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Cap Space

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Old
10-17-2012, 08:50 PM
  #1
Zippy316
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Cap Space

If the idea of trading Cap Space does wind up going through in the next CBA, what should be the value of it?

I think the key concern with people against it is that when the value lowers or when teams get rid of their cap space to just get something out of the money, they will trade it away for seemingly nothing. Then, this heavily favors the teams that can spend more versus the teams that can't spend as much, when they can get the space for virtually nothing.


What should the going rate be for 4 million of cap space? 3 million? 2 million? 1 million?

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10-17-2012, 08:52 PM
  #2
gonzo11
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the value will depend on when it is traded

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10-17-2012, 08:59 PM
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Depends on the contract and need. Teams with cap space looking to upgrade can demand a premium. Teams that are desperate may be forced to sweeten the deal with draft picks and prospects in hopes that they get any future asset (prospect with upside or player with two way eligibility) the other way.

I suspect the initial asking price will be the price paid by New Jersey a few years back (first round pick). It's a good draft though so that's going to be a hard price for some GM's. this is a game of musical chairs and your fate is worse (forfeiture of picks, fines, etc) if you fail to comply.

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10-17-2012, 10:00 PM
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Drew311
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I would assume most of these deals would be centered around prospects and draft picks. The max cap space a team could trade has been proposed at 3 million, so sending roster players the other way probably wouldn't make sense in most cases.

I'm interested to see how GM's will actually value cap space. Would anyone actually be willing tp deal a 1st round pick or top prospect?

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10-17-2012, 11:09 PM
  #5
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You aren't trading cap space, you are keeping part of the existing contract's cap hit.

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10-17-2012, 11:35 PM
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For a team to keep 3M dollars salary they would have to trade away someone with a minimum 6M cap hit. I could see adding in a pick or prospect making a difference between a team keeping 1M or 3M

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10-18-2012, 12:05 AM
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Wouldn't it be too simple to just say you buy it at face value from other teams? (so if you want to add a 2 million dollar player, you pay another team 2 million and then you can sign your guy to a 2 million dollar contract) That way, you can generate a little extra revenue for weaker teams

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10-18-2012, 12:57 AM
  #8
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I believe if the NHL's offer is accepted, you cannot simply bury a bad contract in the AHL, it still counts against your cap, so players with high cap hits and length will be virtually unmovable, so the value of certain players will drop.

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10-18-2012, 01:08 AM
  #9
me2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayP812 View Post
I believe if the NHL's offer is accepted, you cannot simply bury a bad contract in the AHL, it still counts against your cap, so players with high cap hits and length will be virtually unmovable, so the value of certain players will drop.
They could also go up if the selling team is prepared to eat salary/cap. Ideally it'd need a low payroll rich team that had both money and capspace to burn. The best way I can think of exploiting it is at the deadline - trade a player to a playoff at 1/2 cap hit so they squeeze into a tight budget. I can see playoff teams paying more for players like that.

IMHO the best way to think of it is not buying cap space but rather paying a cap penalty to trade a player. Let's take Redden. Rangers give up $3m in cap and $ to the Islanders to take Redden. Not a huge advantage to the Islanders, Redden at $3m is about right, but NYR takes a $3m cap/$ penalty to get rid of Redden. $3m penalty might be better the for NYR than $6m. If NYR throws in a good pick maybe Islanders take him at $2m penalty.

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10-18-2012, 01:47 AM
  #10
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Originally Posted by me2 View Post
They could also go up if the selling team is prepared to eat salary/cap. Ideally it'd need a low payroll rich team that had both money and capspace to burn. The best way I can think of exploiting it is at the deadline - trade a player to a playoff at 1/2 cap hit so they squeeze into a tight budget. I can see playoff teams paying more for players like that.

IMHO the best way to think of it is not buying cap space but rather paying a cap penalty to trade a player. Let's take Redden. Rangers give up $3m in cap and $ to the Islanders to take Redden. Not a huge advantage to the Islanders, Redden at $3m is about right, but NYR takes a $3m cap/$ penalty to get rid of Redden. $3m penalty might be better the for NYR than $6m. If NYR throws in a good pick maybe Islanders take him at $2m penalty.
This what I've been saying; Redden would have been in the NHL all of this time if he were $3m-$4m. Being really good, getting paid, and then declining a bit has led to EXILE! Seriously, though, I would bet on Detroit being interested in $3m Redden. He has good skills and fits the style. He's a bit old now, but he probably plays on most if not all NHL teams.

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10-18-2012, 01:00 PM
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I just don't see the point of having a salary cap if you can trade the cap space. Isn't the salary cap designed to prevent super teams? Doesn't trading space allow super teams to be created?

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10-18-2012, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
This what I've been saying; Redden would have been in the NHL all of this time if he were $3m-$4m. Being really good, getting paid, and then declining a bit has led to EXILE! Seriously, though, I would bet on Detroit being interested in $3m Redden. He has good skills and fits the style. He's a bit old now, but he probably plays on most if not all NHL teams.
I said at the time of his departure that it had nothing to do with his ability. He was still quality, just not worth the money.

That beign said, he's 35 years old and two years removed from NHL competition. I highly doubt he's NHL caliber anymore, and no team is going to take that risk.

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10-18-2012, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
I just don't see the point of having a salary cap if you can trade the cap space. Isn't the salary cap designed to prevent super teams? Doesn't trading space allow super teams to be created?
No, it's designed to keep player costs fixed. The parity that it brings is either an over-exaggerated selling point to the smaller markets, or a fringe benefit that sort of comes out of it.

