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The Luongo Thread [Mod Warning in OP]

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Old
10-20-2012, 08:10 PM
  #101
Bleach Clean
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Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
The only thing laughable here is how much slack Burke gets from fans on the job he's actually done.

The personnel he's changed over - whether that's been positive or not can only be measured in results. Anything else is subjective, based on assumptions and hope of what could happen in the future. The reality is that Burke took over a bottom end team 4 years ago, and they're still a bottom end team now. This is a team that has just posted back to back 13th place conference finishes! isn't it a GM's job to produce results? If the team is rebuilding, isn't it his job to show upward movement? And this doesn't even consider Burke's own comments which have blown up in his face - you know the "we are not rebuilding only retooling as the market won't allow for a rebuild there" ... Well 4 yrs into "retooling" and most fans still consider the team rebuilding.

The Leafs sucked before Burke got there, but 4 yrs later what has changed? They still suck and have shown no upward mobility as a franchise. The only thing people still hold on to as a positive is a bunch of maybes and a whole lot of hope. But at the end of the day EVERY GM in the league is evaluated on results. Even a bottom end team needs to show some movement towards respectability over a 4 year cycle. Not Burke. Apparently he can screw up in his own "retooling" plan, stay at the bottom of the conference year after year, and still be given a free ride from fans talking about how he's changed so much there despite having the worst point totals of any team in the league since he came into his job as GM there.

Personally, I'm surprised how much slack Burke gets there. Most organizations fire their GM when they go 4 yrs into their term without seeing the playoffs, while not even seeing the team rise in the standings at all. You'd think in a diehard hockey market he'd have even more pressure, but not in TO. He can fail in what he publicly set out to do, have the team even further from the playoffs now then when he first took over, and fans will still be talking about him as if he's a great GM. I guess he's lucky being in Toronto. Most other organizations would evaluate him based on results, only in TO he's evaluated based on the hope results may one day come... And that too 4 yrs into his term (where he's posted a bigger losing percentage than any other GM in the league), and 7 yrs into the franchise living in the basement. How much longer does Burke have in his once retooling, now rebuilding plan? They're going to go 5 yrs under him without a playoff spot before he's fired? 6? 7? How much slack does he have before hope and maybes are no longer enough and his future will depend on actual results?


Wow! Sublime post. Most will counter by saying you need at least 6-7 yrs, but they will fail to show upward progress during that time. That point about the worst points percentage really hit the did the job.



Of course, this is a reason Burke is still calling Gillis. So we'll see how it goes...

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10-20-2012, 08:12 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
The only thing laughable here is how much slack Burke gets from fans on the job he's actually done.

The personnel he's changed over - whether that's been positive or not can only be measured in results. Anything else is subjective, based on assumptions and hope of what could happen in the future. The reality is that Burke took over a bottom end team 4 years ago, and they're still a bottom end team now. This is a team that has just posted back to back 13th place conference finishes! isn't it a GM's job to produce results? If the team is rebuilding, isn't it his job to show upward movement? And this doesn't even consider Burke's own comments which have blown up in his face - you know the "we are not rebuilding only retooling as the market won't allow for a rebuild there" ... Well 4 yrs into "retooling" and most fans still consider the team rebuilding.

The Leafs sucked before Burke got there, but 4 yrs later what has changed? They still suck and have shown no upward mobility as a franchise. The only thing people still hold on to as a positive is a bunch of maybes and a whole lot of hope. But at the end of the day EVERY GM in the league is evaluated on results. Even a bottom end team needs to show some movement towards respectability over a 4 year cycle. Not Burke. Apparently he can screw up in his own "retooling" plan, stay at the bottom of the conference year after year, and still be given a free ride from fans talking about how he's changed so much there despite having the worst point totals of any team in the league since he came into his job as GM there.

