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Old
10-20-2012, 04:48 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post


Fine. Although for the entire offseason people were saying Luongo's cap hit would count against the team he's traded to even after he retires, so his value is super low. Now that we finally make progress, and in the proposed CBA the only thing that changes Luongo's value is positive, it doesn't mean anything anymore.
I only saw a few people saying that. We have no idea what the CBa will say and Luongo is going nowhere until it's signed.

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10-20-2012, 04:54 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Yeah.
Only a few quotes..Here's the majority:

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Originally Posted by Patch101 View Post
There will not be a deal for a 1st for Luongo from anyone unless someone gets fleeced. That contract kills his value ... a 2nd at best, and a 2nd rate prospect or player most likely.
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Originally Posted by Okanagan Oil View Post
If we get luongo we would have to also get a first round pick with it. We would be doing Vancouver a favor if we took on luongo's salary.

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Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
Don't want Luongo for anything

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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
I might do Horcoff for Luongo+.

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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Far too many Nuck fans just assume they move Lou they'll get a great return and life is going to be grand.

What the hell happens when the return is what the other 29 fan bases having been suggesting and then Schneider turns out to be one of those guys that only plays well when there was no job to lose?
You can read the rest here: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...243469&page=37 . A bit harsher than what I have seen from Leaf fans.

If you're so adamant that Oiler/Panther fans are willing to give up that much for Luongo, put up a poll on their boards. I bet it won't be what you expect

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10-20-2012, 05:00 PM
  #178
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If Vancouver gets stiffed with the cap after Luongo retires, I think they should get a decent return for him.

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10-20-2012, 05:13 PM
  #179
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If Vancouver gets stiffed with the cap after Luongo retires, I think they should get a decent return for him.
I agree, question is what's decent though?

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10-20-2012, 05:28 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by TheLeastOfTheBunch View Post
Only a few quotes..Here's the majority:














You can read the rest here: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...243469&page=37 . A bit harsher than what I have seen from Leaf fans.

If you're so adamant that Oiler/Panther fans are willing to give up that much for Luongo, put up a poll on their boards. I bet it won't be what you expect
Most of their posts are indignant, because that proposal was brutal for them. Their 2nd line C, their top defensive prospect(excluding Schultz) and a good young forward.

It would be the equivalent of me asking for Gardiner, Kadri, and Grabovski.

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10-20-2012, 05:48 PM
  #181
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People are overrating his age.

It's the price that matters, that's all, get him for a high price and it's a waste because we dont want to kill our youth.

but get him for a decent/solid price(2nd rounder, bozak, franson etc.) and you dont touch the youth, you add an elite veteran goalie and essentially a stop-gap at worst until we find a better solution in net.

It's a much better idea than just going blind into a season with two goalies who could easily crap the bed(and really, even if they play mediocre, there's no guarentee we end up with a top 5 pick. Edm, CBJ, MTL, NYI, NJ etc. are arguably the same/worse than us.)

it's win-win if you get him for a good price. And who knows, you could easily make a deep run in a season or two if you quickly add a #1 C and solid depth. He definitely has some solid years left in him.

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10-20-2012, 06:09 PM
  #182
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It should probably be made clear that if you want to tank this year, Luongo is not the goalie for you.

I think this is the year Burke starts making a push to become a relevant team again.

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10-20-2012, 07:12 PM
  #183
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I agree, question is what's decent though?
And depending on the answer to that question, is it worth paying that decent price if it means trading highly thought of youth?

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10-20-2012, 07:17 PM
  #184
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I think us getting Luongo is a mistake for both the player and the team.

I doubt it happens, because this lockout itself is likely going to stretch into a full year (possibly more)..

However, Luongo already has a TON of cracks. He's basically a plate that's been dropped and put back together with glue. He's going to come unglued in Toronto, to his and the teams detriment.

We don't have a solid defensive team. We have one of the worst defensive teams in the league, and Coaching will only improve that marginally.

He's not a bad goalie, but taken into account his age, his contract, and his documented mental/pressure issues, and our teams makeup and this is a match made in failure.

Better for both the player and the team to walk away from this.

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10-20-2012, 08:59 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Chiuozu View Post
I think us getting Luongo is a mistake for both the player and the team.

