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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part V: The "Back to square one" Edition

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10-21-2012, 10:02 AM
  #176
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Forget the owners' previous offers. Their last offer, at last, at least began to address the players' stance. The players' No. 1 principle has been "no rollback;" the owners came up with the "make whole" provision, making up for money lost on current contracts with deferred payments. The players have been willing to take less of future growth; the owners offered 50 percent of HRR. The players have asked for more revenue sharing; the owners offered $200 million – up from the $140 million from last season, not far from the $240 million the players have proposed. (Funny, you don't hear the players talk so much about that issue anymore, when that was their moral high ground before.) The players have resisted changes in contracting rules; the owners backed off a bit.

The players don't like the "make whole" provision, because it comes out of their future share. It's players paying players, not owners paying players. Well, they could have proposed that it come out of the owners' share instead. They didn't. The players could have negotiated descending percentages of HRR – going from, say, 54 down to 50 – which would still increase their pay in the long run based on their projections, which are more optimistic than the league's. They didn't. They could have tweaked the rest of the owners' proposal. They didn't. They just said no, at least according to the NHL.

By holding out, the players got the owners to make two straight proposals, to negotiate against themselves, to get about where we thought they were headed all along. Kudos. They created an opportunity.

They didn't seize it. They blew it.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl--nh...tling-cba.html

My point exactly.

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10-21-2012, 10:19 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Bettman put conditions on discussing the make whole program with Fehr



http://www.torontosun.com/2012/10/19...labour-dispute

The players accept the NHL proposal AND then Bettman will discuss the make whole.

Bettman has been doing this from day 1.

Everyone screams about the PA not willing to discuss the economic stuff. That is because Bettman puts conditions on that too. The PA has to accept the NHL's position for discussions on HRR to take place.

This is Fehr'r fault?

Fehr negotiated two CBAs in MLB without missing an inning. 2002 and 2006.

Bettman is 3 for 3 in lockouts.
The only place to fault fehr here is that none of the proposals included a version of the make whole that worked for them. Nhlpa should have countered with a version that worked for them and forced bettman to reject it, then you have the pr ammo that it was an empty gesture by the league

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10-21-2012, 10:21 AM
  #178
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There has not been one mention the players getting anything back in return for taking less. Even the increased revenue sharing is designed to help the poorer teams. The floor isn't being raised. The NBA saw increased revenue sharing with the minimum payroll increasing. The PA proposed the floor being a % of the upper limit. The NHL proposed the same $16M range. NFL minimum also increased in the NFL. Players took a cut but the bottom teams have to spend more on payroll. Not in the NHL where the floor of $43.9M will be less than the 11-12 floor with at least $50M more in revenue sharing. The Rangers will paying $24M in revenue sharing and they can't even get a compliance buyout. The Rangers have no dersire to play Redden so they will carry $6.5M of dead cap space. Good job by the NHL. Reds will be stuck in the AHL. At least he got paid but his career is essentially over.
Good point. I'm not sure I've even heard about anything the nhlpa wants in return. Their only demands is limits on how much they give

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10-21-2012, 10:28 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by CM PUNK View Post
The only place to fault fehr here is that none of the proposals included a version of the make whole that worked for them. Nhlpa should have countered with a version that worked for them and forced bettman to reject it, then you have the pr ammo that it was an empty gesture by the league
I certainly agree with that.
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Originally Posted by CM PUNK View Post
Good point. I'm not sure I've even heard about anything the nhlpa wants in return. Their only demands is limits on how much they give
1) For the umpteenth time, the players aren't "owed" anything. It's a new deal.

2) Leaving point 1 aside, you are forgetting the fact that the owners significantly upped revenue sharing in their last offer (from $140MM to $200MM). As Cotsonika points out in the article above, it's funny how how revenue sharing was such a big point a month ago and now no one's talking about it...

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10-21-2012, 10:54 AM
  #180
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So Brooks says Bettman is gonna shut down the league over 3 million per team per season.

Isn't Fehr gonna shut down the league over 130,000 per player per season?

What's 130,000 to Sidney Crosby?

Oh, it's a big deal to minimum wage players? Well, 3 million is a big deal to the Coyotes.

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10-21-2012, 10:58 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by mschmidt64 View Post
So Brooks says Bettman is gonna shut down the league over 3 million per team per season.

Isn't Fehr gonna shut down the league over 130,000 per player per season?

What's 130,000 to Sidney Crosby?

Oh, it's a big deal to minimum wage players? Well, 3 million is a big deal to the Coyotes.
Also love how he ignores that Bettman clearly has the permission of the league's owners to be handling the lockout the way he is. Just as you've clearly pointed out as well, Fehr has the players permission.

