Subban has the POTENTIAL to be our best. To this day, until proven otherwise, Markov is the best d-man eve if he slowed down. Tells you about the rest of the squad.
Subban has played like a #1 (at worst #2) for the past two seasons. Markov has a total of 20 games played, 6 pts and a -2 rating in that time span. It's not about stats, clearly.. But Markov has been recovering from injury for the past two seasons, whether it's rust or regression in his game has yet to be proven.
What is proven is that Subban has played better than Markov in that time span, regardless of circumstances. Markov in his prime is > Subban (of today) AINEC, but we don't know exactly what Markov's situation is until he gets back in game shape. If Markov returns close to peak game, then and only then will I agree with that kind of statement.
Subban has played like a #1 (at worst #2) for the past two seasons. Markov has a total of 20 games played, 6 pts and a -2 rating in that time span. It's not about stats, clearly.. But Markov has been recovering from injury for the past two seasons, whether it's rust or regression in his game has yet to be proven.
What is proven is that Subban has played better than Markov in that time span, regardless of circumstances. Markov in his prime is > Subban (of today) AINEC, but we don't know exactly what Markov's situation is until he gets back in game shape. If Markov returns close to peak game, then and only then will I agree with that kind of statement.
Not that long ago, Subban was in coaches' doghouse. Not sure Markov was on anybody's doghouse in the past 10 years. Whether we appreciate it or not, whether we thought it was deserved or not, Subban is clearly not playing his best hockey as it's suppose to be since he's still fairly young, especially for a d-man. He has his ups and downs while Markov, healthy, doesn't have those kinds of mood swings. A healthy Markov, is our best d-man. EVEN if he never goes back to the dominant player he was. At least, that's my opinion.
Besides, not sure how you can really compare both players in a time span when 1 guy was almost totally out of the lineup. Subban was just better by being in the lineup while the other one wasn't. And you can't even use Markov stats since coming back from those tough years, it was obvious that he wouldn't rack it. But right now, with the rest, there is no dbout that people expect him to be on the first PP, playing his regular shift, playing in the first PK and be used in the last minute of a close game. That to me is enough to name him my #1. Mind you, Subban is not far behind as he is also used in most of those situations. But somehow Subban is still in proving mode as far as his hockey capabilities while Markov is in proving mode healthwise. But the day they are convince that Markov is healthy, nobody will have any doubt.
Not that long ago, Subban was in coaches' doghouse. Not sure Markov was on anybody's doghouse in the past 10 years. Whether we appreciate it or not, whether we thought it was deserved or not, Subban is clearly not playing his best hockey as it's suppose to be since he's still fairly young, especially for a d-man. He has his ups and downs while Markov, healthy, doesn't have those kinds of mood swings. A healthy Markov, is our best d-man. EVEN if he never goes back to the dominant player he was. At least, that's my opinion.
Besides, not sure how you can really compare both players in a time span when 1 guy was almost totally out of the lineup. Subban was just better by being in the lineup while the other one wasn't. And you can't even use Markov stats since coming back from those tough years, it was obvious that he wouldn't rack it. But right now, with the rest, there is no dbout that people expect him to be on the first PP, playing his regular shift, playing in the first PK and be used in the last minute of a close game. That to me is enough to name him my #1. Mind you, Subban is not far behind as he is also used in most of those situations. But somehow Subban is still in proving mode as far as his hockey capabilities while Markov is in proving mode healthwise. But the day they are convince that Markov is healthy, nobody will have any doubt.
I don't think anyone seriously expects Markov to be starting on the first pairing, and especially not the first PK unit. If Therrien breaks up Gorges-Subban it just proves how stupid he really is, considering they we're the #1 unit for half the season on the team that finished 2nd in the league in penalty killing. Subban having some of the best PK'ing stats in the league.
If Markov comes back to being the #1 defenseman, great. It's only good for the team. I am not naive enough to expect it from a 33 yr old coming off two major knee surgeries who's played 65 games out of a possible 246, and whom in his returns has looked average at best. I understand rust is more than likely a factor in his average play in those games, I get that. It remains to be seen just how much further he can elevate his game from that level though.
Markov *used* to be my favorite player, it's not like I have a grudge against the guy.
Stubbs is confirming Markov will be back when the lockout is over.
No brainer, he loves it here.
I doubt he's paid 2-3M over there and he's most likely mad as hell to lose so much money.... watching him lace up in that run-down soviet locker room is kinda random.
He lost a lot of speed, he's weak physically, he's 33 yo. It would be a miracle if he came back in good shape. And he wasn't just half bad last year, he was absolutely awful.
He played 13 games last year, far too little to pass judgement on his long term abilities. Give him some time. Markov's game has never relied on speed anyways and his brain hasn't been damaged as far as I'm aware. Also 33yrs old isn't really old and he's not weak physically (what has ever made you think that I don't know. roughing people is simply not his game but he's definitely not weak).
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion
Markov isn't washed-up. He's rusty.
The nervous nellies remind me of the people who were worried about Galchenyuk after 3 or 4 OHL games.
