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Old
10-21-2012, 11:15 PM
  #301
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Marcus Foligno, Justin Schultz, Cody Hodgson, and Zach Boychuk are all players that are in the top 20 AHL scoring. do you think that their numbers and readiness for the NHL season are not crucial right now. do you actually think Carolina are saying about Boychuk: "let the boy develop. he only just turned 23." no! no! no! they are telling him to compete and be the best he can be. Carolina will be expected to compete hard for the post-season.

why don't we expect this from Kadri. i sure do. he has to shape up. he has to show that we made the right decision to hang on to him all this time. Burke drafted him and he needs him more than ever.

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10-21-2012, 11:29 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by JMcLeaf View Post
Hopefully he can find some chemistry with Frattin when he returns
It won't make a difference in the long run. Frattin's a 3rd/4th liner, while Kadri will most likely develop into a top 6. Hopefully Kadri can find some chemistry with some of our skilled players: Kessel, Lupul, JVR, etc.

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10-21-2012, 11:32 PM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
Marcus Foligno, Justin Schultz, Cody Hodgson, and Zach Boychuk are all players that are in the top 20 AHL scoring. do you think that their numbers and readiness for the NHL season are not crucial right now. do you actually think Carolina are saying about Boychuk: "let the boy develop. he only just turned 23." no! no! no! they are telling him to compete and be the best he can be. Carolina will be expected to compete hard for the post-season.

why don't we expect this from Kadri. i sure do. he has to shape up. he has to show that we made the right decision to hang on to him all this time. Burke drafted him and he needs him more than ever.
He's been our property for 3 years.. Hardly "all this time". And who said Kadri isn't giving it his all in the AHL? It's been FIVE games for gods sake..

Dude just give it up.

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what does this mean? we shouldn't make comments and have opinions about how players are doing, and what we think about their performance?

is anyone stopping the players from playing, and the coaches from coaching? or hindering them in any way?

if kadri has 2 goals and 2 assists in his next game, should nobody mention it?
Yes, certainly, after each and every game it is properly best to overreact to the events that had just occurred on the ice -- good or bad. A far better idea than just sitting back, letting a fair number of games pass by and developing a more thorough and accurate opinion of the player at hand.


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10-21-2012, 11:40 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
It won't make a difference in the long run. Frattin's a 3rd/4th liner, while Kadri will most likely develop into a top 6. Hopefully Kadri can find some chemistry with some of our skilled players: Kessel, Lupul, JVR, etc.
Why can't Frattin end up being a 2nd line winger? I think with our future depth he will end up on the 3rd line, but he has the skill to on the 2nd line IMO.

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10-21-2012, 11:42 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
It won't make a difference in the long run. Frattin's a 3rd/4th liner, while Kadri will most likely develop into a top 6. Hopefully Kadri can find some chemistry with some of our skilled players: Kessel, Lupul, JVR, etc.
Frattin is a 3rd liner, at worst. He is not going to be a 4th liner at any point in his career.

I'm not even a huge Frattin fan but it's not hard to see why he'll excel. He's built like a truck, has good legs, a dirty snipe and a good mind for the game. Furthermore, like Bozak when we signed him a few years back he's been developing for a number of years at the college level and at age 24 is ready to step right onto an NHL roster and contribute. In 36 games that Frattin suited up for, for the Marlies (including 13 playoff games) he potted 24 goals. That's a 55 goal pace for a player in his first year of professional hockey.

Like someone posted a few pages ago, I love how you people talk in absolutes.

"Kadri won't amount to anything at the NHL level"

"Kadri will be a top 6 player, but never for the Leafs!"

and now,

"Frattin will not amount to anything more than a 3rd or 4th liner"

How are you at liberty to make such absolute statements? How do you know that Kadri & Frattin won't play together for the duration of the AHL season and develop insane chemistry, come into camp for the 13/14 and make the roster together forming 2 parts of our 3rd line. Since they are a perfect match (playmaker with great vision and stickhandling + goalscorer with great shot and physicality) they are able to help each other in translating their games to the NHL level and slowly progress through the NHL line-up.