I doubt it happens, because this lockout itself is likely going to stretch into a full year (possibly more)..

However, Luongo already has a TON of cracks. He's basically a plate that's been dropped and put back together with glue. He's going to come unglued in Toronto, to his and the teams detriment.

We don't have a solid defensive team. We have one of the worst defensive teams in the league, and Coaching will only improve that marginally.

He's not a bad goalie, but taken into account his age, his contract, and his documented mental/pressure issues, and our teams makeup and this is a match made in failure.

Better for both the player and the team to walk away from this.
What?

Good coaching can more than just marginally improve team defence.

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10-20-2012, 09:17 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Chiuozu View Post
I think us getting Luongo is a mistake for both the player and the team.

I doubt it happens, because this lockout itself is likely going to stretch into a full year (possibly more)..

However, Luongo already has a TON of cracks. He's basically a plate that's been dropped and put back together with glue. He's going to come unglued in Toronto, to his and the teams detriment.

We don't have a solid defensive team. We have one of the worst defensive teams in the league, and Coaching will only improve that marginally.

He's not a bad goalie, but taken into account his age, his contract, and his documented mental/pressure issues, and our teams makeup and this is a match made in failure.

Better for both the player and the team to walk away from this.
I like the idea of your plate analogy, but it's completely baseless. Luongo had a bad game here or there but overall, he's been one of the top goalies in the league his entire career. He has no more "mental issues" than any other goalie in the league.

In terms of the roster, our team should be around average defensively. Going from an offensively-minded coach who preached defensive pitches and speed to a defensively-minded coach who favours puck posession will have a HUGE impact.

If the CBA passes the retirement cap hit goes back to the offending team clause, then Luongo's contract is excellent. You're getting a star goalie for 5 mil/year with no long-term risk. And at 32, he's not old at all.

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Old
10-20-2012, 11:23 PM
  #187
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Getting Lou at a cost that does not sacrifice our offensive/defensive core would be great. it will solidify our goaltending for the long term while allowing our potential rookie dmen to gain confidence. overall getting lou will not be a bad thing.

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10-20-2012, 11:53 PM
  #188
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Leafs will not get Luongo for cheap. Having two good goalies is a tremendous asset. Both are tradable. The bigger problem is not having a decent #1 goalie which puts the Leafs in a desperate position. furthermore, Burke is not in a great position since he has huge pressure to make the playoffs. Their fans and ownership want that as well. If anything the Leafs will overpay. It will cost them something like Gardiner, Kadri and some throw-ins/picks. Some on here will not like that because, hell, they want Luongo for almost nothing but you have to give to get a #1 like Luongo. That's just being realistic.
I usually don't get into these Luongo value arguments, but that value is bizarre imho. Gardiner for Luongo will never happen. We are not giving up Gardiner any time soon, especially for a player of Roberto's age.

My guess at his value in a trade from the leafs:

Kulemin, Bozak, 2nd 2013.

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10-21-2012, 01:08 AM
  #189
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I don't get where these appraisals of Luongo's value come from. Vancouver fans are beyond delusional if they believe either of the following:

1) Luongo is worth one or more of: Kadri, Gardiner, 1st round pick
2) They're actually going to get one or more of: Kadri, Gardiner, 1st round pick

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10-21-2012, 01:15 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by MorriPage View Post
I don't get where these appraisals of Luongo's value come from. Vancouver fans are beyond delusional if they believe either of the following:

1) Luongo is worth one or more of: Kadri, Gardiner, 1st round pick
2) They're actually going to get one or more of: Kadri, Gardiner, 1st round pick
Tell that to Vankiller Whale

i want whatever he's smoking..

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10-21-2012, 09:22 AM
  #191
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I didn't see this posted but it does sum up the situation but not the pieces in the trade.

Fan Fuel: Why Luongo to Leafs finally makes sense

http://www.sportsnet.ca/fanfuel/2012...leafs_canucks/

Quote:
The clause that I speak of is this one:

We are proposing that all years of existing long-term contracts in excess of five (5) years be counted against a Club's Cap regardless of whether or where a Player is playing. While such contracts (and Cap charges) can be traded during their terms, in the event a Player subsequently retires or ceases to play, the effective Cap charge would revert to the Club that originally entered into the contract. This proposal is consistent with our other proposals intended to address the harmful effects of long-term, front-loaded, "back-diving" contracts.
Quote:
Beautiful.