Personally, I'm surprised how much slack Burke gets there. Most organizations fire their GM when they go 4 yrs into their term without seeing the playoffs, while not even seeing the team rise in the standings at all. You'd think in a diehard hockey market he'd have even more pressure, but not in TO. He can fail in what he publicly set out to do, have the team even further from the playoffs now then when he first took over, and fans will still be talking about him as if he's a great GM. I guess he's lucky being in Toronto. Most other organizations would evaluate him based on results, only in TO he's evaluated based on the hope results may one day come... And that too 4 yrs into his term (where he's posted a bigger losing percentage than any other GM in the league), and 7 yrs into the franchise living in the basement. How much longer does Burke have in his once retooling, now rebuilding plan? They're going to go 5 yrs under him without a playoff spot before he's fired? 6? 7? How much slack does he have before hope and maybes are no longer enough and his future will depend on actual results?
The bolded statement cannot be applied to him.
His time is up in 1-2 years without playoffs.

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Old
10-20-2012, 08:49 PM
  #103
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Leafs fans need to stop offering Tim Connolly to the Canucks. Mike Gillis will never trade for a player with his attitude. Also, your times up now. Canucks fans probably don't even want Kardi anymore, actually while we talking about this, please stop making offers. Not even close. A deal will never get done. I don't see what the Leafs can offer.

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10-20-2012, 08:50 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
I made the point on the Leafs board that since so many on HF think getting top picks is the way to go in rebuilding, why would the Leafs want Luongo to make their pick much worse?

If Reimer/Scrivens bomb, is that bad? The team is rebuilding.
Because if Burke doesn't make the playoffs this season he'll be unemployed.

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10-20-2012, 09:12 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Pyromaniac3 View Post
The bolded statement cannot be applied to him.
His time is up in 1-2 years without playoffs.
the bolded statement wasn't about him. It was about the franchise. Toronto is a huge hockey market. There are more diehard fans there than any other city in the NHL. And this franchise went through 3 losing seasons and a lockout already before Burke was brought in to change all that and turn the ship around. I just can't imagine a franchise in such a diehard hockey city where so many people care about the game, and about winning, to think that they would have this much patience with their GM.

You gotta think that the pressure is mounting for him. He's likely in a more desperate situation right now than most GMs are.. of course it's still his job to hide that and say all the right things. But really is there a GM who realistically is under more pressure in the NHL right now than Burke (considering both his record and the pressures of a diehard/mega hockey market)?

If, as you say, his time is up in 1-2 years without the playoffs, and he knows this, isn't it fair to say that he's in a desperate situation right now?

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10-20-2012, 09:22 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Neely2005 View Post
Because if Burke doesn't make the playoffs this season he'll be unemployed.
All I have to say is what season?


Nah but seriously Burke will be let go soon as General Manager he could be kept around as President. I feel like Nonis will be handed the reigns soon enough.

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10-20-2012, 09:27 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Mystifo View Post
Nah but seriously Burke will be let go soon as General Manager he could be kept around as President. I feel like Nonis will be handed the reigns soon enough.
If any GM is capable for trading for a goalie it's Nonis.

Leafs fans should pray that Burke isn't in charge of getting a #1G because his history paints failed attempt after failed attempt.

Burke has an uncanny ability to get his fanbase to buy into the notion that a mediocre starter can provide elite net minding.
Canucks fans were duped season after season.

Nonis is also a very safe trader so if he's in charge of a Luongo acquisition it should be low risk/high reward (roster players for Luongo).

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10-20-2012, 09:30 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
If, as you say, his time is up in 1-2 years without the playoffs, and he knows this, isn't it fair to say that he's in a desperate situation right now?
He would be desperate, but he seems like a man who doesn't cave in.

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10-20-2012, 09:49 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
Exactly how I feel. It seems to me that having an elite goalie, even as just a back up, is an extremely valuable thing - ESPECIALLY FOR A TEAM COMPETING FOR A CUP IMMEDIATELY.

Even just one more year of this is not a bad thing imo - in fact it is just the opposite - it is incredible insurance. If one goalie is in a slump, boom. Elite backup comes in. If one goes down with injury - no sweat.

Teams frequently trade big pieces for a player that they only get for one year - Boston gave up a 1st + just for part of a year of Kaberle. So why wouldn't a team like Vancouver give up big pieces for a single year of an elite goalie - a much more important piece than a guy like Kalberle- ? And of course Vancouver doesn't have to give up big pieces for Luongo because they already have him. So why not just hold on to him?