Why don't you people consider alternate scenarios before posting? I understand, and appreciate that you have opinions, but your opinion does not equal fact. And neither does mine.

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10-22-2012, 12:06 AM
  #306
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You say he'll be a 3rd liner in worst case, I say he'll be a 3rd liner in best case. I don't really see that much of a difference. His lack of vision and general awareness on the ice is what will prevent him from becoming a good 2nd liner. This is not something players start developing at the age of 24+.

His build, speed and shot will likely enable him to be an effective 3rd liner, if he gets a lot better in the defensive zone (this can be learned, so not too concerned about it atm). Worst case, he can be a Mike Brown type 4th liner. I really don't see how that's a bad thing. Even if he has absolutely 0 vision, I still love what Brown brings to the team.

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Originally Posted by JMcLeaf View Post
Why can't Frattin end up being a 2nd line winger? I think with our future depth he will end up on the 3rd line, but he has the skill to on the 2nd line IMO.
Think of current contending teams. Which wingers could you see Frattin being able to replace without missing a beat? To me, Frattin on the 2nd line means that we severely lack quality wingers in order to be contenders.

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10-22-2012, 12:12 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Think of current contending teams. Which wingers could you see Frattin being able to replace without missing a beat? To me, Frattin on the 2nd line means that we severely lack quality wingers in order to be contenders.
Now? Probably none. In a year or two? Who knows. They guy has a great shot, can skate well and hits like a bull. I have high expectations for him.

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10-22-2012, 12:23 AM
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Frattin is a 3rd liner, at worst. He is not going to be a 4th liner at any point in his career.

I'm not even a huge Frattin fan but it's not hard to see why he'll excel. He's built like a truck, has good legs, a dirty snipe and a good mind for the game. Furthermore, like Bozak when we signed him a few years back he's been developing for a number of years at the college level and at age 24 is ready to step right onto an NHL roster and contribute. In 36 games that Frattin suited up for, for the Marlies (including 13 playoff games) he potted 24 goals. That's a 55 goal pace for a player in his first year of professional hockey.

Like someone posted a few pages ago, I love how you people talk in absolutes.

"Kadri won't amount to anything at the NHL level"

"Kadri will be a top 6 player, but never for the Leafs!"

and now,

"Frattin will not amount to anything more than a 3rd or 4th liner"

How are you at liberty to make such absolute statements? How do you know that Kadri & Frattin won't play together for the duration of the AHL season and develop insane chemistry, come into camp for the 13/14 and make the roster together forming 2 parts of our 3rd line. Since they are a perfect match (playmaker with great vision and stickhandling + goalscorer with great shot and physicality) they are able to help each other in translating their games to the NHL level and slowly progress through the NHL line-up.

Why don't you people consider alternate scenarios before posting? I understand, and appreciate that you have opinions, but your opinion does not equal fact. And neither does mine.
It's funny how people don't realize that patience especially for skilled and talented players take time to figure it all out.

Logan Couture...Claude Giroux...Loui Ericksson...T.J. Oshie...David Backes...Chris Kunitz...Pavel Datsyuk...Henrik Zetterberg...Tomas Pleckanec...Ryan Kesler...Nathan Horton....Stephen Weiss....and god knows how many more. All have taken their sweet time, they all have taken different paths before they hit their stride, their ETA to the league for consistency? Age 24, before that? 22-21ish showing flashes of brilliance but not getting it down aka having all the tools but no toolbox. I am not worried about him at all. Everyone of those players have taken their time and made a good pace for the bigs, some have made amazing impact ofc. He'll be fine, people praise Frattin over Kadri not realizing Matt has already had 3+ years of development.

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10-22-2012, 12:24 AM
  #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMcLeaf View Post
Now? Probably none. In a year or two? Who knows. They guy has a great shot, can skate well and hits like a bull. I have high expectations for him.
I personally see him on the third line who can jump on the second line if needed be in a very good team. He wouldn't miss a beat if he does stay on a second line. David jones would be a nice type of player we can hope for him to be.