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10-18-2012, 01:17 PM
  #14
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Originally Posted by brs03 View Post
No, it's designed to keep player costs fixed. The parity that it brings is either an over-exaggerated selling point to the smaller markets, or a fringe benefit that sort of comes out of it.
It does allow for super teams though. Lets say the Rangers (or other rich team of your choice) have 5M in cap space. They can trade for TWO 5M players rather than just one by bribing the other team(s) to keep that 2.5M on their books. The issue of course is convincing the other team to keep paying that 2.5M in salary they'd still be on the hook for every year, but it IS a possibility.

My question is related to the length of keeping the cap hit - is it a recurring trade cost every year, is there a limit on the years of cap that can be traded, etc. I can't see a team being willing to carry a cap hit for more than 2 years without charging an exorbitant rate for it (with regards to rich teams accumulating talent, clearly the main reason for this is so rich teams can unload players they don't want for half their cap space in return).

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10-18-2012, 06:47 PM
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IMO the price for straight up salary cap will be the same as a player with a similar salary. For example, a player who earns $5 million is likely worth a first round pick and a small addition, so $5 million in cap is worth the same amount. A player worth $2 million likely would be traded for a 3rd round pick, so $2 million in cap space will cost a 3rd round pick. This changes based on the time of year (ie. costs go up towards the trade deadline, just as they do with players)

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10-18-2012, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by DropkickQuinn View Post
IMO the price for straight up salary cap will be the same as a player with a similar salary. For example, a player who earns $5 million is likely worth a first round pick and a small addition, so $5 million in cap is worth the same amount. A player worth $2 million likely would be traded for a 3rd round pick, so $2 million in cap space will cost a 3rd round pick. This changes based on the time of year (ie. costs go up towards the trade deadline, just as they do with players)
Max cap space to be traded is 3 million.

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10-18-2012, 09:33 PM
  #17
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Originally Posted by DropkickQuinn View Post
IMO the price for straight up salary cap will be the same as a player with a similar salary. For example, a player who earns $5 million is likely worth a first round pick and a small addition, so $5 million in cap is worth the same amount. A player worth $2 million likely would be traded for a 3rd round pick, so $2 million in cap space will cost a 3rd round pick. This changes based on the time of year (ie. costs go up towards the trade deadline, just as they do with players)
But what's the difference based on the length of the contract? A trade deadline rental vs being saddled with that cap hit for 5 years?

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10-21-2012, 03:03 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippy316 View Post
If the idea of trading Cap Space does wind up going through in the next CBA, what should be the value of it?

I think the key concern with people against it is that when the value lowers or when teams get rid of their cap space to just get something out of the money, they will trade it away for seemingly nothing. Then, this heavily favors the teams that can spend more versus the teams that can't spend as much, when they can get the space for virtually nothing.

What should the going rate be for 4 million of cap space? 3 million? 2 million? 1 million?
Other factors aside, such as possible changes about burying players, etc., I'm not disputing what you said, but remember your point I highlighted was not initially so.

In theory, at one point, all teams were cap equal.

Then by luck or design, team A got in trouble by going/threatening having to go over.

Team B, also by luck or design, did not go/have to go over.

But there is a potential cyclical balance to these things; if you don't keep screwing up, you don't have repeated cap trouble.

So developments may be exploited by both those with either side of the cap picture.

But I don't see it is an inherent advantage to rich or poor market teams, generally, isolated exceptions aside (like being able to bury Redden).

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10-21-2012, 03:16 PM
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InfinityIggy
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What about doing it in a similar structure to offer sheets:

3 Million = 1st Rounder
2 Million = 2nd Rounder
1 Million = 3rd Rounder

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10-21-2012, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
I said at the time of his departure that it had nothing to do with his ability. He was still quality, just not worth the money.

That beign said, he's 35 years old and two years removed from NHL competition. I highly doubt he's NHL caliber anymore, and no team is going to take that risk.
Thats sounds like Sykora, 35 years old and well he was only a year away from NHL competetion

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10-21-2012, 03:44 PM
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I can see some trades of space for a pick happening, but more likely I see it as a throw in when dumping a big contract. For instance, if Leino were traded, maybe buffalo adds 1mil in space with him to make him a more attractive piece

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10-21-2012, 06:41 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by Top 6 Spaling View Post
I can see some trades of space for a pick happening, but more likely I see it as a throw in when dumping a big contract. For instance, if Leino were traded, maybe buffalo adds 1mil in space with him to make him a more attractive piece
If you just keep lowering his cap hit/cash by offsetting it then you might as well keep him. The issue here is that you still have to add picks/prospects to make it worthwhile to gain any immediate help,

Eg Leino sucks at $4.5m cap hit ($6m cash this year).

1. If Buffalo wants to make him attractive they eat $2.25m (50%). At that price they might as well keep him.

2. Buffalo eats $1m. At $3.5m they'd still need to throw in quality picks and prospects.

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Old
10-24-2012, 06:24 PM
  #23
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Supply and demand.

There will be more teams with free space to trade than teams wanting more space! And all these teams with free cap space have absolutely no use with their cap, they all will be willing to trade it.

I expect the rate would be lower than you suggest.

A fixed compensation could be an idea, instead of a free market.

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10-24-2012, 06:26 PM
  #24
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2nd round pick to Phoenix for 2 yrs of 10m cap space.

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Old
10-24-2012, 06:32 PM
  #25
palindrom
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Just for fun, lets make an auction!

I am the GM of a team in need of 3 000 000$ cap space, i am going to accept the lowest asking price!

So fans of teams with a free 3 000 000$ cap space,(for 1 year) what is your asking price ? (and remember i will take the lowest asking price!)

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