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*OFFICIAL* Kitchener Rangers 2012-13 Season Thread

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Old
10-13-2012, 02:35 PM
  #601
JSavoire
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Originally Posted by EvenSteven View Post
This is a mess!

No leadership!
No grit!
No heart!
No contribution from the last THREE 1st round picks!
No contribution from our three OA's!
This is worse than I thought!
If you're going to lose, at least make the other team pay a price!

Ottawa always plays us tough in Ottawa!
Oshawa may very well embarrass us in the home opener!

I'm gonna have to agree that this isn't the start I expected. Something has to give soon at least to show change of direction. as there are critical points up for grabs right now.

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10-15-2012, 08:34 AM
  #602
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While it is too early to panic, it would be foolish not to be at the least a little worried.

Maybe what they need is to be embarrassed on home ice and have their own fans boo in discontent for them to realize that what they are playing isnt tolerated in Kitchener.

I was critical of the Murphy selection of captain when he was named....so far he has shown nothing to prove me wrong (which is the hope).

8 gp, 0 Goals, 1 Assist, team worst -7 and a team worst 6 Minor penalties.....He is trying to do to much because he is paired with Hanes, and it isnt helping.

Hanes should be released, no questions asked. The guy shows flashes of being a good defender, just to turn around and make an outlet pass right to the tape of the opposition, or blow coverage. If he was a young kid you work through that. Unfortunately that isnt what you demand of an O/A. I'd much rather see Gilbert and Stewart make those mistakes but get time to develop into better players, then spend those minutes on a guy who wont be back next year and is expected to be a leader.

They shoot all their shots from the perimeter. Okay, I can handle that. Only problem is they do it without any traffic on even one body driving to the net. You have a guy at each face off dot more or less standing there, while someone shoots from 40 feet away...yup, thats the key to success right there. The goalie directs the puck into the corner, and the wingers are caught flat footed, beat to the puck and its a 3-2 the other way.

I'm sure the 8 game road trip is wearing on them, but you have to give an honest effort every night. I have seen one game this season in which they all gave an honest effort and that was a nail bitter win over London, in which they were dominated all 3rd period long.

Time to shape up or ship out! Every single one of those guys needs to step it up a couple notches.

Further to my point, the Rangers have 17 goals through 8 games. The london Knights had 16 goals through their first two....

The top teams in the OHL are sitting at or above 30 goals.

If you don't think scoring is a problem im not sure what to say....


Last edited by ORYX: 10-15-2012 at 09:22 AM.
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Old
10-15-2012, 11:08 AM
  #603
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While it is too early to panic, it would be foolish not to be at the least a little worried.

Maybe what they need is to be embarrassed on home ice and have their own fans boo in discontent for them to realize that what they are playing isnt tolerated in Kitchener.

I was critical of the Murphy selection of captain when he was named....so far he has shown nothing to prove me wrong (which is the hope).

8 gp, 0 Goals, 1 Assist, team worst -7 and a team worst 6 Minor penalties.....He is trying to do to much because he is paired with Hanes, and it isnt helping.

Hanes should be released, no questions asked. The guy shows flashes of being a good defender, just to turn around and make an outlet pass right to the tape of the opposition, or blow coverage. If he was a young kid you work through that. Unfortunately that isnt what you demand of an O/A. I'd much rather see Gilbert and Stewart make those mistakes but get time to develop into better players, then spend those minutes on a guy who wont be back next year and is expected to be a leader.

They shoot all their shots from the perimeter. Okay, I can handle that. Only problem is they do it without any traffic on even one body driving to the net. You have a guy at each face off dot more or less standing there, while someone shoots from 40 feet away...yup, thats the key to success right there. The goalie directs the puck into the corner, and the wingers are caught flat footed, beat to the puck and its a 3-2 the other way.

I'm sure the 8 game road trip is wearing on them, but you have to give an honest effort every night. I have seen one game this season in which they all gave an honest effort and that was a nail bitter win over London, in which they were dominated all 3rd period long.

Time to shape up or ship out! Every single one of those guys needs to step it up a couple notches.

Further to my point, the Rangers have 17 goals through 8 games. The london Knights had 16 goals through their first two....

The top teams in the OHL are sitting at or above 30 goals.

If you don't think scoring is a problem im not sure what to say....
Hoping its the long road start and a displaced feeling too.