Reading Brooks and following Walsh on Twitter these days is what I imagine watching Fox News would be like if they didn't have the O'Reilly Factor.

Everyone has their agenda and is trying to push it.

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10-21-2012, 10:58 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Does anyone believe that the players weren't told the CBA was expiring and all their contracts would be subject to the new CBA?


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10-21-2012, 11:00 AM
  #183
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NHL players are sheep. They will never get back what they are about to lose. It's admirable that this is about principal for them but its about money for the owners.

There is no way possible fit the players to recoup the money they will lose. So funny how dumb they are. Another lost season. What a joke.
Bingo... the players are going to lose here.

It's funny that they want to not get paid for a year first, and then lose.

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10-21-2012, 11:59 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by mschmidt64 View Post
Does anyone believe that the players weren't told the CBA was expiring and all their contracts would be subject to the new CBA?

I'm shocked, Shocked to find out gambling goes on here.

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10-21-2012, 12:02 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by mschmidt64 View Post
Bingo... the players are going to lose here.

It's funny that they want to not get paid for a year first, and then lose.
Lose? Loss of income? definitely. I'm not sure who is taking the other side?

The question is how much are they prepared to pay to gain respect?

Maybe to the PA... winning is costing the owner's money?

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10-21-2012, 12:27 PM
  #186
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Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
Spoke with a team exec who says there's either a labor deal this week or there's no season. Not sure it's that clear-cut but who knows...


Down to the wire

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10-21-2012, 12:32 PM
  #187
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This is amazing.

We could very well be the only league in history to have two canceled seasons over a labor dispute.

Un****ingreal.

The Count needs to go.

Another lockout after the "new" CBA is all but guaranteed as well.

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10-21-2012, 01:07 PM
  #188
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Interesting spin here in an article that really number crunches the situation. If they cannot settle this soon and let the season go to smithereens over such differences --- well - then they do deserve what they get in the future...

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10-21-2012, 01:15 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by AceintheSpace View Post
This is amazing.

We could very well be the only league in history to have two canceled seasons over a labor dispute.

Un****ingreal.

The Count needs to go.

Another lockout after the "new" CBA is all but guaranteed as well.
Why would they cancel the season when it can obviously still be salvaged? It was an article based on hearsay, let common sense prevail.

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10-21-2012, 01:38 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by in the hall View Post
Why would they cancel the season when it can obviously still be salvaged? It was an article based on hearsay, let common sense prevail.

No idea what youre talking about, but im referring to the post before mine.

(psst.. Pierre Lebrun)

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10-21-2012, 01:39 PM
  #191
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Down to the wire
So pretty much there won't be a season

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Old
10-21-2012, 01:47 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
I certainly agree with that.

1) For the umpteenth time, the players aren't "owed" anything. It's a new deal.

2) Leaving point 1 aside, you are forgetting the fact that the owners significantly upped revenue sharing in their last offer (from $140MM to $200MM). As Cotsonika points out in the article above, it's funny how how revenue sharing was such a big point a month ago and now no one's talking about it...
Never said or even implied the players were owed anything. But normal these things are give and take this is more give and give. Players aren't asking for better free agency rules etc in return for what they are giving

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10-21-2012, 01:50 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by in the hall View Post
Why would they cancel the season when it can obviously still be salvaged? It was an article based on hearsay, let common sense prevail.
i agree, but you have to think that if a deal is not made soon, maybe this week they have to start thinking about canceling at least the Winter Classic and if the league is willing to lose the Winter Classic then they may just cancel the rest of the season (i think it is still too soon to cancel the season, but who knows)...I am still holding out hope they come to terms this week and we start a full season on Nov. 2nd.

I would assum that the Winter Classic will have to be cancelled soon because the planning and setting up and the 24/7 all need to really get underway of getting going (maybe not actual setting up but a lot of pieces, not too mention who is going to put time and money into creating sponsorships to an even that may not go through).

Also, I believe, truly believe if goodenow never offered a 24% rollback last time around then the owners would not be asking for that or something similar right now.

From the articles, tweets, TSN Radio, NHL Network Radio (Sat. radio) I have been reading/listening to it sounds to me, and i'd put money on this, that the majority of the owners are not all in on this lockout. From what i have heard/read they only needed a vote of 8 yes's of the 30 owners to force the lockout. And the reports and those that say bettman is just doing what the owners say, why not get a vote on the proposals the PA offered, and see what the owners what to do, he only has 30 owners to talk to...Fehr has 700+ players and he always talks to maybe not all of them, but the onese that care and are contacting him.