Burke, who stated he wouldn't support deals like this now has a very real way to save face. He didn't sign the deal and he doesn't necessarily handcuff his team to a significant cap hit in the later years of Luongo's deal.

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10-21-2012, 10:08 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Budsfan View Post
I didn't see this posted but it does sum up the situation but not the pieces in the trade.

Fan Fuel: Why Luongo to Leafs finally makes sense

http://www.sportsnet.ca/fanfuel/2012...leafs_canucks/
That clause would change everything obviously, but we'll see if it happens.

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10-21-2012, 10:10 AM
  #193
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I didn't see this posted but it does sum up the situation but not the pieces in the trade.

Fan Fuel: Why Luongo to Leafs finally makes sense

http://www.sportsnet.ca/fanfuel/2012...leafs_canucks/
The Luongo to Toronto situation seems more like a WHEN rather than IF scenario in my opinion, and only down to a matter of the cost in assets its going to eventually cost to acquire him.

No team needs his services more than Leafs do, in order to fill a real need in net, and pressure is mounting in TO to show improvement or else.

Therefore, I put odds of acquisition at +85% plausible, but feel I'm not going to like the cost in picks/prospects it will take.

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10-21-2012, 10:29 AM
  #194
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1. Redundant Roster player (Bozak/MacA/Franson)
2. Salary Dump (Connolly/Lombardi/Komi)
3. Mid-Range pick (2nd/3rd/4th)

Gets it done.

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10-21-2012, 10:38 AM
  #195
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1. Redundant Roster player (Bozak/MacA/Franson)
2. Salary Dump (Connolly/Lombardi/Komi)
3. Mid-Range pick (2nd/3rd/4th)

Gets it done.
id give them MacA proven 20 goal scorer who has some good playmaking in him.
Tim Connolly: only has a year left but would make a decent 2nd line Center if healthy if kessler gets hurt. (reason for not putting in bozak)
2nd round pick

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10-21-2012, 10:48 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
The Luongo to Toronto situation seems more like a WHEN rather than IF scenario in my opinion, and only down to a matter of the cost in assets its going to eventually cost to acquire him.

No team needs his services more than Leafs do, in order to fill a real need in net, and pressure is mounting in TO to show improvement or else.

Therefore, I put odds of acquisition at +85% plausible, but feel I'm not going to like the cost in picks/prospects it will take.
I'm not sure it will cost as much as some here have been talking about, there is a limited number of teams that actually require a goal tender at this time and the other side of the coin, is if the Cap actually goes down, like they are predicting, not for the coming year but the next, we will have plenty of room to accommodate him.

Players Like Connolly, Lombardi and even Komisarek have hefty Cap hits but could be released or traded this year, thus freeing up a lot of Cap room for next year and too one of these players could be part of any deal for Luongo.

We also have a number of prospects in the pipeline and could move one to get him but I don't think the trade price will be that bad but again, it will totally depend on the CBA agreement and them adopting that Clause/Rule in the final agreement.

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10-21-2012, 11:06 AM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
The Luongo to Toronto situation seems more like a WHEN rather than IF scenario in my opinion, and only down to a matter of the cost in assets its going to eventually cost to acquire him.

No team needs his services more than Leafs do, in order to fill a real need in net, and pressure is mounting in TO to show improvement or else.

Therefore, I put odds of acquisition at +85% plausible, but feel I'm not going to like the cost in picks/prospects it will take.
If the cost was reasonable, then I think Florida would definitely be back in the running and Theodore to TO looks like the better fit for the club.

I am not as against the Luongo deal as I once was. It just means the club has to be conscious of adding other bad contracts (Komi, Lombo etc) while Lu's value declines. A reduced capacity to gamble on adding future veterans which BB may or may not be okay with. That is something that won't come home to roost for three or four years so it could be very tempting.

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10-21-2012, 11:12 AM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
The Luongo to Toronto situation seems more like a WHEN rather than IF scenario in my opinion, and only down to a matter of the cost in assets its going to eventually cost to acquire him.