What I am starting to wonder is what quality did the OA bring last year that we are missing this year? It is leadership? On ice quality?

Hoping that coming home in front of a packed house will snap them out of this. Something has to change and quick if this is the "go for it" year.

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Old
10-15-2012, 01:51 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by ORYX View Post
While it is too early to panic, it would be foolish not to be at the least a little worried.

Maybe what they need is to be embarrassed on home ice and have their own fans boo in discontent for them to realize that what they are playing isnt tolerated in Kitchener.

I was critical of the Murphy selection of captain when he was named....so far he has shown nothing to prove me wrong (which is the hope).

8 gp, 0 Goals, 1 Assist, team worst -7 and a team worst 6 Minor penalties.....He is trying to do to much because he is paired with Hanes, and it isnt helping.

Hanes should be released, no questions asked. The guy shows flashes of being a good defender, just to turn around and make an outlet pass right to the tape of the opposition, or blow coverage. If he was a young kid you work through that. Unfortunately that isnt what you demand of an O/A. I'd much rather see Gilbert and Stewart make those mistakes but get time to develop into better players, then spend those minutes on a guy who wont be back next year and is expected to be a leader.

They shoot all their shots from the perimeter. Okay, I can handle that. Only problem is they do it without any traffic on even one body driving to the net. You have a guy at each face off dot more or less standing there, while someone shoots from 40 feet away...yup, thats the key to success right there. The goalie directs the puck into the corner, and the wingers are caught flat footed, beat to the puck and its a 3-2 the other way.

I'm sure the 8 game road trip is wearing on them, but you have to give an honest effort every night. I have seen one game this season in which they all gave an honest effort and that was a nail bitter win over London, in which they were dominated all 3rd period long.

Time to shape up or ship out! Every single one of those guys needs to step it up a couple notches.

Further to my point, the Rangers have 17 goals through 8 games. The london Knights had 16 goals through their first two....

The top teams in the OHL are sitting at or above 30 goals.

If you don't think scoring is a problem im not sure what to say....

Mostly true except the Bulls are well under 30 goals and are a very close 2nd in their Division, but I guess if you're a very defensive team you're gonna get wins by getting a lead and sitting back. I certainly don't see the Rangers playing that type of heavy defensive game...seems like they're choice of players in the last few drafts are not panning out. That's what's killing them offensively.

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10-15-2012, 02:12 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by JSavoire View Post
seems like they're choice of players in the last few drafts are not panning out. That's what's killing them offensively.
That and the fact that Spott has the tendency to give away high draft picks for marginal short term players. Couple that
with his reluctancy to reload by trading his tradeable assets for draft picks.

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10-15-2012, 03:18 PM
  #606
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That and the fact that Spott has the tendency to give away high draft picks for marginal short term players. Couple that
with his reluctancy to reload by trading his tradeable assets for draft picks.
Such as?

Looking over the past two years, the only high draft picks traded were to two 2nds for Puempel, whom you can't call marginal in the least. And a 3rd rounder for Iafrate.

Also a conditional 3rd to Soo for Ashton-Reese, which wont go anywhere unless he plays.

I think the problem is the opposite, he doesnt trade for a big name player when thats what the team needs. Can't give him too much credit with Puempel, Kitchener was the only team on his list!

Looking forward to seeing if he has the stones to make a big deal or not when talent players start to become available

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10-15-2012, 03:56 PM
  #607
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I know its still early but if this is the way the team plays, we are not just one player away from what we need. If the secondary scoring comes around we are just in need of that shutdown D. But if we don't turn it around, Spott is going to have to deal for another big name player as a secondary scorer.

It starting to get close to see if Spott can make that big trade. You start falling too far behind and the up hill battle gets tougher.

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Old
10-16-2012, 12:32 AM
  #608
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Originally Posted by ORYX View Post
While it is too early to panic, it would be foolish not to be at the least a little worried.

Maybe what they need is to be embarrassed on home ice and have their own fans boo in discontent for them to realize that what they are playing isnt tolerated in Kitchener.

I was critical of the Murphy selection of captain when he was named....so far he has shown nothing to prove me wrong (which is the hope).

8 gp, 0 Goals, 1 Assist, team worst -7 and a team worst 6 Minor penalties.....He is trying to do to much because he is paired with Hanes, and it isnt helping.