My point is that Luongo is very valuable to Vancouver, so it seems to me that it makes no sense to trade him unless it's improving the team some other way.
If the backup is elite what do you consider the starter? What is higher then elite?

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10-20-2012, 09:58 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan52 View Post
If the backup is elite what do you consider the starter?
Schneider is not as proven as Luongo.

Cory has shown extended periods of exceptional play similar to Luongo's elite play.

We consider Schneider the younger and cheaper option.

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10-20-2012, 10:00 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
If any GM is capable for trading for a goalie it's Nonis.

Leafs fans should pray that Burke isn't in charge of getting a #1G because his history paints failed attempt after failed attempt.

Burke has an uncanny ability to get his fanbase to buy into the notion that a mediocre starter can provide elite net minding.
Canucks fans were duped season after season.

Nonis is also a very safe trader so if he's in charge of a Luongo acquisition it should be low risk/high reward (roster players for Luongo).
So....we know Burke is interested in Luongo, and we know he tried to get Broduer, which one are you calling "mediocre" or are they both ? And here we are being told by Canuck fans how he is elite, which I agreed with. But you have convinced me, since Burke is a moron Luongo must be mediocre so we should be getting him for nothing or with throw ins considering his contract....or....you are a bitter Canucks fan living in the past.

Luongo and a 1rst for future considerations.

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10-20-2012, 10:05 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by BlueBaron View Post
So....we know Burke is interested in Luongo, and we know he tried to get Broduer, which one are you calling "mediocre" or are they both ? And here we are being told by Canuck fans how he is elite, which I agreed with.
It's not about who Burke is interested in...it's about who he brings on the team.

Nonis has brought in an elite goalie before when he realized it was a weakness.

Burke had the same problem for an era and repeatedly brought in mediocre options like Cloutier, Weekes, Snow, etc

Edit: My point is, if Nonis is in charge he'll be more likely to make the deal to acquire an elite talent. Burke is more likely to be stubborn and roll with Reimer/Scrivens this season.


Last edited by kthsn: 10-20-2012 at 10:14 PM.
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Old
10-20-2012, 10:13 PM
  #113
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Honestly, I really hope burke doesn't deal Kulemin for Luongo. I'm not saying Luongo isn't worth a player like Kulemin but he was one of our best players in 2010; after a poor season I fully expect him to rebound. The guy can play in a top 6 and do the dirty work or he's a very above average 3rd liner. He has chemistry with Grabovski and I would hate to see him go. I would trade JVR before Kulemin but I no that would never happen. Kulemin is a difference maker.

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10-20-2012, 10:20 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Pyromaniac3 View Post
He would be desperate, but he seems like a man who doesn't cave in.
Oh he'll cave once he senses that he won't be receiving that big fat paycheck of his soon.

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Old
10-20-2012, 10:26 PM
  #115
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Been away from this gong show for a few months because, well, it was getting redundant, but Shannon's words perked my ears up a bit the other day. A few random thoughts:

1) Anyone who thinks Canada won the gold medal in spite of Luongo is nuts. End of story. The way Marty played, one could argue if it wasn't for Lu, we easily could have been beaten by Slovakia. Not saying Luongo didn't win the medal for Canada, but he was not even close to being a liability. That's just ridiculous. Luongo stared down Miller, perhaps the best goalie on the planet at that time, in a gold medal game in his own city with pressure none of us can begin to imagine, and did not blink. It's about time people gave the guy props instead of saying "yeah, but...."

2) JVR, like Gardiner, is not going anywhere. Not until Burke sees what he has there. He isn't going in a trade for Luongo before ever playing a game in Toronto.

3) John Shannon has been to a few rodeos, and he isn't a guy with a history of just making stuff up. I think there is something here. That said, I don't think it is as etched in stone as he hints, and I still think Florida is going to be around at the end. As for Gillis saying "Not true" to the Toronto rumours, um, what else is he supposed to say? "Damn, you got me!"?????

4) As most non-Canuck fans have said for months, Gillis is in dreamland if he thinks he is getting anything close to what he wanted at the draft (according to reports back then, anyway). But a smart GM would do the same thing - start high, then lower your demands if no one bites. That could very well be what is happening right now.

