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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part V: The "Back to square one" Edition

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10-21-2012, 11:34 PM
  #226
NYRFAN218
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Two seasons is death to the league. No way that happens.

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10-22-2012, 02:39 AM
  #227
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Easier for me to think in terms of replacement fans than replacement players. Replacement players would be an absolute joke. But for those thinking 'I'll never follow this sport again'--I don't think the NHL calculates those losses as irreplaceable--there will be others to buy tickets and merchandise. There's too much money involved for the league to fold and Bettman's obstinacy is calculated around his legacy of his expansion into non traditional hockey areas--there's too much at stake now for him to let those struggling teams fold. That's the main reason why the NHL doesn't talk about raising the cap floor--the struggling teams want to get by on a bare budget--even if it means their fans can expect to follow a non competitive team year after year. Revenue sharing here is a kind of version of socialism for the rich where the better off teams help the poorer teams pay for their bare bones budget. Found the remark that the PA does not even want to give nickel back amusing--just because the league has been increasing revenues every year ever since the last lockout and you're not going to find a union anywhere that is going to accept a cut under those kinds of circumstances.

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10-22-2012, 02:45 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Maineice11 View Post
THIS! I think bettman points to those leagues being at 50/50 but not at the fact that all contracts are being honored in those leagues
Both leagues have contracts that are only partially, or even completely, non-guaranteed. That makes a huge difference I'd say, as teams are a lot more flexible if they can simply release players they don't need anymore.

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10-22-2012, 04:53 AM
  #229
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The NBA contracts are guaranteed. The NBA has option years. The NHL CBA doesn't allow for option years. NBA contracts use the salary as the cap hit. The NHL uses the average as the cap hit.

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10-22-2012, 06:19 AM
  #230
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Penguins union representative Craig Adams said early last week that previous meetings between the NHLPA and NHL “were not wastes of time.”

“We addressed a lot of stuff — not little things but important other issues. There was agreement on a lot of that,” he said, declining to provide specifics. “It’s the big stuff that we haven’t settled on.”
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Labor experts said a path to the eventual agreement is now clear and that it should lead to meetings this week involving only the sides’ key negotiators — bargaining sessions away from the glare of TV cameras’ lights.
http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/...#axzz2A1ciEYSZ

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10-22-2012, 07:15 AM
  #231
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The NBA contracts are guaranteed. The NBA has option years. The NHL CBA doesn't allow for option years. NBA contracts use the salary as the cap hit. The NHL uses the average as the cap hit.
Yeah that's what I meant. The NHL is best for the players in that regard, but it also makes it harder for the teams to get under a lower cap in the future.

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10-22-2012, 07:44 AM
  #232
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This is a disaster. Donald Fehr is a negotiator. He probably never watched a game of hockey in his entire life. This is a legal beagle game of chicken for him. He has zero skin in the game. He is making millions off this so called negotiation and the longer this goes on he makes more and more. Anybody really believe Fehr is hanging around after this is all said and done? This is his retirement fight
And Bettman was some sort of hockey pundit when he took the job?

Everyone is overlooking and not willing to believe WHY the players hired Fehr.

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10-22-2012, 07:48 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Easier for me to think in terms of replacement fans than replacement players. Replacement players would be an absolute joke. But for those thinking 'I'll never follow this sport again'--I don't think the NHL calculates those losses as irreplaceable--there will be others to buy tickets and merchandise.
I disagree, eco. I think that what Bettman and the owners are blindly counting on is the die-hard fan that is the majority of all of NHL fans. One cannot just recreate a fan base like this from scratch. Fathers stop watching. Sons stop watching. Kids are not brough up watching the same things. My oldest daughter is going to be 9 in January. I have taken her to games. She knows the players and the game. She is a growing fan. If I stop watching, then so too does she. And hockey goes dead in my house.

Cancel a season, and the NHL risks just that. Cancel two seasons, and it is guaranteed that they get just that.

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10-22-2012, 08:31 AM
  #234
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And Bettman was some sort of hockey pundit when he took the job?

Everyone is overlooking and not willing to believe WHY the players hired Fehr.
The players hired Fehr to maximize their incomes.