No team needs his services more than Leafs do, in order to fill a real need in net, and pressure is mounting in TO to show improvement or else.

Therefore, I put odds of acquisition at +85% plausible, but feel I'm not going to like the cost in picks/prospects it will take.
IMO:

If the rule passes that the signing team eats a retirement deal then his value increases, and multiple teams could have interest.

If Luongo is willing to waive his clause to go to multiple locations the value increases as there is competition for his services.

I could see something like Kadri, Blacker, conditional 1st. in 2013(Leafs make playoffs), conditional 1st. in 2014(Leafs win the Cup).

Burke has shown no fears of throwing 1st. round picks into deals. Look at the depth of the Pronger deal, overall he gave up 4 first round picks for Pronger (IIRC and a 2nd.).

If Luongo is the answer and they end up in the playoffs then we're talking about a 16th. to 30th. first round pick. Kaberle landed a 1st. and former 1st. rounder (Colborne).

I'd speculate Burke would get another asset in return, someone from the Canucks farm team. Probably a middling prospect who might need a change of scenery.

Kadri, Blacker, conditional 1st.(2013 playoffs), conditional 1st.(2014 Cup)
for
Luongo, prospect.

It may be necessary to move salary from the Leafs to the Canucks to balance the cap situations out.

I know Leafs' fans will scream in abject terror, but I'm looking at Burke's history of trades, and his propensity to include picks. If the Ducks' fans were like Leafs' fans, I can just imagine how they felt about the:

Pronger
for
Joffrey Lupul
Ladislav md
2007 first-round draft pick (Nick Ross)
2008 first-round draft pick -conditional (Jordan Eberle)
2008 second-round draft pick (Travis Hamonic)

Of course they didn't know the picks would be as bad (low in the 1st. round) as they turned out.

Ducks won the Cup.

Would you take the picks back and forfeit your Cup?

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10-21-2012, 11:20 AM
  #199
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
IMO:

If the rule passes that the signing team eats a retirement deal then his value increases, and multiple teams could have interest.

If Luongo is willing to waive his clause to go to multiple locations the value increases as there is competition for his services.

I could see something like Kadri, Blacker, conditional 1st. in 2013(Leafs make playoffs), conditional 1st. in 2014(Leafs win the Cup).

Burke has shown no fears of throwing 1st. round picks into deals. Look at the depth of the Pronger deal, overall he gave up 4 first round picks for Pronger (IIRC and a 2nd.).

If Luongo is the answer and they end up in the playoffs then we're talking about a 16th. to 30th. first round pick. Kaberle landed a 1st. and former 1st. rounder (Colborne).

I'd speculate Burke would get another asset in return, someone from the Canucks farm team. Probably a middling prospect who might need a change of scenery.

Kadri, Blacker, conditional 1st.(2013 playoffs), conditional 1st.(2014 Cup)
for
Luongo, prospect.

It may be necessary to move salary from the Leafs to the Canucks to balance the cap situations out.

I know Leafs' fans will scream in abject terror, but I'm looking at Burke's history of trades, and his propensity to include picks. If the Ducks' fans were like Leafs' fans, I can just imagine how they felt about the:

Pronger
for
Joffrey Lupul
Ladislav md
2007 first-round draft pick (Nick Ross)
2008 first-round draft pick -conditional (Jordan Eberle)
2008 second-round draft pick (Travis Hamonic)

Of course they didn't know the picks would be as bad (low in the 1st. round) as they turned out.

Ducks won the Cup.

Would you take the picks back and forfeit your Cup?
Anaheim was already a contender before they added Pronger. And they only gave up an extra first because they won the cup with him.

Toronto is in a completely different situation.

And things have changed, don't assume Burke is so willing to give up first rounders now. He won't.

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10-21-2012, 11:33 AM
  #200
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Anaheim was already a contender before they added Pronger. And they only gave up an extra first because they won the cup with him.

Toronto is in a completely different situation.

And things have changed, don't assume Burke is so willing to give up first rounders now. He won't.
And the picks I have included are conditional.

I have evidence Burke willingly gives up 1st. round picks for players he wants.

That fact is irrefutable.

You can hope he doesn't again, but throughout his career he's used 1st. round picks to make things happen. I doubt he changes his spots.

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