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10-22-2012, 12:25 AM
  #310
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The only thing we need to do with Kadri is keep him.

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10-22-2012, 12:27 AM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
I personally see him on the third line who can jump on the second line if needed be in a very good team. He wouldn't miss a beat if he does stay on a second line. David jones would be a nice type of player we can hope for him to be.
Sounds about right, average 20 goal scorer that will tease with 30 every now and then. Probably deserves a pass for his comeback season from that sad knee injury.

Also, I disagree with a Jones comparison very much Jones is more of a 2nd line banger with decent hands while Kadri has elite stickhandling skills.


Last edited by AmazedRink: 10-22-2012 at 12:38 AM.
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10-22-2012, 12:29 AM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
I personally see him on the third line who can jump on the second line if needed be in a very good team. He wouldn't miss a beat if he does stay on a second line. David jones would be a nice type of player we can hope for him to be.
Great post above this one, and I love the comparison. I think Frattin can pot in the vicinity of ~20G-40pts and regularly slot in on different spots in your top 9. He is a versatile player with his physicality and shot which should (and will be) utilized by Carlyle, and his future coaches.

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10-22-2012, 12:34 AM
  #313
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Originally Posted by AmazedRink View Post
Sounds about right, average 20 goal scorer that will tease with 30 every now and then. Probably deserves a pass for his comeback season from that sad knee injury.
So you're expecting him to become about the same quality player as Grabo is?

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10-22-2012, 12:53 AM
  #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazedRink View Post
Sounds about right, average 20 goal scorer that will tease with 30 every now and then. Probably deserves a pass for his comeback season from that sad knee injury.

Also, I disagree with a Jones comparison very much Jones is more of a 2nd line banger with decent hands while Kadri has elite stickhandling skills.
I was speaking about Frattin being compared to David Jones, not Kadri.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Great post above this one, and I love the comparison. I think Frattin can pot in the vicinity of ~20G-40pts and regularly slot in on different spots in your top 9. He is a versatile player with his physicality and shot which should (and will be) utilized by Carlyle, and his future coaches.
Yeap, he's the guy who can just gel and get the job done when we need him. Him with a playmaker at his side, he could likely be dancing around the 30 goal mark.

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10-22-2012, 01:27 AM
  #315
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
So you're expecting him to become about the same quality player as Grabo is?
If he develops properly, hopefully better.

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10-22-2012, 01:29 AM
  #316
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Wow, if reality was anything close to the homer predictions on this board nobody on the leafs would ever score less than 20 goals

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10-22-2012, 01:42 AM
  #317
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Wow, if reality was anything close to the homer predictions on this board nobody on the leafs would ever score less than 20 goals
Oh, your right.. How dare we be optimistic about our promising young prospects?

Furthermore.. Since when is expecting a 20G season from a guy who scored 36G in 44gp in his last college campaign and followed that up by scoring at a 55G pace over almost 40 games in his first professional campaign with the Marlies a "homer prediction".

20G is generally the benchmark for a relatively productive offensive player, which we seemingly wrongly believe he can become.

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10-22-2012, 01:49 AM
  #318
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Wow, if reality was anything close to the homer predictions on this board nobody on the leafs would ever score less than 20 goals
For any reasonably talented player with even an average amount of skill, scoring 20 goals in a season isn't really all that difficult. How many times did Alexei Ponikarovsky do it? If he can do it not once, but multiple times, then I think Frattin and Kadri should be able to as well.

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10-22-2012, 01:58 AM
  #319
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Originally Posted by MorriPage View Post
For any reasonably talented player with even an average amount of skill, scoring 20 goals in a season isn't really all that difficult. How many times did Alexei Ponikarovsky do it? If he can do it not once, but multiple times, then I think Frattin and Kadri should be able to as well.
Sure, let's just get another Sundin to give Frattin a piggyback ride to multiple 20 goal seasons (something Poni hasn't gotten a sniff of since leaving TO).