I agree 100%. Btw you're in Australia? Cool! BBQ some kangaroo steak for me while you're there
Subban has the POTENTIAL to be our best. To this day, until proven otherwise, Markov is the best d-man eve if he slowed down. Tells you about the rest of the squad.
Gorges is our best dman by a mile until Subban proves otherwise.
Imo...
Subban and Gorges have already done more in last 3 seasons in playoffs compared to Markov since he has been a Hab. Subban has (by far) been the #1 dman for our Habs since he's been a Hab.
In fact...name me a dman that is more speedy/talented/skilled/entertaining? (in the history of Habs dmen). Since I've been watching the Habs...not one dman comes close to Subban's talent.
Time for this Markov-less era to start (an actual chance for a Cup): Subban
Gorges
Young iron-man UFA top 3 dman (Markov's salary) Tinordi
Beaulieu
Ellis
Thrower
Emelin
Dietz
Bennett
Gorges was arguably our best d-man (maybe on par with Subban) and we finished last in the east .
Habs were solidly in the plus by a large margin with Subban and Gorges playing the toughest assignments. Finishing bottom in the east had zero to do with the quality of the first pairing.
Before insulting people, just make sure there's not a video proof of it.
Markov said on video, in english, that he won't be back if he doesn't like the new CBA.
He lost a lot of speed, he's weak physically, he's 33 yo. It would be a miracle if he came back in good shape. And he wasn't just half bad last year, he was absolutely awful.
Not many will like the above post...since there's lots of reality in it.
(Markov = false hope = 1 or 2 more years of $5.75mil for nothing).
Every thread about Markov (over 3 1/2 season) leads to
(there's never any good news with Markov...and all for $5.75mil/year).
One thing to keep in mind for Markov is that even if he is exactly what he was before he's not going to be as effective as he was in 2006-09 due to how the league has changed in that powerplay opportunities are massively down accross the board. Nobody can get the powerplay minutes anymore to replicate what he did in 07-08 for example.
Markov's value was that he was a solid top pair defender on even strength and arguably the best powerplay defenseman of his time. And the value of a top powerplay defender has declined rapidly. The league belongs more to guys like Subban now who dominate the game 5 on 5.
Habs were solidly in the plus by a large margin with Subban and Gorges playing the toughest assignments. Finishing bottom in the east had zero to do with the quality of the first pairing.
This. If anything it just exemplifies how great a first pairing it actually was.
We were terrible due to the lack of depth outside of those two defenseman. When Emelin and Diaz are your 3-4 for a chunk of the season, you're in serious serious trouble. The other glaring hole was the lack of scoring wingers on the second line.
One thing to keep in mind for Markov is that even if he is exactly what he was before he's not going to be as effective as he was in 2006-09 due to how the league has changed in that powerplay opportunities are massively down accross the board. Nobody can get the powerplay minutes anymore to replicate what he did in 07-08 for example.
Markov's value was that he was a solid top pair defender on even strength and arguably the best powerplay defenseman of his time. And the value of a top powerplay defender has declined rapidly. The league belongs more to guys like Subban now who dominate the game 5 on 5.
The powerplay is still very important and was a major weakness of the Habs last year.
Habs stats
PP% : 14.3% (28th place)
PP opportunities : 301 (3rd best in NHL (so much wasted opportunities!))
Total PP Goals : 43 (23th place)
Shorthanded goals against : 8 (24th place)
Number of PP goals if we had an 17% (average) rate on the PP : 51
Number of SHGA if we were average in that regard : 5
That makes our goal differential better by 11 up from -14 to -3, which would have been better than half the league. With a good powerplay (say, 18 or 19%) we could easily have had a positive differential. This doesn't even count the possible shifts in momentum scoring a few PP goals would have caused that would result in additional GF and a few less GA. Needless to say we could have won many close games because of this, and there were a lot of close games if you remember.
Its true there were less PP opportunities than in previous years but having a good PP still gives a team a much better chance at winning. If Markov helps us scoring a few more goals it will make a big difference.
The powerplay is still very important and was a major weakness of the Habs last year.
Habs stats
PP% : 14.3% (28th place)
PP opportunities : 301 (3rd best in NHL (so much wasted opportunities!))
Total PP Goals : 43 (23th place)
Shorthanded goals against : 8 (24th place)
Number of PP goals if we had an 17% (average) rate on the PP : 51
Number of SHGA if we were average in that regard : 5
That makes our goal differential better by 11 up from -14 to -3, which would have been better than half the league. With a good powerplay (say, 18 or 19%) we could easily have had a positive differential. This doesn't even count the possible shifts in momentum scoring a few PP goals would have caused that would result in additional GF and a few less GA. Needless to say we could have won many close games because of this, and there were a lot of close games if you remember.
Its true there were less PP opportunities than in previous years but having a good PP still gives a team a much better chance at winning. If Markov helps us scoring a few more goals it will make a big difference.
Its still an important part of the game and not having Markov to anchor a second pair and lead a strong PP was a big reason they didn`t make the playoffs (along side stupid management decisions and sheer bad luck).
My point is that the leverage gotten by having an ace powerplay player has declined precipitously. Penalties are taken at about half the rate they used to, which means the leverage a team gets from a strong powerplay compared to strong even strength play has likewise been cut in half.