Gary Bettman, whom I don't particularly like, has been running the NHL for nearly 20 years. The reference to his lack of hockey pedigree 20 yrs ago is completely irrelevant.

The way I see it is that Fehr was hired due to the NHLPA being completely direft (sp) of leadership and years of in fighting.

Today they have Fehr, who is not a hockey man, had never watched a game. It's a battle of lawyers. They called the last labor/CBA Armageddon. This is much worse. Fehr could care less about hockey.

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10-22-2012, 08:37 AM
  #235
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Today they have Fehr, who is not a hockey man, had never watched a game. It's a battle of lawyers. They called the last labor/CBA Armageddon. This is much worse. Fehr could care less about hockey.
You are absolutely right. Fehr cares about who he is representing, not what they represent. And frankly, he is exactly what the NHLPA needed. Bettman and the owners have bent the union over for years. And lots of that was for lack of union leadership. Well, now the NHLPA has brought in a hired gun. And believe me, he is THE LAST person that the owners want to see. Or had wanted to see. And then there were some, like Jacobs, who mistook him for Goodenow.

The players do not care of Fehr is a hockey fan. They want to know that he is not going to backstab them like Goodenow did. They want to know that he will keep them informed, unlike Goodenow. And they want to know that they have someone at the table, that is going to get them teh best possible. Just like the owners. For years, the NHLPA brought a knife to a gun fight. Fehr represents a 50 caliber.

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10-22-2012, 08:45 AM
  #236
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You are absolutely right. Fehr cares about who he is representing, not what they represent. And frankly, he is exactly what the NHLPA needed. Bettman and the owners have bent the union over for years. And lots of that was for lack of union leadership. Well, now the NHLPA has brought in a hired gun. And believe me, he is THE LAST person that the owners want to see. Or had wanted to see. And then there were some, like Jacobs, who mistook him for Goodenow.

The players do not care of Fehr is a hockey fan. They want to know that he is not going to backstab them like Goodenow did. They want to know that he will keep them informed, unlike Goodenow. And they want to know that they have someone at the table, that is going to get them teh best possible. Just like the owners. For years, the NHLPA brought a knife to a gun fight. Fehr represents a 50 caliber.
Yep. This is why I predict a two year shutdown. This isn't about hockey. This is about ego and principle. I am convinced Fehr is very good at his job but I also know the NHL will break him. That will take some time.

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10-22-2012, 09:09 AM
  #237
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Do memories expire after 5 years? We lost a full season with, and most likely because, of a weak union leadership. It was divided. Can we at least see where this goes before we declare a strong and united PA a disaster? In October?

We all agree that owners left to their own devices leads to out of control salaries. The owners forced the last CBA. The owners circumvented that CBA. For the health of the game, and the sake of logic, don't wee need a strong union that keeps the league in check.

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10-22-2012, 09:20 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Do memories expire after 5 years? We lost a full season with, and most likely because, of a weak union leadership. It was divided. Can we at least see where this goes before we declare a strong and united PA a disaster? In October?

We all agree that owners left to their own devices leads to out of control salaries. The owners forced the last CBA. The owners circumvented that CBA. For the health of the game, and the sake of logic, don't wee need a strong union that keeps the league in check.
Union members, more importantly their agents, figured out how to manipulate the last CBA.

Ever read Alan Walsh on twitter? The guy is a complete *******. It's clear what he is in it for. Money money money. None of these player reps give a crap about the game. They are lawyers hired to maximize profits for their clients.

A strong union is a nice idea but also means more greed and stupidity. NHL players are fun to watch play but they are also dumb and, for the most part, uneducated. Nearly all barely have high school level. They are so brain washed that they will dump 1.8billion dollars to make 200 million.

Roenick says he lost 8 million due to the last lockout. These guys are just dumb.

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10-22-2012, 09:23 AM
  #239
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Yep. This is why I predict a two year shutdown. This isn't about hockey. This is about ego and principle. I am convinced Fehr is very good at his job but I also know the NHL will break him. That will take some time.
Too much money to lose for both sides and the split is very small. The hang up is old contracts, how do we go from one CBA to the other. There are great articles breaking down the money over the life of every proposal, year by year, with different rates of growth.

