I just want to get this straight here, you're saying that Fehr is a decent person?

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10-19-2012, 08:57 AM
  #377
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If common sense is what you're banking on, well... I certainly wouldn't want to be in your shoes
Guess what....

You are in the same shoes as me.

I just choose to be positive about it. That's one thing I have control over.

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10-19-2012, 08:59 AM
  #378
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I just want to get this straight here, you're saying that Fehr is a decent person?
Do you personally know Fehr? I don't....

When has Fehr told a lie throughout this process, exactly?

I do know Bettman has outright lied three times in the last two months.

What does that make him in your books? An honest, decent person?

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10-19-2012, 09:04 AM
  #379
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So the public gets mad at... The players? Then they uh... Don't come to games, buy merchandise, etc and league revenues go down, affecting the owners just as much.

Ya, Bettman is shrewd.... The PR war only does damage to both sides long term.

Any negative press won't force the PA into taking a deal. If Bettman was so shrewd he would choose his words more carefully and not spout off obvious lies, one after the other.
Oh, he knows the die hard hockey fans will come back. He knows 90% of them are completely full of it when they say they'll stay away. He's confident he can get the casuals back too soon enough. This was the point of those focus groups that Deadspin busted them on. They knew they were badly losing the PR war and were looking for a way to swing it. And they did. In one day he got the vast majority of fans to switch sides. Because the public IS stupid, and he knows it.

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10-19-2012, 09:10 AM
  #380
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Oh, he knows the die hard hockey fans will come back. He knows 90% of them are completely full of it when they say they'll stay away. He's confident he can get the casuals back too soon enough. This was the point of those focus groups that Deadspin busted them on. They knew they were badly losing the PR war and were looking for a way to swing it. And they did. In one day he got the vast majority of fans to switch sides. Because the public IS stupid, and he knows it.
I wouldn't say people are stupid... Most people aren't educated on the issues like us. So they see 50/50 and go ballistic when the PA turns it down.

The big point is, negative press won't force the PA's hand. Anger at the players only means repercussions for the league also. They are joined at the hip.

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10-19-2012, 09:21 AM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Do you personally know Fehr? I don't....

When has Fehr told a lie throughout this process, exactly?

I do know Bettman has outright lied three times in the last two months.

What does that make him in your books? An honest, decent person?
I am amazed by this, but it's clear what side you're in the tank for.

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10-19-2012, 09:27 AM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
I am amazed by this, but it's clear what side you're in the tank for.
I can throw that same BS right back at you, but I won't.

You didn't answer my two questions...

Do you think Bettman who has outright lied three times and counting is a decent and honest guy?

What concrete lies has Fehr told us during this process?

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10-19-2012, 09:38 AM
  #383
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The Fehr hate is silly. The man was hired to do a job, which is to be a zealous advocate for his side and to fight for their best interest. We can question whether he's doing a good job, but it's presumptuous at best to do so given our distance from the process.

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10-19-2012, 09:41 AM
  #384
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yeah i dont get how someone can choose fehr over bettman.

one guy was the architect of a system that ruined the pirates, the other guy (possibly) played a role in keeping the penguins in town and (undeniably) delivered a very pens-friendly cba that allowed them to win the cup.

kind of mind-boggling, really.

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10-19-2012, 09:59 AM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
yeah i dont get how someone can choose fehr over bettman.

one guy was the architect of a system that ruined the pirates, the other guy (possibly) played a role in keeping the penguins in town and (undeniably) delivered a very pens-friendly cba that allowed them to win the cup.

kind of mind-boggling, really.
First off, I despise baseball to my core and couldn't care less if the Pirates existed. I only wish Fehr had made the entire sport disappear.

Secondly, Fehr is doing what the players want. They aren't some mindless sheep like people want to assume. They want the best deal possible and he is trying to get that for them.

Finally, Bettman is in fact a documented liar and no matter which side you support, you would have to be a total fool to think otherwise. This isn't open to interpretation, it is a simple, undeniable fact.

