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The Luongo Thread [Mod Warning in OP]

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Old
10-22-2012, 01:38 AM
  #326
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by LuckyLager View Post
This is going to border on off-topic here, but they are definitely still elite top line players. Henrik led the conference in scoring last year, and Daniel was still top 10 despite missing 10 games after being on the receiving end of the dirtiest play of the year.
Yes I know where they finished poin twise, alot of top players had injuries or had slightly down years in scoring, especially in the West.

The Sedins played the most protected minutes of any 1st line in the league with offensive zone starts which is the most revealing part.

Even adjusted Hanks has been 119,101, 90 in the last 3 years, he is trending the wrong way.

Both Sedins shots per game have trended downwards from their peak in 10 as well which is another downward trend indicator.

the window is like right now and Gillis needs to get established players that can help right now for Lou.

and let's not kid ourselves here Toronto and Burke especially need an upgrade in Goal to make the playoffs and preserve Burkes job.

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10-22-2012, 01:38 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by LuckyLager View Post
I agree, it's a good, but not great return. Like I said though, it just seems like it's halfway between the "immediate upgrade package" and the "quality futures package" that we would desire.

On a different note, how's Kadri looked on the Marlies so far this year?
Good overall, hasn't been able to score like he wants to yet. His overall game has been good, not great but good thus far.

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10-22-2012, 01:40 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'm not going any lower. Finn, Kadri, Bozak for Luongo + 3rd.

Maybe maybe you could get me to drop the 3rd and swap Kadri for Colborne, but I have a feeling Kadri's on his way out of TO.
I doubt Burke would deal Finn in a deal right now, the scouts are in love with the kid and he's a local boy. He's also a pretty good prospect with nice upside. I honestly think he's one of the last prospects you'd see Burke deal.

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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Nope. Just reasonable value for a goalie as good as Roberto Luongo. We aren't talking about trading someone like Corey Crawford or Antti Niemi to the Leafs. We're talking about a legitimate elite franchise goaltender. I think over all of the bickering and constant trashing of contract lengths that this fact has been forgotten.
Legitimate franchise goalie? do you honestly still believe that? if that were true, a)why deal him? b)why would the consensus be guys like Kadri being a centerpiece? I like Luongo and I'd be happy to have him here but he put up a .919SV% last season. The league average was .914. Does that scream legit franchise goalie? It's more like good, above-average goalie with experience(who's contract is bad no matter how it's twisted).

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10-22-2012, 01:43 AM
  #329
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Why is Rielly even being brought up? this is why I love this site, people cry about the constant Leafs threads,trolls,all the focus on Toronto and how we hype players up supposedly then the same people bring up a prospect who's irrelevant to the discussion while saying they like him but then making a sarcastic comparison to Bobby Orr. Leafs fans are only half the problem in these discussions.
Okay point taken but me thinks you are being a bit sensitive here, can't one have a sense of humour on here?

Take a close look at any threads involving Reilly before and after the draft and how he is pumped up by the Leafs faith full.

If NYI had taken Reilly and Toronto had taken Reinhart the same type of attention and hype would be given to Reinhart.

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10-22-2012, 01:49 AM
  #330
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I doubt Burke would deal Finn in a deal right now, the scouts are in love with the kid and he's a local boy. He's also a pretty good prospect with nice upside. I honestly think he's one of the last prospects you'd see Burke deal.
Finn would be a nice piece but Gillis is in the win now moment.


Quote:
Legitimate franchise goalie? do you honestly still believe that? if that were true, a)why deal him? b)why would the consensus be guys like Kadri being a centerpiece? I like Luongo and I'd be happy to have him here but he put up a .919SV% last season. The league average was .914. Does that scream legit franchise goalie? It's more like good, above-average goalie with experience(who's contract is bad no matter how it's twisted).
Lou probably isn't a "franchise" goalie any more but he is an upgrade on the .900 save % that the Leafs had last year.

If Burke is sold on Reimer getting back to his .921 mark then he doesn't make the deal, or is less inclined to do so given the margin of error and lack of proven alternative.

Most people and Burke too I would think, know that the Leafs are a playoff team with Lou in net and that's why it's a good fit.

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10-22-2012, 01:52 AM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Okay point taken but me thinks you are being a bit sensitive here, can't one have a sense of humour on here?

Take a close look at any threads involving Reilly before and after the draft and how he is pumped up by the Leafs faith full.