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10-22-2012, 02:07 AM
  #320
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Sure, let's just get another Sundin to give Frattin a piggyback ride to multiple 20 goal seasons (something Poni hasn't gotten a sniff of since leaving TO).
Mats Sundin left the Leafs after the 07/08 season.

Alexei Ponikarovsky had the best season of his career in 08/09 scoring 23G-61pts which he followed up by scoring 21G-50pts in the 09/10 season.

Is it really that hard to fact check..?..

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10-22-2012, 02:10 AM
  #321
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Sure, let's just get another Sundin to give Frattin a piggyback ride to multiple 20 goal seasons (something Poni hasn't gotten a sniff of since leaving TO).
You do realize Ponikarovsky scored 20 goals in the following 2 seasons after Sundin left right? His numbers dipped since then, but it's because he's a redundant player who is a 3rd liner on good teams, unlike in TO where he was given top six ice time frequently.

Edit: Lol HockeyThoughts beat me to it. Guy's been killing it in this thread, I admire how hard he's trying because quite frankly I'd end up with an aneurysm dealing with some of these people if I put in as much effort as he is.

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10-22-2012, 02:26 AM
  #322
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Originally Posted by LeafOfBread View Post
You do realize Ponikarovsky scored 20 goals in the following 2 seasons after Sundin left right? His numbers dipped since then, but it's because he's a redundant player who is a 3rd liner on good teams, unlike in TO where he was given top six ice time frequently.

Edit: Lol HockeyThoughts beat me to it. Guy's been killing it in this thread, I admire how hard he's trying because quite frankly I'd end up with an aneurysm dealing with some of these people if I put in as much effort as he is.
Thanks for making the exact same point I made a couple of hours ago (Poni, whose potential is being compared to Frattin's, only being a 3rd liner on good teams). I'm sure it sounded better when you thought of it, though.

Only on a crappy Leafs team would Poni average 16 mins / game with 2+ PP mins to boot. Should Frattin get those type of minutes in the next few years on the Leafs... it wouldn't bode well for our forward depth.

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10-22-2012, 02:31 AM
  #323
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Thanks for making the exact same point I made a couple of hours ago (Poni, whose potential is being compared to Frattin's, only being a 3rd liner on good teams). I'm sure it sounded better when you thought of it, though.

Only on a crappy Leafs team would Poni average 16 mins / game with 2+ PP mins to boot. Should Frattin get those type of minutes in the next few years on the Leafs... it wouldn't bode well for our forward depth.
So I guess we agree then.

Frattin would likely be a 3rd liner on a good (Cup-contending) team, and a top 6'er on a team lacking winger depth.

I don't know how that translates to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4evaBlue
Frattin's a 3rd/4th liner
I repeat, Frattin will never be a 4th liner. He has too much offensive ability to only play 5-8mins a game.

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10-22-2012, 02:44 AM
  #324
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
So I guess we agree then.

Frattin would likely be a 3rd liner on a good (Cup-contending) team, and a top 6'er on a team lacking winger depth.

I don't know how that translates to:


I repeat, Frattin will never be a 4th liner. He has too much offensive ability to only play 5-8mins a game.
I wasn't the one who said he'd be a multiple 20 goal scorer in the NHL. Should that happen, absolutely, he'd definitely have the offensive ability to be a solid 3rd liner on a strong team. How likely is that to happen? Time will tell.

Third liners are usually less about offensive production and more about defensive awareness (especially on the Leafs, since our top 6 generally sucks defensively). The two are not mutually exclusive, but solid defensive ability is a must. Frattin still needs to work on that aspect of his game.

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10-22-2012, 02:47 AM
  #325
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And to finally get back on topic...

Given how pathetic our 6 top is defensively (with the exception of Kulemin), I find it pretty funny that Kadri got ripped on for his defensive play, and the fact that it was the main reason why he was yoyo'd back and forth between the two leagues.

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