Hanes should be released, no questions asked. The guy shows flashes of being a good defender, just to turn around and make an outlet pass right to the tape of the opposition, or blow coverage. If he was a young kid you work through that. Unfortunately that isnt what you demand of an O/A. I'd much rather see Gilbert and Stewart make those mistakes but get time to develop into better players, then spend those minutes on a guy who wont be back next year and is expected to be a leader.

They shoot all their shots from the perimeter. Okay, I can handle that. Only problem is they do it without any traffic on even one body driving to the net. You have a guy at each face off dot more or less standing there, while someone shoots from 40 feet away...yup, thats the key to success right there. The goalie directs the puck into the corner, and the wingers are caught flat footed, beat to the puck and its a 3-2 the other way.

I'm sure the 8 game road trip is wearing on them, but you have to give an honest effort every night. I have seen one game this season in which they all gave an honest effort and that was a nail bitter win over London, in which they were dominated all 3rd period long.

Time to shape up or ship out! Every single one of those guys needs to step it up a couple notches.

Further to my point, the Rangers have 17 goals through 8 games. The london Knights had 16 goals through their first two....

The top teams in the OHL are sitting at or above 30 goals.

If you don't think scoring is a problem im not sure what to say....


I'm not a big fan of Murphy being captain either. His time would be better spent trying to minimize the giveaways and turnovers instead of trying to lead this team. Geezz it's his 4th year and he is still a guy you can't afford to put on the ice protecting a one goal lead. Unfortunately, there aren't many better options. Very possible he's cut from the WJC a third time.

You're right about Hanes but I wouldn't stop there. I'd get rid of Alberga and Czinder as well. Neither has contributed much of anything, especially Czinder. On championship contenders, your OA's have to be some of your better players. Maybe that is a big reason why we are playing like a borderline playoff team. Can you imagine the impact that mirror images of Cat, Sol and Randell would have on this team right now? You'd have grit, leadership, heart, physicallity and all the rest of the things that this group is lacking right now.

To be honest, Ming and Meighan would provide everything and more that these two OA forwards are bringing now. These guys have to go and some quality has to be brought in.

Too many people are using the 8 game "road trip" as a crutch. It's not like they have been away for a month. They've been in their own beds most of the time. Actually, I haven't looked it up, but I bet they are the only team in the league who haven't had to play 3 in 3 or even 3 in a week. Going into the 1st 8 games, they had a pretty favorable schedule.
- Only two games a week.
- Only one game against a division rival.
- Most games were against teams picked to finish among the bottom half of the league.


Maybe it's about time to question Spott the GM. He hasn't done such a bang up job in that regard. His trades have been OK for the most part. But I question his judgment of the team and his penchant for not buying or selling when he should.

A quick run down:

2008-09- Missed playoffs. Expected. Nuff said

2009-10- Lost Game 7 to Windsor in the 3rd round after being up 3-0. Noboby really cared that much since the next year was to be our year and we really didn't expect to win much more than a game in that series anyway. However, Spott was quoted in Prospect Hockey Magazine as saying that he should have been a buyer at that deadline because you never know when you are going to lose your players unexpectedly. (Skinner and Morin the following year). He said he learned a lesson not going for it when you should. Did he learn anything? See 2011-12 below!

2010-11- 1st round upset at the hands of 6th place Plymouth. Probably the sole reason for this was Spott's refusal to pull Maxwell in favor of Morrison earlier in the series. The consensus among NHL scouts I talked to who covered the series was that the Rangers win no problem if Morrison starts the games. Spott had too much invested in Maxwell to bench him because he was what we got from Windsor in return for Timmins, Unice and Shutron. Spott basically married himself to Maxwell and wouldn't admit the obvious until in was too late.

This was also the year that we didn't get Skinner and Morin back from the pros. Spott moaned and groaned about that but what did he do at the deadline? Stand pat. He should have either bought or sold. When London didn't get Kane and Gagner back in 2007-08, they sold and they are still reaping the benefits from those deals (Mason and AJ Perry) to this day. If Spott decides to sell that year, he'd have gotten a huge return for high end OA's Akeson and Tipoff, and graduating goalie Maxwell who still held some value at the time.