If NYI had taken Reilly and Toronto had taken Reinhart the same type of attention and hype would be given to Reinhart.
I rather not get involved but I do want to make several points. I don't think it's a case of being sensitive or not having a sense of humor (Leafs fans have to have thick skin and do for the most part), rather that post had 0% related to the subject at hand or what that individual posted.

EVERY fan base pumps or over hypes they're own prospects at some point, it's normal. Fans are just excited.

I would recommend you to review most of Rielly's scouting reports by various scouting agencies before ASSUMING a fan base is overrating or over hyping a prospect. I can list several for you if you want me to.

Rielly is currently 2nd I believe in CHL PPG for D and tied for 2nd in WHL defenseman scoring. I would say when a prospect is performing that well, combined with scouting reports PRIOR to getting drafted by Leafs (in other case, becomes overrated, that's a sense of humor for you ) then I would say Leafs fans SHOULD be excited about such a prospect without being ridiculed for.


Last edited by Sonny21: 10-22-2012 at 01:58 AM.
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10-22-2012, 01:53 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Okay point taken but me thinks you are being a bit sensitive here, can't one have a sense of humour on here?

Take a close look at any threads involving Reilly before and after the draft and how he is pumped up by the Leafs faith full.

If NYI had taken Reilly and Toronto had taken Reinhart the same type of attention and hype would be given to Reinhart.
Honestly, I really don't think it would. Reinhart is definitely a great prospect but he is certainly the type to fly under the radar. He's got a well rounded game, but he isn't flashy in any sense of the word. However, I would say that Reinhart is likely the better defenseman in his own zone when compared to Rielly.

Would Leaf fans be excited about Reinhart? Most definitely. He like Rielly would be a recent top 5 pick who we expect to be a cornerstone on our blueline for years to come.

However, Rielly is a different type of prospect. Like Galchenyuk who was drafted a spot before Rielly, and two before Rielly, he missed the vast majority of the 11/12 season. Both Rielly and Galchenyuk were said to have immense potential but really most of this was hearsay. Rielly plays a high-risk, uptempo offensive game. The type of game that brings people out of their seats with his refined skating skills and superb puck skills. After a summer of scouts and analysts considering the prospect that Rielly is likely the defenseman with the highest upside from the 2012 Draft, Leaf fans are understandably ecstatic to see their guy get off to such a scorching hot start to the season.

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10-22-2012, 02:00 AM
  #333
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How about we add a prospect/roster player and you add conditional 2nd pick if Bozak re-signs?
Although I would fight hard for Kadri, Bozak and Finn, I would probably eventually agree to something like this. I know it's too early to tell but it is a little disheartening to see Schroeder not doing as well as I hoped for in the minors and although it could very well be due to the incompentence of his linemates it just is a risky move having him slotted into a roster spot with no alternative. Kadri is a very good prospect that I would love to have. Don't know who the prospect or roster player would be, but unless it is a cap dump this trade seems somewhat appealing.


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10-22-2012, 02:02 AM
  #334
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It's the " I wouldnt take anything less than xyz player, otherwise no deal" comments that i find very amusing and juvenile, considering no one has any control or say what may or may not transpire.
You should interpret these comments as that posters marginal value for a player.

After seeing Lack, who is considered one of the AHL's best goalies, this weekend. I'm more than comfortable heading into next season with the equivalent of $9.3m of cap space tied up in Schneider and Luongo, especially if there is a compressed schedule.

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10-22-2012, 02:08 AM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
I doubt Burke would deal Finn in a deal right now, the scouts are in love with the kid and he's a local boy. He's also a pretty good prospect with nice upside. I honestly think he's one of the last prospects you'd see Burke deal.


Legitimate franchise goalie? do you honestly still believe that? if that were true, a)why deal him? b)why would the consensus be guys like Kadri being a centerpiece? I like Luongo and I'd be happy to have him here but he put up a .919SV% last season. The league average was .914. Does that scream legit franchise goalie? It's more like good, above-average goalie with experience(who's contract is bad no matter how it's twisted).
Franchise goalie, yes. 33 years old, and is 2nd in active goalie wins. He was very good last year as a #1, en route to another Pres trophy, carrying the team through a late-season scoring drought (when other teams were playing desperate, and we had Lappiere covering for D. Sedin). We lost to the eventual cup winners, and Schneider had earned some playoff starts, especially considering the team -not Luongo- played poorly the first few games.

