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Old
10-17-2012, 07:06 PM
  #26
Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Another good example is the "booster" I see for pre-expansion players. That just pops up now and again and sometimes I see it not used like you're doing the other person favor..."and that's without the pre-expansion booster...you're welcome..." and I don't know what you're talking about or if you're being generous...I have a rough idea of what it means, but I've never seen it actually explained. In fairness, I never looked that hard.
I have not done the research, but the percentage system seems to favour players who played in larger leagues - much like the placement system favoured the players in smaller leagues. That boost is designed to equalize the system.

Having said that, I do not agree with using an arbitrary number. I do think an adjustment is fair, but we have no idea what that adjustment should be. Guesswork just pollutes the numbers.

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10-17-2012, 07:45 PM
  #27
Mike Farkas
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I see. But do you boost so far to equalize the playing field and then lose the adjustment that there's a greater level of competition in 2010 vs. 1930? I understand that 1940's Soviet era is infancy and maybe anything before the Elitserien formed in Sweden is formative years...but how does it work for the top leagues in North America? Is there a sliding scale for that? I should think not because it sounds like a near impossible task...so is it ignored? Or is there a date where hockey got good and the day before it was bad?

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10-17-2012, 08:44 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Or is there a date where hockey got good and the day before it was bad?
That's an open question. And a hard and fast date is certainly not clear to be had.

But hockey history books often pinpoint the establishment of the Stanley Cup as the earliest date in which to give serious attention to the players of the sport, all talk prior to that taken up with the origins and innovations of the sport more than the quality and competition of players and teams. This arbitrary cut-off point seems to have been largely followed by the HHOF, who have inducted amateurs of teams of the mid- to late-1890s (cup winners notably) but none before that.

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10-17-2012, 08:46 PM
  #29
Rob Scuderi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I see. But do you boost so far to equalize the playing field and then lose the adjustment that there's a greater level of competition in 2010 vs. 1930? I understand that 1940's Soviet era is infancy and maybe anything before the Elitserien formed in Sweden is formative years...but how does it work for the top leagues in North America? Is there a sliding scale for that? I should think not because it sounds like a near impossible task...so is it ignored? Or is there a date where hockey got good and the day before it was bad?
It depends on each person really. Some people don't think the talent pool was wide enough during the CAHL/ECAHA and Manitoba days 1880-1910 and downplay those players.

I think you can cut those years up more to find some other meaningful distinctions but I don't see how anyone could justify skepticism of North Americans from 1910 on. (One distinction would be the rise of the professional game in Pittsburgh)

The NHA isn't really any different from the NHL, with the only difference between the 10s and 20s being the split leagues (WCHL, PCHA) folded and the NHL was finally where all the talent became concentrated.

You'd have to ask someone more into tracing the talent pool why they believe a bright line can be cast between Russell Bowie and Frank Nighbor. I just helped put Weldy Young on a top pair in the MLD, so obviously I struggle with the distinction.

Also the European countries' levels are a little more nuanced than tracing league names. Sven Tumba for example did his damage when Sweden's top league was called Division 1. Tracing how European countries fared in international play against elite countries can be a better way of judging the ebbs and flows in their country. Czechoslovakia for example goes from being "good" to "bad" again after the majority of their national team become political prisoners so it gets messy.

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10-17-2012, 10:02 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post

Another good example is the "booster" I see for pre-expansion players. That just pops up now and again and sometimes I see it not used like you're doing the other person favor..."and that's without the pre-expansion booster...you're welcome..." and I don't know what you're talking about or if you're being generous...I have a rough idea of what it means, but I've never seen it actually explained. In fairness, I never looked that hard.
Points rankings definitely favor older players who played in a weaker talent pool and a smaller league with fewer players. But percentage rankings favor modern players who play in a larger league with more offensive opportunities. Generally speaking, I don't think there is a good stat to compare offensive production of post-expansion and pre-expansion players. So I more or less agree with Dreakmur - post both the rankings and percentages and use a combination of the two. There will be a level of uncertainty if two players are close, but that's history.

Seventieslord prefers to find a single formula for things so he uses percentages with a kind of "fudge factor" that he adds to pre-expansion players. There is no mathematical basis for his "10-15% boost," it just comes up with results that look better. It's not my preferred method and I see why newer GMs see "just add 10-15% to pre-expansion players because my experience says that gets results that make more sense" to be no better than "just add 10-15% to pre-expansion players because I said so."

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10-18-2012, 08:07 PM
  #31
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Considering the events that transpired today, you can count me in. I need to get my hockey fix somehow, and BU games on the weekends isn't enough. I'll be the current employer of Claude Giroux and Danny Briere, EHC Eisbären Berlin.


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10-18-2012, 08:52 PM
  #32
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10-18-2012, 08:57 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Once again, I don't want my own team, but I wouldn't mind riding shotgun with somebody
A TDMM & Dreakmur squad or Leafs Forever & Dreakmur just seems natural.

_______ & Dreakmur. Someone, step up!

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10-18-2012, 09:02 PM
  #34
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I entered the MLD with only half of my heart in it and it's not good for the draft when GMs are in that state of mind.