2011-12- Totally blew it by failing to buy at the deadline. This was the year the Rangers should have gone for it. The Rangers were then 8th ranked team in the country at the time and pretty much owned the #1 ranked Knights all year (lost one game in regulation I believe). They were beaten by the Knights in the 3rd round after playing and feeling the effects of playing two of the west's most physical teams (OS and PLY). We had nothing left and no depth to go against London. Had Spott won the bidding war for Austin Watson, maybe he's the OHL playoff MVP as a Ranger. He did it all and did it against the Rangers. Spott was left after the deadline trying to explain away losing the Watson sweepstakes by insisting that his deal was better. Who was he offering the Petes? The guys who cleared waivers this year? Good thing Puempel asked to be dealt to the Rangers only. Otherwise. the Hunters likely outbid Spott again. Had Spott bought at the deadline, we maybe have an easier road to the 3rd round and are not as banged up as we were.

2012-13- This should be a career defining season for Spott. He has been trumpetting that this will be a special year for the Rangers. He isn't talking of going deep into the playoffs - he's talking Memorial Cup. Today he's standing around with a dumb look on his face wondering WTF!! At worst, a championship contending team should be 5-3, preferrably 6-2, after a soft 8 games on the road, going into the home opener. Instead, we are where we are. We are lucky to have the points we do have. Every single point we have was earned by the goaltenders. Nobody else. We only dominated in one game (at Sarnia) but ran into a hot goalie. We still had to depend on Gibson to win in a shootout!

Spott has a lot of work to do. IMO, we need a genuine replacement for Cody Sol, a genuine replacement for Catenacci's leadership, heart and scoring, and a genuine replacement for the toughness and scoring that Randell brought. That gets us back to where we were last year + Puempel.

Spott says that nobody wants to deal quality players this early. Owen Sound picked up OA d-man Nathan Chiarletti and he has become a leader and big part of their team. Their fans are raving about him. Spott? He was picking up Alberga at the time and later Hanes. Windsor was busy making room for OAer Derek Schonmakers by sending Nick Czinder here.

How does it make sense for Spott to expect that OA castoffs, from teams destined to finish much lower in the standings than we were expected to, will make any kind of impact on a championship team?

The way things are looking now....

-With Spott already having his excuses ready (the lockout is leaving CHL teams in limbo).
-With Spott stating he likes to get his deals done early (but is stating nobody wants to deal right now)
- With Spott screaming and bawling about the high prices paid at the deadline (but refusing sell when he should in order to acquire the assets needed for years when you want to buy).

........ I'd be surprised if we make it as far as we did in the post season last year, never mind actually challenging for a Memorial cup.


Last edited by EvenSteven: 10-16-2012 at 01:20 AM.
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Old
10-16-2012, 08:22 AM
  #609
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Some very good points Even Stevens, which could end up being completely accurate.

I still think that while being a little worried is the norm, it seems going off the deep end to chalk up how this team will perform for the season when we havent even seen them play at home! And I'm not using that as a crutch, its only 8 games in!

That makes 60 remaining. They played their best game against a division rival, doesnt that say something? Had they played all their games against division rivals the record may still be the same, but I bet the hockey played wouldnt contain the same problems (perhaps scoring still a problem, but not effort).

While you have valid point in the essential weakness of the opponents for the most part on the road trip and how they should have been able to muster a much better record, I offer you the opposite perspective. These are teams the Rangers have NO rivalry with, they have been away from home for a while, i'm not condoning the effort level, but it isnt hard to see perhaps why interest has been waining the last 4 games.

And lets no over exagerate the current problems. Sure its an 8 game road trip, they havent been facing all these effort and leadership problems all 8 games, maybe only the last 4. They have had scoring problems throughout.

What Meighan and Ming dont bring that Czinder and Alberga do is size and grit. While they havent landed on the score board yet, both are known as gritty in your face players. They're having a tough adjustment to Kitchener. The Alberga and Czinder that we saw play in Kitchner during the preseason is much different then the ones we're seeing now.

The entire team was playing more physical in the preseason.

The road trip excuse, while I dont think its fair to attribute all to this, I also dont think its fair to not acknowledge that these kids havent played for their fans yet, and fan support is a big part of this organization. When they hear the roar of the home crowd after that big body check, or our boo's after the blatant give aways, they'll know they're home and they'll have an extra pep in their step. Just watch.