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10-19-2012, 10:00 AM
  #386
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
yeah i dont get how someone can choose fehr over bettman.

one guy was the architect of a system that ruined the pirates, the other guy (possibly) played a role in keeping the penguins in town and (undeniably) delivered a very pens-friendly cba that allowed them to win the cup.

kind of mind-boggling, really.
I don't know, maybe they can remove themselves and look at it in a purely objective manner without considering their own personal, emotional stakes in it.

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10-19-2012, 10:14 AM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
First off, I despise baseball to my core and couldn't care less if the Pirates existed. I only wish Fehr had made the entire sport disappear.

Secondly, Fehr is doing what the players want. They aren't some mindless sheep like people want to assume. They want the best deal possible and he is trying to get that for them.

Finally, Bettman is in fact a documented liar and no matter which side you support, you would have to be a total fool to think otherwise. This isn't open to interpretation, it is a simple, undeniable fact.
first, yeah i dont care about baseball either.

second, you claim fehr is just doing what the players want, but argue the exact opposite about bettman-- that he wields enormous power, is responsible for this lockout, yadda yadda yadda. seems kinda disingenuous to claim one guy is the mastermind and the other is merely a representative.

third, you need to get off this whole "bettman is a liar" thing. its not going to convince anyone of anything, or bring more people to see your reasoning. frankly it makes it look like you are grasping for straws to vilify bettman. its just semantics, or more precisely the art of negotiating and compromise. it happens all the time. people draw their line in the sand and try to appear firm in their stance, but then end up compromising. of course he's going to say this [most recent] offer is the best offer. that fact that you are so shocked by this suggests you are fairly naive when it comes to this sort of thing, and perhaps are not so well-versed in this field as you'd like everyone to believe. it happens literally everyday in the house and senate. if bettman is a liar, then so too is virtually every politician. if you consider all of them liars, that's fine, but then don't act like bettman is a uniquely amoral person.

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10-19-2012, 10:43 AM
  #388
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Guess what....

You are in the same shoes as me.

I just choose to be positive about it. That's one thing I have control over.
Yeah, and that's fine. I was once, too, until I saw how things were (or weren't) progressing. My position is I won't be the least bit shocked if we miss games, or worse, the season (deeply disappointed, yes, but surprised, not in the least).

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10-19-2012, 10:44 AM
  #389
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
first, yeah i dont care about baseball either.

second, you claim fehr is just doing what the players want, but argue the exact opposite about bettman-- that he wields enormous power, is responsible for this lockout, yadda yadda yadda. seems kinda disingenuous to claim one guy is the mastermind and the other is merely a representative.

third, you need to get off this whole "bettman is a liar" thing. its not going to convince anyone of anything, or bring more people to see your reasoning. frankly it makes it look like you are grasping for straws to vilify bettman. its just semantics, or more precisely the art of negotiating and compromise. it happens all the time. people draw their line in the sand and try to appear firm in their stance, but then end up compromising. of course he's going to say this [most recent] offer is the best offer. that fact that you are so shocked by this suggests you are fairly naive when it comes to this sort of thing, and perhaps are not so well-versed in this field as you'd like everyone to believe. it happens literally everyday in the house and senate. if bettman is a liar, then so too is virtually every politician. if you consider all of them liars, that's fine, but then don't act like bettman is a uniquely amoral person.
This....

Fehr and Betteman are both liars. Just like politicians, it's what they are paid to do.

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10-19-2012, 10:49 AM
  #390
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
first, yeah i dont care about baseball either.

second, you claim fehr is just doing what the players want, but argue the exact opposite about bettman-- that he wields enormous power, is responsible for this lockout, yadda yadda yadda. seems kinda disingenuous to claim one guy is the mastermind and the other is merely a representative.
Bettman is the one who used the lockout as a strategy because he saw the 50/50 deal the NBA and NFL got.

The NFL doesn't have an escrow system because their cap is regulated so well. Funny how they don't want to do that. I bet the NHLPA would gladly accept that offer in minutes if the NHL pulled escrow off the table.

Bettman could of put this latest offer on the table months ago if he didn't want to use the lockout as a pressure cooker on the NHLPA. Of course this is a guy who planned the lockout last time four yrs in advance.