You can see it in the standings last year, special teams strength had very little relation to position in the standings while 5 on 5 goal ratio was a dominant factor.
The other side of this is that you couldn`t expect a dominant PP defenseman to flirt with 60 points any more. Racking up 40 PP points in a season is basically impossible now and even the best in the league would struggle to get 30. So a full season Markov who should be good for about 20 ES points is at best going to be in the high 40s, maybe 50 points in 82 games.
Habs real (no SO or EN) goal differential was actually -2, they had bad luck on shootouts and had a ton of empty net goals against (which are very low impact goals). Basically they had a Eastern playoff team goal differential about par with the likes of Ottawa. As many problems as they had last season they weren`t losing on the aggregate balance of play.
Last edited by Talks to Goalposts: 10-22-2012 at 07:40 AM.
Imo...
Subban and Gorges have already done more in last 3 seasons in playoffs compared to Markov since he has been a Hab. Subban has (by far) been the #1 dman for our Habs since he's been a Hab.
In fact...name me a dman that is more speedy/talented/skilled/entertaining? (in the history of Habs dmen). Since I've been watching the Habs...not one dman comes close to Subban's talent.
Time for this Markov-less era to start (an actual chance for a Cup): Subban
Gorges
Young iron-man UFA top 3 dman (Markov's salary) Tinordi
Beaulieu
Ellis
Thrower
Emelin
Dietz
Bennett
If you are talking about the Markov of now then maybe you have a point. however when he was healthy, people talked about Markov as being a top 5-10 d-man in the league. I love Subban but he isnt there just yet
Does anyone have any details? I find myself wondering about his
ice-time. Both minutes, and how the coach uses him. And, of course,
I'm wondering how he feels about that knee. |How confident he is in
it, and how close, or not, to where he was before he injured it.
If you are talking about the Markov of now then maybe you have a point. however when he was healthy, people talked about Markov as being a top 5-10 d-man in the league. I love Subban but he isnt there just yet
When Markov played like he can...I remember how good he was (cerebral/poor man's version of Lidstrom) when he was paired up with Komisarek (that's also the only time Komisarek played well). But that was a long long long time ago!!
PLAYOFFS...I've seen way way more from Subban and Gorges already VS Markov's entire history of playoff performances with our Habs.
(Subban and Gorges give their everything in playoffs...saw absolutely none of that from Markov...Mr.Invisible in playoffs).
Markov in his prime ( approx. 4 years ago?!)...imo top 10 or top 15 in NHL for the regular season (not for playoffs), but again...that was a long long time ago (and that was only for 2 seasons of excellence in regular season...we're not talking about 5-6 seasons).
In the end...Markov is still a Hab, so I hope he can still help our Habs, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
Imo...
Subban and Gorges have already done more in last 3 seasons in playoffs compared to Markov since he has been a Hab. Subban has (by far) been the #1 dman for our Habs since he's been a Hab.
In fact...name me a dman that is more speedy/talented/skilled/entertaining? (in the history of Habs dmen). Since I've been watching the Habs...not one dman comes close to Subban's talent.
Time for this Markov-less era to start (an actual chance for a Cup): Subban
Gorges
Young iron-man UFA top 3 dman (Markov's salary) Tinordi
Beaulieu
Ellis
Thrower
Emelin
Dietz
Bennett
I guess you have not be watching the Habs for very long then. Markov has as much talent as Subban and has a better hockey mind. I'd even argue that Malkhov, in terms of pure talent, had more than Subban, though PK beats him in pretty much every other department but fighting.
And to try and compare PK Subban to some of the greats in Habs history is just a joke. Any future this team has in the short term has to involve a healthy Markov leading the blueline with PK. As much as I like Gorges, he is not a number 2 dman.
I guess you have not be watching the Habs for very long then. Markov has as much talent as Subban and has a better hockey mind. I'd even argue that Malkhov, in terms of pure talent, had more than Subban, though PK beats him in pretty much every other department but fighting.
And to try and PK Subban to some of the greats in Habs history is just a joke. Any future this team has in the short term has to involve a healthy Markov leading the blueline with PK. As much as I like Gorges, he is not a number 2 dman.
I was going to mention Malakhov as well. Malakhov was a better skater than Subban and could absolutely dominate when his mind wasn't in the clouds. As far as the Markov comparison goes, Subban is definitely more physically gifted but Markov's real gift is his hockey sense and vision, which Subban still has a long ways to go to be in the same league as Markov was in his prime.
I was going to mention Malakhov as well. Malakhov was a better skater than Subban and could absolutely dominate when his mind wasn't in the clouds. As far as the Markov comparison goes, Subban is definitely more physically gifted but Markov's real gift is his hockey sense and vision, which Subban still has a long ways to go to be in the same league as Markov was in his prime.
Agreed. I still wonder at times what Malakov could have been had he had the dedication to go with the talent.
It makes no sense to me that people want to rush our prospects up when they have a number one blueliner wanting to play for the team. Markov, if healthy, should be a Hab until retirement. He's only 33. He could have five more seasons in him.
Then again, some people here hate Markov for simply getting hurt.