This is just like every lockout, especially the NBA and NFL last year. Lots of grandstanding and then they break through. Most of the players and teams care more about playing than the last few dollars.

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10-22-2012, 09:33 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Too much money to lose for both sides and the split is very small. The hang up is old contracts, how do we go from one CBA to the other. There are great articles breaking down the money over the life of every proposal, year by year, with different rates of growth.

This is just like every lockout, especially the NBA and NFL last year. Lots of grandstanding and then they break through. Most of the players and teams care more about playing than the last few dollars.
I hope you are correct but predict your are wrong. The NHL is different. There's a reason Bettman made it a 7 team majority and there are more than 7 losing cash. Then we have the morons like Jacobs, who is making money, on Bettman's side. Couple all that with the stupidity that is the NHLPA. Disaster.

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10-22-2012, 09:36 AM
  #241
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Interesting spin here in an article that really number crunches the situation. If they cannot settle this soon and let the season go to smithereens over such differences --- well - then they do deserve what they get in the future...
Good read.

They ARE getting closer. And it does seem incorrect for Bettman to characterize the NHLPA's latest offer as a step back. It's a step back from what, the NHL's offer? No duh.

It's a step forward from the NHLPA's sticking point of 57%.

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10-22-2012, 09:48 AM
  #242
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Maybe they're having some secret meetings?

Quote:
Josh Yohe ‏@JoshYohe_Trib
If there is going to be an NHL season, one would think this week is bigger than most. Owners want 82 games or no season, or so it appears.

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10-22-2012, 10:05 AM
  #243
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This **** CAN be done on conference calls and emails, especially once you're close. Meeting in person (especially with large contingents) is primarily for the cameras.

I sincerely hope that's what's going on.

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10-22-2012, 10:27 AM
  #244
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I realize that lost games = lost revenue/salary

I just wonder if there's enough of a desire on the players part to salvage a full season. It seems to me that in an effort to send the message that they're no longer "pushovers" they're probably going to force a major cancellation before capitulating.

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10-22-2012, 10:31 AM
  #245
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Today please.

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10-22-2012, 10:48 AM
  #246
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I realize that lost games = lost revenue/salary

I just wonder if there's enough of a desire on the players part to salvage a full season. It seems to me that in an effort to send the message that they're no longer "pushovers" they're probably going to force a major cancellation before capitulating.
be pretty stupid on their part...don't want to give up 12% of your salary so lets give up 100% instead

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10-22-2012, 10:56 AM
  #247
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be pretty stupid on their part...don't want to give up 12% of your salary so lets give up 100% instead
Trust me... I agree. That doesn't mean they won't to prove a point. They're also setting precedent for upcoming CBA negotiations.

It's not as easy as 100% now for a 7% gain later.

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10-22-2012, 10:58 AM
  #248
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Talked to a Canes player who believes a CBA deal could be close. Says sides not that far apart. We'll see.
https://twitter.com/ice_chip/status/260408898220064770

Earlier tweet

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Usual group at RCI today: E Staal, J Staal, Jussi, Joni, Dwyer, Harrison, McBain, Ward.
https://twitter.com/ice_chip/status/260392743497519104

Eric Staal was in Toronto for the meeting last Thursday. From that group,he is the one guy who would know.

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10-22-2012, 11:03 AM
  #249
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In a message relayed Thursday in the bargaining room, the NHL reiterated to the NHLPA that it is willing to further discuss the "make whole" mechanism in a way in which might help more satisfy the players. This is where the real wiggle room exists. That is the key this week in finally getting the biggest breakthrough of all, finding a way to honor existing contracts, perhaps by finding a formula that dips both into the owners’ pockets as well as the players'. Is there a formula there that makes sense?

The other possibility, one which not just myself but many other observers have repeatedly pointed out, is "phase-in" formula, starting the players at a higher percentage than 50 percent of hockey-related revenue in order to soften the escrow blow up front and help protect existing contracts as much as possible.

My gut tells me the league might be willing to start at 52 percent (for the players) on a phase-in scenario, while the players, I would guess, could potentially live with 54 percent. Gee, what’s the middle number in between those two?
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...es-this-season

53.

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10-22-2012, 11:17 AM
  #250
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Dude, you ruined it!


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