Goodenow was a straight shooter who many feel brought integrity back to the PA, after Eagleson was removed and later faced criminal charges. Yet BG's integrity didn't stop Bettman from locking the players out twice under BG's watch.

A lockout can be used at any point, not just the beginning of the season, just like a strike. Bettman prefers to use it as a weapon of extortion, sadly.

Quote:
third, you need to get off this whole "bettman is a liar" thing. its not going to convince anyone of anything, or bring more people to see your reasoning. frankly it makes it look like you are grasping for straws to vilify bettman. its just semantics, or more precisely the art of negotiating and compromise. it happens all the time. people draw their line in the sand and try to appear firm in their stance, but then end up compromising. of course he's going to say this [most recent] offer is the best offer. that fact that you are so shocked by this suggests you are fairly naive when it comes to this sort of thing, and perhaps are not so well-versed in this field as you'd like everyone to believe. it happens literally everyday in the house and senate. if bettman is a liar, then so too is virtually every politician. if you consider all of them liars, that's fine, but then don't act like bettman is a uniquely amoral person.
Why would I "get off it" when he is in fact a documented liar, and there are many other instances I can point to? It speaks to his character and how disengenuious he really is. This is exactly why the players hate him and don't trust him. Which is why we are where we are right now.

It isn't a difficult concept to grasp.

Again, when has Fehr actually lied to the public? Maybe he is a *******, but unlike Bettman, there are no documented statements he made to the public that were out right lies. Sorry if you can't see the difference there.

Funny how PA leaders have changed, as well as the players, yet Bettman is the one constant. The one who wields all of this power and his go to negotiation tactic is a lockout.

But he isn't the one to blame?

Please.


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10-19-2012, 12:14 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Bettman is the one who used the lockout as a strategy because he saw the 50/50 deal the NBA and NFL got.

The NFL doesn't have an escrow system because their cap is regulated so well. Funny how they don't want to do that. I bet the NHLPA would gladly accept that offer in minutes if the NHL pulled escrow off the table.

Bettman could of put this latest offer on the table months ago if he didn't want to use the lockout as a pressure cooker on the NHLPA. Of course this is a guy who planned the lockout last time four yrs in advance.

Goodenow was a straight shooter who many feel brought integrity back to the PA, after Eagleson was removed and later faced criminal charges. Yet BG's integrity didn't stop Bettman from locking the players out twice under BG's watch.

A lockout can be used at any point, not just the beginning of the season, just like a strike. Bettman prefers to use it as a weapon of extortion, sadly.



Why would I "get off it" when he is in fact a documented liar, and there are many other instances I can point to? It speaks to his character and how disengenuious he really is. This is exactly why the players hate him and don't trust him. Which is why we are where we are right now.

It isn't a difficult concept to grasp.

Again, when has Fehr actually lied to the public? Maybe he is a *******, but unlike Bettman, there are no documented statements he made to the public that were out right lies. Sorry if you can't see the difference there.

Funny how PA leaders have changed, as well as the players, yet Bettman is the one constant. The one who wields all of this power and his go to negotiation tactic is a lockout.

But he isn't the one to blame?

Please.
I'm not going to touch on a lot of this rhetoric, but a few points. Yes, he planned the last lockout well well in advance, because it was obvious to anyone with a brain that a lockout was going to be needed in order to significantly change the financial state of the league and get a salary cap in place. The NBA did the exact same, as did the NFL.

I'm not sure what your point is that a lockout can happen at anytime, not just the beginning of the season. So? The last thing the NHL wants is for a season to be started and then be disrupted by a labour stoppage, strike or lockout, doesn't matter which. It's why the players would have more leverage if the NHL didn't lock out. If the NHL feels a lockout is going to be needed in order to get the concessions it wants or feels it needs, it's going to do it before the season starts, not at a time that would be much more damaging and do it mid-season.

And yes, the lockout is a tool, and unfortunately, it's one that's been used in nearly all sports now, but to put blame solely on Bettman for that (especially when the NFL, NBA have seen the exact same thing) for that is off. If you really think the NHLPA would be negotiating in good faith (or even at all) if they just decided to play under the CBA, then I don't know what to say. The NHLPA was invited to the bargaining table a year ago. It took them until August to even really meet with the NHL.