Schneider has been lights out since he was drafted, and Lack is as good a goalie prospect as there is. Makes sense to get younger in net (since we believe in Schneider and Lack) while getting more youth for Luongo to keep our cupboards stocked.

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10-22-2012, 02:28 AM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Okay point taken but me thinks you are being a bit sensitive here, can't one have a sense of humour on here?

Take a close look at any threads involving Reilly before and after the draft and how he is pumped up by the Leafs faith full.

If NYI had taken Reilly and Toronto had taken Reinhart the same type of attention and hype would be given to Reinhart.
No, it wouldn't be. If anything, people would be disappointed that we selected Reinhart. We already have enough defensemen like him in the system, or ones that play a similar style.

We didn't really have anyone like Morgan Rielly though. Rielly has elite offensive skill and is also good on the defensive side, he's a very smart player but also very exciting, kind of like Karlsson. While we have Gardiner, he doesn't possess the same hockey IQ that Rielly does and is more offensively focused, while Rielly brings the whole package.

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10-22-2012, 02:36 AM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
The Canucks were the 2nd ranked even strength team in the league in '10-11 and the 4th ranked even strength team in '11-12.

You don't like arrogance, I don't like ignorance.
putting words in people's mouth is a good example of arrogance. Vancouver has obviously a great 5 on 5 game. care to point me where I said otherwise ? They do rely on their powerplay a lot during the reg. season (if not top Power play goals ... they are up there every year) ...nothing wrong with that ... they are monsters on the powerplay ... and a lot of points from your top players come from that deadly PP. When the POs are around, and teams are throwing themselves in shot lines and are more aggressive, perhaps it affects the canucks more than any other team in the NHL.

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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
I really think the biggest problem here is people getting off topic, is that not why the other threads have been locked time and time again. Don't see the relevance in your statement in regards to Luongo's value and our "power play heroes" but if you could enlighten me that would be awesome.

I would rather keep Luongo unless we can get something that can actually improve our chances of winning and not just to make sure we don't run into supposed locker room mayhem. I would be willing to wait and watch as teams who run with sketchy goltending get desperate than sell low now.
Ill agree that I had one foot outside the track when I read my post again. I got tired reading Playstation managers talk about how Luongo was expandable and that schneider was their go to guy. What vancouver will have in return for Luongo is nowhere near some fans' expectations . But yet , when you scroll down in here, it seems like Vancouver is holding the stick ready to cash in on some kind of miracle. Goalie matters are sensible ... and VAN fans seem to think they are a lock to top 5 every year ... but they take the greatness of they club a bit for granted (arrogance) and in this particular case, being careless about how you handle goalies could set the canucks back a couple of years imho. I agree with your 2nd paragraph, you're spot on. I reffered to the powerplay heroes who becames ghosts in the POs only to highlight the fact that nothing should be taken for granted . tired of reading that the nucks ''don't need'' Luongo. He's worth more to the canucks that anything they would obtain in return. It could change ... but I wouldn't want to be Gillis, unlike some so-called experts around here.

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10-22-2012, 02:36 AM
  #338
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Franchise goalie, yes. 33 years old, and is 2nd in active goalie wins. He was very good last year as a #1, en route to another Pres trophy, carrying the team through a late-season scoring drought (when other teams were playing desperate, and we had Lappiere covering for D. Sedin). We lost to the eventual cup winners, and Schneider had earned some playoff starts, especially considering the team -not Luongo- played poorly the first few games.

Schneider has been lights out since he was drafted, and Lack is as good a goalie prospect as there is. Makes sense to get younger in net (since we believe in Schneider and Lack) while getting more youth for Luongo to keep our cupboards stocked.
Considering the save percentage only being a few points above the average in the league, how can you still call him a franchise goalie? is this were the case, how many "franchise" goalies are there in the NHL? I'm not bashing Luongo, I like him and I want him here but I don't understand how this tag is on him.

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10-22-2012, 02:57 AM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
Considering the save percentage only being a few points above the average in the league, how can you still call him a franchise goalie? is this were the case, how many "franchise" goalies are there in the NHL? I'm not bashing Luongo, I like him and I want him here but I don't understand how this tag is on him.
If you take out Oct and Nov last season, Lui put up something like a .928, I know it is posted somewhere in one of the Luongo threads. But he was one of the best goalies last season, he just got off to a terrible start. You couple that together with his previous year with a Jennings trophy and Vezena nom, and it says he still has it.