I think its overkill to just assume the season is at a loss after 8 games, thats rather foolish actually.


Last edited by ORYX: 10-16-2012 at 08:28 AM.
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Old
10-16-2012, 12:24 PM
  #610
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I agree Oryx, but EvenSteven brings up a few good points. The OA's are truly nothing special, although I do like Alberga on the PK and as a shutdown forward. Hanes and Czinder are a waste of space from what I've seen so far. If a player is going to be out there not producing, it should be the rookies who at least are learning along the way.

The one thing I really noticed in the Kingston and Ottawa games is the lack of a real playmaker. Every single player is going into the zone with the puck on his stick, not even looking for linemates, and sending a shot on net. While that's not a bad idea, there are also a lot of missed opportunities to score where a linemate is looking at a wide open net.

Right now the lines just aren't clicking - whether that's because everyone is gripping their sticks a little tight due to lack of scoring, or a more fundamental team construction issue, we'll have to wait and see.

I do think being on the road, away from their regular practice routines (let's not forget that they've been working out of Sportsworld in less than ideal conditions), their home dressing room and of course, the fans, has a big impact on the energy level.

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10-16-2012, 12:44 PM
  #611
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"waste of space" - nice to say about these young players

Anyways, how has Matia Marcantuoni been doing? Still all flash and dash? I have caught him in two games this season and he's underwhelmed me (as usual).

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10-16-2012, 02:31 PM
  #612
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Originally Posted by dean youngblood82 View Post
"waste of space" - nice to say about these young players

Anyways, how has Matia Marcantuoni been doing? Still all flash and dash? I have caught him in two games this season and he's underwhelmed me (as usual).
What term would you prefer I use for overage players who have provided no offense, next to no defense, despite an overabundance of ice time?

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10-17-2012, 07:29 PM
  #613
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"waste of space" - nice to say about these young players

Anyways, how has Matia Marcantuoni been doing? Still all flash and dash? I have caught him in two games this season and he's underwhelmed me (as usual).

I agree with CharlieGirl. Hanes was brought in to provide experience and be a steady, stay at home d-men to play beside Murphy the way Cody Sol did last year. Spott may have even said when he was acquired that he was looking for a #2 OA period. He didn't want Hanes to be just good enough to make the roster - the younger players are around to fill those positions. To date, Hanes has been a bust as the type of OA d-man Spott was hoping he would be.

Czinder was brought in to provide toughness, physicality, and some scoring since 15 goals last year for some players could possibly expand to 25-30 in an OA season on a championship contender. Czinder hasn't provided any toughness, any physicality and no scoring despite seeing time on the PP and on lines with quality line mates.


Marcantuoni has been all flash, all dash, and nothing else. He's had games where he has been stuck playing with Czinder and Pederson but games where he's seen time with the top players on the team. Still no production. Sooner or later, the "top forward available in the draft" as Spott referred to him after we drafted him, needs to live up to those expectations. Playing with sub par linemmates shouldn't be that much of a disadvantage when you are the high end player as MM is supposed to be. Last year, Radek Faksa made Lorentz and Ming much better than they really were. When MM was put with Czinder and Pederson for those 2 or 3 games, he should have been doing the same instead of becoming invisible.

Yves Bastien came into this league and was all flash and dash but zero finish. Ranger fans screamed and bawled when he went the other way in the Steve Downie trade - a trade we won hands down. Turns out, that's all he ever amounted to in this league - a set of wheels whose only real value was on the PK. I fear this may be all we ever get out of MM. Perhaps Spott could do as DeBoer did with Bastien and send MM the other way in a package for an all-star/WJC calibre forward.

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10-17-2012, 11:18 PM
  #614
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Matia Marcantuoni has so much speed, but his hockey IQ is low unfortunately. The kid is talented, but he needs to make better decision with the puck. I hope he can pick it up and do well this season, but hey its still very early. This team should not be in the bottom half of the league in offensive production, its unacceptable.

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10-18-2012, 10:35 AM
  #615
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The problem with Czinder is people think he is a player he is relatively not.

He is 6'5, 230. Okay, big body winger, we all assume he is a crash and banger right? Well we are relatively wrong. He lets up on checks or abandons them all together, he isnt a punisher. Typically for a big player that plays physically, you see a high number of penalty minutes, whether caused by being big, or truely being an agitator. With Czinder you dont get that. Last year he would have been 6th on Kitchener in penalty minutes, behind Thomson, Crescenzi, Genovese, Iafrate, Sol. All guys who play with a more physical presense, and in most cases are smaller player.