Lastly, I agree with the above poster. Using things like "Bettman said this was the best offer/this was the deadline" and then budged on those shows he's such a documented liar comes off as petty.


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10-19-2012, 12:26 PM
  #392
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good luck with Nov 3rd.

October 10th 2013 seems more realistic.

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10-19-2012, 12:49 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I can throw that same BS right back at you, but I won't.

You didn't answer my two questions...

Do you think Bettman who has outright lied three times and counting is a decent and honest guy?

What concrete lies has Fehr told us during this process?
What do you expect Bettman to say? Of course he's not going to show his true hand and say it's his best offer. It's a freakin' negotiation. Do you think he's going to hand in a proposal and say: "Here's our proposal. It's not the best we can truly offer but that's what we want. If you don't think it's fair, just let me know. I'm sure we can work this out like adults. And then we can hold hands and skip down the street smiling." ?

No doubt he's a sleaze. But at least he's showing some flexibility to find some common ground, which both sides need to do, and get a full season in for everyone. What I hate is all the heart string pulling Fehr is doing and all the players with their sad puppy faces again and again. I'm so sick of hearing "Seven years ago the players were asked to take a paycut and then made millions and millions of dollars, and now they're being asked to take another paycuy and will still make millions and millions more. It's not fair!"


Both side are stupid, but the players are annoying me to no freakin' end. I really just need to stop following all of this.

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10-19-2012, 12:57 PM
  #394
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I'm not going to touch on a lot of this rhetoric, but a few points. Yes, he planned the last lockout well well in advance, because it was obvious to anyone with a brain that a lockout was going to be needed in order to significantly change the financial state of the league and get a salary cap in place. The NBA did the exact same, as did the NFL.

I'm not sure what your point is that a lockout can happen at anytime, not just the beginning of the season. So? The last thing the NHL wants is for a season to be started and then be disrupted by a labour stoppage, strike or lockout, doesn't matter which. It's why the players would have more leverage if the NHL didn't lock out. If the NHL feels a lockout is going to be needed in order to get the concessions it wants or feels it needs, it's going to do it before the season starts, not at a time that would be much more damaging and do it mid-season.

And yes, the lockout is a tool, and unfortunately, it's one that's been used in nearly all sports now, but to put blame solely on Bettman for that (especially when the NFL, NBA have seen the exact same thing) for that is off. If you really think the NHLPA would be negotiating in good faith (or even at all) if they just decided to play under the CBA, then I don't know what to say. The NHLPA was invited to the bargaining table a year ago. It took them until August to even really meet with the NHL.

Lastly, I agree with the above poster. Using things like "Bettman said this was the best offer/this was the deadline" and then budged on those shows he's such a documented liar comes off as petty.
In other words, Bettman and the owners need the lockout to extort money from the players. Simple as that. The NBA and the NFL instituted cap systems without losing an entire season to a work stoppage. Only Bettman's NHL has that black mark.

Furthermore, there is nothing petty about calling Bettman a liar, because he is. Did he not just lie about how making their latest proposal wasn't conducive to the process, only to release it hours later? Yeah, he did.

Lets also get a few things straight because too many people are allowing Bettman and the owners to pull wool over their eyes...

The players are asking for the owners to honor the current contracts they signed and they will accept a 50/50 offer. There is nothing unreasonable about that. Nothing.

I want hockey as badly as everyone else, but I'm not throwing my ethics out of the window because of it. The owners are giving ZERO concessions and extorting the players for more money. I don't care how much the players make. Wrong is wrong. Even a respected journalist like LeBrun who hasn't taken sides said the exact same thing.

If you and others have a problem with Fehr, oh well. Bettman's actions brought him into the equation. Bob Goodenow in Dec 04 put a 24% rollback on the table to avoid the cap. Then in the Summer of '05 Bettman insisted they not only accept the cap, but the rollback as well. Linden and his crew did a mini coup and after the deal was done, BG decided to resign (he was opposed to the deal).