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10-22-2012, 02:59 AM
  #340
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I agree, it's a good, but not great return. Like I said though, it just seems like it's halfway between the "immediate upgrade package" and the "quality futures package" that we would desire.

On a different note, how's Kadri looked on the Marlies so far this year?
I totally agree with this, some proposals aren't that bad value wise, but they just don't help us. We need to either be a better team or have a brighter future.

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10-22-2012, 03:18 AM
  #341
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I think Lu will be a pretty good goalie for 2-3 more years. Heres some proposals from a neutral fan

Kadri+Kulemin
Kadri is a good prospect, not guarantee hell pan out. Probaly a 40-50 pt player. Kulemin is a good defensive winger, offensive ability is questionable (probaly 15-20 goal guy) but hed be what Van needs in the playoffs. This is the most logical deal as Van gets a much needed prospect.

Bozak + 1st
Second most logical deal. Van gets a good #3 center. The 1st round pick could turn out to be a lotto pick. This deal is riskier since Lu could really help them. Or it could be a jackpot with 2013 solid draft class

Grabovski + Ashton
Grabo is a good 2 line center if Keslers injury continues to affect him. Ashton is a decent prospect that will help them in the future

Gardiner
Van might have to add a pick or some prospect since hes a pretty promising defenseman. I dont know how well hed fit into Vans top 4
As a Leafs fan, i'll go with none of the above. If that's the return Vancouver is going to get, i'll happily pass.

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10-22-2012, 03:18 AM
  #342
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Luongo + Raymond for Kulemin, Bozak + Colborne/Ashton/Biggs/Blacker/Finn would interest me too. No untouchable pieces from TO in there, but I imagine they wouldn't want to give up Kulemin and Bozak. Our roster would be amazing though.

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Booth-Kesler-Kulemin
Higgins-Bozak-Hansen
Malhotra-Lapierre-Kassian
Not really that much of an improvement over:
Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Booth - Kesler - Raymond
Hansen - Higgins - Kassian
Malholtra - Lapierre - Weise

The difference is now you when you rest Schneider you will have Lack in net instead of Luongo, in a compressed 82 games season I bet that's worth about 5-10 wins (over 30 games) which is the difference between winning the division or being on the bubble.

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10-22-2012, 03:18 AM
  #343
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If you take out Oct and Nov last season, Lui put up something like a .928, I know it is posted somewhere in one of the Luongo threads. But he was one of the best goalies last season, he just got off to a terrible start. You couple that together with his previous year with a Jennings trophy and Vezena nom, and it says he still has it.
I could do the same with many players. Hell, you could do that with Reimer who was pretty good until his neck injury/concussion.

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10-22-2012, 03:38 AM
  #344
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As a Leafs fan, i'll go with none of the above. If that's the return Vancouver is going to get, i'll happily pass.
This.

I really don't feel inclined to give up any of Gardiner, Kadri, Kulemin, Grabovski or our 1st for Luongo. And I'm a guy who believes Luongo will help our team immensely! It just doesn't make sense from a Leafs standpoint. Luongo really only has a few possible suitors leaguewide. You can trade him inter-conference to bitter rivals the Chicago Blackhawks or you can fulfill his wishes and send him back to Florida. Problem is, Florida doesn't need and/or want Luongo. Do you really think Gillis is going to be able to get full value for a goalie that:
1.) His team has literally expressed to the hockey world that he no longer needs showing confidence with the Schneider/Lack tandem going forward
2.) Has an intensely long and stupid contract that is only suitable on a chosen few NHL teams?

I think a Clarke MacArthur + Jesse Blacker for Luongo trade is fair. MacArthur will add depth and a little bit of grit to your top 9, is good for ~20G-40pts+ per season, is entering his prime at age 27 and is signed to a reasonable one year contract at 3.25M. Blacker is the Leafs 2nd round pick from 2009, put up great numbers in the OHL for Owen Sound and has been performing well for the Marlies as he translates his style to the professional game. HockeysFuture ranks him as our 2nd best defense prospect behind only Morgan Rielly, and he projects as a top 4 defenseman in the foreseeable future.

So the Canucks get a serviceable top 9 forward in his prime in MacArthur in addition to a great defense prospect with top 4 upside. Most importantly, you are able to finally turn the page on the Luongo era, look forward with Schneider at the helm and get that terrible lengthy contract of your hands!