One final point I want to make, this HRR split we are hearing so much about, 50/50 is where it will most likely end up. It is ONLY Hockey Related Revenue, which means there is probably a lot more money on other areas the owners bring in for revenue that is not included. So when you hear the owners are losing money it is based off of the HRR numbers not the TOTAL REVENUE.

I am sorry this turned into a book, I just got typing and this is where it wound up. I am pro players. I do wish the pPA could have worked off of the owners proposal on Tuesday, and the third option by the PA was put together probably right before their meeting on Thursday, but I liked that one the best so far, and i don't understand by the league does not accept that and add in the contractual limits they so want. In principle i don't agree with owners trying to not honor the contracts they have been handing out right up to the final hour of the expiring cba. I am glad dolan was not like that, he gave out fair contracts, i think the only outrageous contract was richards and even then I full expect richard to play until he is 40 (i may be wrong but i think his contract is up when he is 40)

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10-21-2012, 01:51 PM
  #194
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So Thursday is the deadline for an 82 game season to still be intact, yet these buffoons have not even decided when to meet again...

I'm just at a lost of words.

I don't get it.

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10-21-2012, 02:50 PM
  #195
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I personally think there will be a deal done by Thursday, most likely Tue or Wed night.

Just my opinion. I've read multiple articles that state the gap between the two sides is no where near as big as it was the last lockout. To be honest, it looks like all but one aspect of this is the holding point.

Wouldn't be surprised if we ended up with a deal like 52-51.5-50.5-50-50-50. Think the players buckle a little on the contract length, maximizing it to like 6 years or so. Doesn't seem like Fehr really negotiated about the first year current contract situation last meeting, that seems to be the biggest problem now. I think the next time they talk, Fehr makes concessions on the HRR, lowering it from 54.5 or whatever he's been offering to closer to 52, while the NHL makes some concessions on helping the players with this 1st year.

Also, if y'all don't think Bettman is under a lot of fire to get this done this week think again. This is not a unified owners union right now. A lot of them want to get on with the season. Additionally, if another season is lost under Bettman he'll be gone within the next 3 years. Don't think the 2 sides meet tomorrow, but think that Bettman and Daly feel the heat by the end of tomorrow night, probably call some sort of emergency owners meeting, and offer more concessions to the NHLPA.

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10-21-2012, 02:53 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by AceintheSpace View Post
This is amazing.

We could very well be the only league in history to have two canceled seasons over a labor dispute.

Un****ingreal.

The Count needs to go.

Another lockout after the "new" CBA is all but guaranteed as well.
The NHL is the only league to have a season canceled.

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10-21-2012, 03:13 PM
  #197
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I personally think there will be a deal done by Thursday, most likely Tue or Wed night.

Just my opinion. I've read multiple articles that state the gap between the two sides is no where near as big as it was the last lockout. To be honest, it looks like all but one aspect of this is the holding point.

Wouldn't be surprised if we ended up with a deal like 52-51.5-50.5-50-50-50. Think the players buckle a little on the contract length, maximizing it to like 6 years or so. Doesn't seem like Fehr really negotiated about the first year current contract situation last meeting, that seems to be the biggest problem now. I think the next time they talk, Fehr makes concessions on the HRR, lowering it from 54.5 or whatever he's been offering to closer to 52, while the NHL makes some concessions on helping the players with this 1st year.

Also, if y'all don't think Bettman is under a lot of fire to get this done this week think again. This is not a unified owners union right now. A lot of them want to get on with the season. Additionally, if another season is lost under Bettman he'll be gone within the next 3 years. Don't think the 2 sides meet tomorrow, but think that Bettman and Daly feel the heat by the end of tomorrow night, probably call some sort of emergency owners meeting, and offer more concessions to the NHLPA.
I agree with everything you said here...i still think even if the season is not lost, bettman is gone, the fans dont like him and i think they need a more likeable commissioner in there because that will help bring more fans in...bettman seems like a sniveling weasel and i think his time is over in the nhl and they need to move on. Let's get this deal done this week and then the next week owners can fire bettman and bring in someone new.

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10-21-2012, 03:31 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
The NHL is the only league to have a season canceled.


2004-05 + 2012-13 = 2.


Reading comprehension.

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10-21-2012, 03:34 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by AceintheSpace View Post
2004-05 + 2012-13 = 2.

Read posts more carefully.
You said:
"We could very well be the only league in history to have two canceled seasons over a labor dispute."

They are already the only league to have one season canceled, so it makes no ****ing difference, right?

Learn how to make sense.

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10-21-2012, 03:38 PM
  #200
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No. The way I worded it implies thats its bad enough to have one canceled season on your resume, let alone two.
No, the way you worded it made it seem like the NHL is about to have the most seasons canceled out of every sports league.

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