I have little doubt BG would still be running the PA and not Fehr if Bettman didn't force that rollback. He wasn't happy with just the cap, he had to stick it to the PA while he was at it. He of course lied again to the public and insisted meaningful revenue sharing wasn't need within a cap system. So either he was stupid (doubtful) or he planned on getting back what the players got in the next CBA... and BG warned the players this would happen.

So now Bettman, the owners and the fans have to deal with their worst nightmare - Fehr. The man will not put his name on any deal that extorts more money from the players. They want their current contracts honored and they have EVERY right to ask that, given they are getting zero concessions and are willing to go 50/50 in future yrs.

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10-19-2012, 01:11 PM
  #395
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
In other words, Bettman and the owners need the lockout to extort money from the players. Simple as that. The NBA and the NFL instituted cap systems without losing an entire season to a work stoppage. Only Bettman's NHL has that black mark.

Furthermore, there is nothing petty about calling Bettman a liar, because he is. Did he not just lie about how making their latest proposal wasn't conducive to the process, only to release it hours later? Yeah, he did.

Lets also get a few things straight because too many people are allowing Bettman and the owners to pull wool over their eyes...

The players are asking for the owners to honor the current contracts they signed and they will accept a 50/50 offer. There is nothing unreasonable about that. Nothing.

I want hockey as badly as everyone else, but I'm not throwing my ethics out of the window because of it. The owners are giving ZERO concessions and extorting the players for more money. I don't care how much the players make. Wrong is wrong. Even a respected journalist like LeBrun who hasn't taken sides said the exact same thing.

If you and others have a problem with Fehr, oh well. Bettman's actions brought him into the equation. Bob Goodenow in Dec 04 put a 24% rollback on the table to avoid the cap. Then in the Summer of '05 Bettman insisted they not only accept the cap, but the rollback as well. Linden and his crew did a mini coup and after the deal was done, BG decided to resign (he was opposed to the deal).

I have little doubt BG would still be running the PA and not Fehr if Bettman didn't force that rollback. He wasn't happy with just the cap, he had to stick it to the PA while he was at it. He of course lied again to the public and insisted meaningful revenue sharing wasn't need within a cap system. So either he was stupid (doubtful) or he planned on getting back what the players got in the next CBA... and BG warned the players this would happen.

So now Bettman, the owners and the fans have to deal with their worst nightmare - Fehr. The man will not put his name on any deal that extorts more money from the players. They want their current contracts honored and they have EVERY right to ask that, given they are getting zero concessions and are willing to go 50/50 in future yrs.
If honoring the players' current contracts is the biggest hindrance to a deal getting done, the PA would be wise to make that their rallying cry from here on out. Put it out on twitter and speak to the media saying so.

I'm still not understanding how both sides can't agree on a gradual reduction in the players' share of revenue to 50/50. Something else has to be up.

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10-19-2012, 01:51 PM
  #396
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This....

Fehr and Betteman are both liars. Just like politicians, it's what they are paid to do.
Politicians aren't paid to lie; it's the system they've built up around themselves that the media is an accessory to by not doing their job. Fehr and Bettman OTOH, you COULD argue, are paid to lie to the cameras in certain situations. They're not elected representatives, supposedly doing their best to serve all their constituents. They're hired guns, more or less.

But I believe both have a lot of power and a lot to do with the structure of the proposals they put out there. The owners and players look TO them for advice and counsel. Simple as that.

I don't think there's any discounting Jiggy's points about Bettman's lies. He did and they were blatant (and at the least, misleading to fans even if the union knew what he's up to). However to suggest Fehr wouldn't do the same thing if he thought he'd "win" by lying, is naive. Fehr will lie his ass off too when he has to.

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10-19-2012, 02:46 PM
  #397
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
In other words, Bettman and the owners need the lockout to extort money from the players. Simple as that. The NBA and the NFL instituted cap systems without losing an entire season to a work stoppage. Only Bettman's NHL has that black mark.