The guy had 3 points 2 years ago, and 30 last year, having only entered the league in the 3 point season.

If I had to guess, i'd think last year was more a fluke, or peak then what can be expected this season. At first I was excited too, but having watched him through preseason and the first 8 games, I'd rather him just be released and let one of the young kids play.

He hasnt brought anything to the team aside from his 2 years experience. As an O/A on a team that is supposed to compete, you had better bring more then that.

If I had my way Czinder and Hanes would be released, without even waiting for a better O/A to come along, and a message sent to Alberga to start giving a little more.

Rangers should have pony'd up for for Nathan Charilitti when they called about Alberga.

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10-18-2012, 11:13 AM
  #616
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Rangers should have pony'd up for for Nathan Charilitti when they called about Alberga.
The second I heard Chiarlitti was available I said that. I agree 100%. His price tag wasn't that high and he's exactly what they needed.

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10-19-2012, 08:05 AM
  #617
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Game Day!
Home Opener and I know Oshawa will be tough but I expect the boys to step up and bring it for being in front of the home fans.
Everyone who`s going, lets be loud and start of the 50th home opener right.

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10-19-2012, 02:14 PM
  #618
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It has now moved from "standing room only" to "sold out"... so it should be a zoo.

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10-19-2012, 11:17 PM
  #619
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It has now moved from "standing room only" to "sold out"... so it should be a zoo.

What a game! And against a strong opponent! Finally the home game and home win.

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10-19-2012, 11:19 PM
  #620
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One more thing I was wondering about and that is why do some coaches put out their rookies in the last minute of the game after sitting them all game long? Usually the crap starts then and there's no quality hockey if any being played at that time.

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10-20-2012, 06:55 PM
  #621
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Originally Posted by JSavoire View Post
One more thing I was wondering about and that is why do some coaches put out their rookies in the last minute of the game after sitting them all game long? Usually the crap starts then and there's no quality hockey if any being played at that time.

So that if crap starts, you don't have your top players on the ice. If they aren't on the ice, they aren't getting hurt or suspended.

I always wondered why the 4th line always comes out after a goals against, especially after a PP goal for or against. I thought, why put them out there and possibly have another one against quickly? But coaches do it so they can get the lines back in order as PP and PK units often have players from different lines playing together.

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10-20-2012, 09:20 PM
  #622
Faidh ar Rud Eigin
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Well Kitchener looks a lot better.

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10-22-2012, 08:51 AM
  #623
CharlieGirl
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Yep, the team we saw this weekend looked a lot different than the one we saw for the last couple of weeks.

On another note, did anyone miss the OA's last night? The kids made them look really bad. I do like Alberga, and I think he brings leadership and hard work despite not appearing on the scoresheet. Czinder is disappointing to watch, but maybe next weekend vs Plymouth he'll show something.

Justin Bailey is going to be a LOT of fun to watch. His first OHL goal was a beauty.

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10-22-2012, 09:00 AM
  #624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
Yep, the team we saw this weekend looked a lot different than the one we saw for the last couple of weeks.

On another note, did anyone miss the OA's last night? The kids made them look really bad. I do like Alberga, and I think he brings leadership and hard work despite not appearing on the scoresheet. Czinder is disappointing to watch, but maybe next weekend vs Plymouth he'll show something.

Justin Bailey is going to be a LOT of fun to watch. His first OHL goal was a beauty.
Sting fan here,You got a hard working player with a big heart in Alberga. No he isn't going to light up your scoresheet but always gave 110% in Sarnia. Czinder didn't look good in Sarnia Sat night either.

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10-22-2012, 09:33 AM
  #625
CharlieGirl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by massey View Post
Sting fan here,You got a hard working player with a big heart in Alberga. No he isn't going to light up your scoresheet but always gave 110% in Sarnia. Czinder didn't look good in Sarnia Sat night either.
Thanks -- I think that's why Czinder got to watch the game last night. It says a lot when a 16 year old kid is showing more spark, energy, smarts, and game play than an OA.

I think Alberga is probably putting too much pressure on himself to score. His defensive play is well worth it, despite not getting points.

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