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10-22-2012, 03:53 AM
  #345
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This.

I really don't feel inclined to give up any of Gardiner, Kadri, Kulemin, Grabovski or our 1st for Luongo. And I'm a guy who believes Luongo will help our team immensely! It just doesn't make sense from a Leafs standpoint. Luongo really only has a few possible suitors leaguewide. You can trade him inter-conference to bitter rivals the Chicago Blackhawks or you can fulfill his wishes and send him back to Florida. Problem is, Florida doesn't need and/or want Luongo. Do you really think Gillis is going to be able to get full value for a goalie that:
1.) His team has literally expressed to the hockey world that he no longer needs showing confidence with the Schneider/Lack tandem going forward
2.) Has an intensely long and stupid contract that is only suitable on a chosen few NHL teams?

I think a Clarke MacArthur + Jesse Blacker for Luongo trade is fair. MacArthur will add depth and a little bit of grit to your top 9, is good for ~20G-40pts+ per season, is entering his prime at age 27 and is signed to a reasonable one year contract at 3.25M. Blacker is the Leafs 2nd round pick from 2009, put up great numbers in the OHL for Owen Sound and has been performing well for the Marlies as he translates his style to the professional game. HockeysFuture ranks him as our 2nd best defense prospect behind only Morgan Rielly, and he projects as a top 4 defenseman in the foreseeable future.

So the Canucks get a serviceable top 9 forward in his prime in MacArthur in addition to a great defense prospect with top 4 upside. Most importantly, you are able to finally turn the page on the Luongo era, look forward with Schneider at the helm and get that terrible lengthy contract of your hands!
We won't take crap for Luongo.

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10-22-2012, 04:02 AM
  #346
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I haven't been following what Gillis has said but do you have link to an interview of something that is recent which he states that?

I know I read over the summer that Gillis himself stated that Canucks may not get a package that would help Canucks right away.
We're actually referring to the same quote.

"It has to give us an opportunity to be different," Gillis said. "I don't think you replace an all-star goalie and necessarily feel you have to be better -- but you have to be different."

We may very well take on a lesser asset but the key point is that we are taking back player(s) that make our roster "different".

Unless the package coming back includes Kessel or Phaneuf I'd argue that the Canucks are worse off...it's why I believe it'll ultimately be a package of young depth players (like Bozak/Frattin).

Trading Luongo for propects doesn't make our roster different, it just makes us worse.

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10-22-2012, 04:05 AM
  #347
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Asking if Luongo is a Franchise Goalie?

I can't believe how far people will go to belittle the guy.

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10-22-2012, 04:31 AM
  #348
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Not really that much of an improvement over:
Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Booth - Kesler - Raymond
Hansen - Higgins - Kassian
Malholtra - Lapierre - Weise

The difference is now you when you rest Schneider you will have Lack in net instead of Luongo, in a compressed 82 games season I bet that's worth about 5-10 wins (over 30 games) which is the difference between winning the division or being on the bubble.
Well, you have Raymond playing out of position on the right side where he has been significantly less effective, with a player he has shown little to no chemistry with in Kesler. You also have Higgins switching back to center, a position he hasn't played in years, yet you seem to assume he'll be able to transition there without trouble. Also, you have Hansen, a rare natural RH shot, switching to the left wing simply to accommodate Kassian moving into a role on the checking line, where he would be poorly situated anyways. These roster moves seem rather forced.

Lastly, are you really still prepared to continue making your assumptions based on the notion that there will be a compressed 82 game season?

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10-22-2012, 04:41 AM
  #349
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Originally Posted by LuckyLager View Post
These roster moves seem rather forced.

Lastly, are you really still prepared to continue making your assumptions based on the notion that there will be a compressed 82 game season?
Sedin - Sedin - Burrow
Higgins - Kesler - Booth
Raymond - Lappy - Hansen
Weise - Manny - Weise
Volpatti

Kassian (AHL)
Schroeder (AHL)

The Canucks have great depth regardless. Sure we could use a #3C or another top 9 winger but we don't have to deal Luongo for them.

Depth players are always traded for late picks every season.

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10-22-2012, 04:50 AM
  #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
Asking if Luongo is a Franchise Goalie?

I can't believe how far people will go to belittle the guy.
Oh no, I wasn't asking. I was telling, because he's not. IMO. How is saying he's above-average belittling him?

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