Furthermore, there is nothing petty about calling Bettman a liar, because he is. Did he not just lie about how making their latest proposal wasn't conducive to the process, only to release it hours later? Yeah, he did.

Lets also get a few things straight because too many people are allowing Bettman and the owners to pull wool over their eyes...

The players are asking for the owners to honor the current contracts they signed and they will accept a 50/50 offer. There is nothing unreasonable about that. Nothing.

I want hockey as badly as everyone else, but I'm not throwing my ethics out of the window because of it. The owners are giving ZERO concessions and extorting the players for more money. I don't care how much the players make. Wrong is wrong. Even a respected journalist like LeBrun who hasn't taken sides said the exact same thing.

If you and others have a problem with Fehr, oh well. Bettman's actions brought him into the equation. Bob Goodenow in Dec 04 put a 24% rollback on the table to avoid the cap. Then in the Summer of '05 Bettman insisted they not only accept the cap, but the rollback as well. Linden and his crew did a mini coup and after the deal was done, BG decided to resign (he was opposed to the deal).

I have little doubt BG would still be running the PA and not Fehr if Bettman didn't force that rollback. He wasn't happy with just the cap, he had to stick it to the PA while he was at it. He of course lied again to the public and insisted meaningful revenue sharing wasn't need within a cap system. So either he was stupid (doubtful) or he planned on getting back what the players got in the next CBA... and BG warned the players this would happen.

So now Bettman, the owners and the fans have to deal with their worst nightmare - Fehr. The man will not put his name on any deal that extorts more money from the players. They want their current contracts honored and they have EVERY right to ask that, given they are getting zero concessions and are willing to a 50/50 in future yrs.
Except, while 'honoring the contracts', makes it far from 50/50 split. And the NHL is far from the only business to ask it's union to renegotiate contracts across the board. Most those unions don't have a membership making an average salary of $2.5 million. And you're right that the NHLPA is in its right to fight against that renegotiation, but the NHL is within its right to ask for it. All previous contracts were signed per the Old CBA with the knowledge that they could be altered by future agreed upon CBA's. And it's not a pure rollback that the NHL is asking for, they have put in a mechanism which while doesn't entirely protect old contracts, does give a lot more protection to them than they were originally asking.

If I were Bettman, I'd tell the players to put their money where their mouth is. They keep on telling the league their proposal of $1.8 billion gauranteed + raises are fair because it's completely reasonable to expect the NHL to continue to grow at about 7.1%. Well then, this year, you get 53% of the cap, next year, you get 50%. If you're so confident in the growth rates you keep spouting to justify your deal, those numbers will keep you at your precious $1.8-1.88 billion number. Also, make sure the players with deals coming up in a year or 2 know that they will get less money under the no-rollback deal since teams will be more cap-strapped.


Last edited by PensFanSince1989: 10-19-2012 at 03:03 PM.
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10-19-2012, 02:52 PM
  #398
bambamcam4ever
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
Going by that graph I would correlate it to the removal of the reserve clause.

But really, you're not attributing any major destruction of the sport to the 94 strike? It to me is the premier evidence that a players union cares nothing about the sport it's in and cares only about their immediate gains. Baseball's dominance and legacy were ruined and tarnished exclusively at the hands of the players union. The vast majority of that destruction was done by the hands of Donald Fehr. We need to learn from history here and not hide from it.
The reserve clause was destroyed in 1975. The graph does not support that assertion whatsoever. Do you believe that the reserve clause should still be in effect and that owners should have complete control over players who play for artificially depressed salaries?

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10-19-2012, 03:07 PM
  #399
Slabber Chops
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In a country that never has news of the NHL at any time during the year. It is an indictment of how detrimental to the league this whole business is becoming.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-s...r-season-games

Ps. "other-sports" is anything bar rugby in this country.

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10-19-2012, 04:17 PM
  #400
SidTheKid8787
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Yea i don't see how you guys are squabbling over Bettman vs Fehr.
They are BOTH big reasons why we aren't getting hockey this year.
I wouldn't put bigger blame on one or the other.

I don't hate the players. I hate that Fehr is leading the players.
Heres a fact. I hate unions. Heh.

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