5) I think Gillis may already have a tentative deal in place, whether it is Toronto or someone else, and is just waiting on the new CBA to cross T's and dot I's. The CBA is obviously going to change any return the Canucks get, or what salary they may or may not have to take back.

6) This is really the first time I have heard Bozak in rumours, so again, I think there might be something there. Shannon is really putting himself out there being so sure about his "sources" and he is risking having to wipe a lot of egg off his face. Not sure why he would put himself out there if he didn't have a legitimate source, especially during the dog days of the lockout. So just for ***** and giggles, I am going to post my prediction: Luongo, and no one else, for Bozak, a 2nd and perhaps a dump (depending on CBA) such as Connolly. If this deal is "centered" around Bozak, conventional wisdom says he is about as good as a return as Burke is giving up. Just my two cents....

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10-20-2012, 10:32 PM
  #116
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If we're getting Bozak, I don't see Connolly coming back as well. Toronto would have only Grabovski down the middle, and we'd have no room for both Connolly and Bozak.

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10-20-2012, 10:34 PM
  #117
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Let's please keep things going w/ civil content. Please see the warning in the OP.

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10-20-2012, 10:37 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
If we're getting Bozak, I don't see Connolly coming back as well. Toronto would have only Grabovski down the middle, and we'd have no room for both Connolly and Bozak.
Good point and well taken. I meant "like Connolly", perhaps a short term salary "dump" not named Komisarek.

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10-20-2012, 10:57 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Holy Mackinaw View Post
Good point and well taken. I meant "like Connolly", perhaps a short term salary "dump" not named Komisarek.
I think if Burke is not willing to give up quality, it will probably be a 3-4 piece trade.

Prospect, pick, roster player(kulemin, frattin, bozak)/prospect and cap dump/salary balance (lombardi, macarthur, connolly)

I see it as a combination of those 3 or 4 and if canucks get roster player + cap dump then raymond could very well be going the other way

Maybe

Lombardi, Colbourne, Kadri, 2nd for Luongo

or

Lombardi, Kulemin, Colbourne, 2nd for Luongo, Raymond

or

Connolly, Frattin, Colbourne, 1st for Luongo, Raymond, 2nd

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10-20-2012, 11:01 PM
  #120
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I'd like to use a 1st round pick(top 10 protected or it becomes a 2nd) as the starting piece, and build off the proposal from there.

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10-20-2012, 11:03 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'd like to use a 1st round pick(top 10 protected or it becomes a 2nd) as the starting piece, and build off the proposal from there.
I really doubt Gillis will give any pick protection (top 10 protected)

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10-20-2012, 11:06 PM
  #122
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I really doubt Gillis will give any pick protection (top 10 protected)
It's something I say to alleviate Leafs fans worries. The Leafs are a playoff team with Luongo anyways imo, so it doesn't mean anything to me to say it.

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10-20-2012, 11:30 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Schneider is not as proven as Luongo.

Cory has shown extended periods of exceptional play similar to Luongo's elite play.

We consider Schneider the younger and cheaper option.
Who cares if Schneider is younger? According to you he has 6 elite years left. So why even consider trading him? Could it be that your management has no faith that Luongo can get them back to where they were in 2011? And if they do get back there, can he eliminate what happened in the Chicago and Boston series?

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10-20-2012, 11:33 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by nhlfan9191 View Post
Who cares if Schneider is younger?
Gillis and co.

Schneider can prolong our window for cup contention and carry us through the years where the Sedins decline and Kassian/Jensen/Gaunce aren't contributors yet.

IMO Schneider is already a better goalie then Luongo, it's purely speculation if Gillis thinks the same and not really worth discussing in this thread.

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10-20-2012, 11:35 PM
  #125
Vankiller Whale
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Originally Posted by nhlfan9191 View Post
Who cares if Schneider is younger? According to you he has 6 elite years left. So why even consider trading him? Could it be that your management has no faith that Luongo can get them back to where they were in 2011? And if they do get back there, can he eliminate what happened in the Chicago and Boston series?
It's probably closer to 4 elite years and 2-3 good years afterwards. If we're building a perennial contender(which Gillis intends to do) we go with the younger goalie, unless the difference in return we would get between them is extreme.

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