I'm gonna pass this time and wait for the ATD where I can hopefully give my 100%.

have fun

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10-18-2012, 09:29 PM
  #35
VanIslander
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10-18-2012, 09:50 PM
  #36
Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
A TDMM & Dreakmur squad or Leafs Forever & Dreakmur just seems natural.

_______ & Dreakmur. Someone, step up!
Somebody stepped up a while ago, and it's probably the most unnatural seeming team most would think of

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10-19-2012, 09:14 AM
  #37
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I see. But do you boost so far to equalize the playing field and then lose the adjustment that there's a greater level of competition in 2010 vs. 1930?
I personally wouldn't think so. the "boost" doesn't take the numbers in a pre-expansion season to the point where there are equal numbers of players meeting different score thresholds both before and after; it just makes it so that it's not so drastic (i.e. 20 players at 80+% versus 4) - there are not five times as many good players now as then; or, at least, none of us seem to believe that and if anyone does, they've done a bad job proving it.

it kinda goes back to that whole "talent pool expansion factor" we've alluded to before. I like the results to "look" correct considering what we know about the development of hockey.

I get what dreakmur is saying about polluting the numbers, but whatever the "true" fair adjustment is, I'm sure it's a lot closer to 10-15% than 0%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
A TDMM & Dreakmur squad or Leafs Forever & Dreakmur just seems natural.

_______ & Dreakmur. Someone, step up!
I have it on good authority that this is taken care of.

Bad News - my cousin BudsBuster was already leaning towards not joining due to time, and I had half-convinced him to stay because he can do the whole thing from work.... and then his workplace announced they're starting to monitor internet usage... I am sure that's the straw that broke his back. I think he's out but he still wants to do the main draft in a few months.

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Old
10-19-2012, 03:48 PM
  #38
BillyShoe1721
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
You made my day, man. You really did.
Glad I could brighten your day, I guess?

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Old
10-20-2012, 09:48 AM
  #39
VanIslander
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Yeah,... you guess.

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10-20-2012, 05:10 PM
  #40
Rob Scuderi
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I'll go as the Pittsburgh Professionals, Pittsburgh's lone representative in the IHL.



They actually had some decent star power in their three years of existence claiming Hod and Bruce Stuart, Tommy Smith, and Lorne Campbell as alumni.

Hod wasn't too fond of the quality of play however, writing in 1906 about why he had grown tired of the professional game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pittsburgh Press - Dec 18, 1906
"They don't know how to run hockey over here, the rink people appoint the most dumb and incompetent referees that could be found. ...This year they are all rotten and I am going to Wanderers if things go as they are now going. I can get more money here, but I want to play hockey, not shinny, such as the O.H.A. puts up. They get men to referee here who never saw hockey before coming into this league, and practice the O.H.A. brand every chance they get. I wil let the Wanderers know whether I am going or not this week. They could not offer me money enough here to go through what I went through last year in this league. Everybody had a slur at me and I could not lift my stick off the ice. That is a fact. I never took my stick off the ice, except in shotting, all winter, and never checked a man with the stick."
(Signed.) "H.A. Stuart"

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10-20-2012, 08:15 PM
  #41
VanIslander
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10-20-2012, 08:57 PM
  #42
seventieslord
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Start date is Friday at noon.

I am pleased to announce that for this AAA draft I am signing up with Dreakmur.

Tarheel was joining in principle, but that was before he walked away from his finals series, so I don't know.

Also, that mystery 0-post newbie is still possibly an option, if we need him to get to an even number of teams.

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10-20-2012, 09:05 PM
  #43
VanIslander
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jkrx is also considering joining but is looking for a co-GM (maybe his grandson could help him)

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10-21-2012, 03:17 PM
  #44
jkrx
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I will join the draft but I need Hobnobs or a another co-GM in case people are still upset by his behaviour in the MLD because of my current health issues. There is no possible way for me to do this alone.

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10-22-2012, 10:20 AM
  #45
seventieslord
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I will join the draft but I need Hobnobs or a another co-GM in case people are still upset by his behaviour in the MLD because of my current health issues. There is no possible way for me to do this alone.
Hobnobs is welcome back anytime... the question is not whether others will tolerate him, but whether he will tolerate me, apparently!

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10-22-2012, 10:34 AM
  #46
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Hobnobs is welcome back anytime... the question is not whether others will tolerate him, but whether he will tolerate me, apparently!
He has a short fuse and apparently you push his buttons but not to worry, he is quick to anger but also quick to forget. He might not even be that involved aslong as I can stay out of the hospital I'm in full control.

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10-22-2012, 10:37 AM
  #47
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I'll take control of the Sheffield Steelers


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Old
10-22-2012, 04:05 PM
  #48
tarheelhockey
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If anyone else wants to join I will jump in to keep the number of GMs even for the sake of a proper playoff bracket. Otherwise I'll sit this one out.

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10-22-2012, 04:15 PM
  #49
seventieslord
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If anyone else wants to join I will jump in to keep the number of GMs even for the sake of a proper playoff bracket. Otherwise I'll sit this one out.
actually, it looks like we have 9 without you right now!

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10-22-2012, 06:34 PM
  #50
tarheelhockey
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actually, it looks like we have 9 without you right now!
You're right... didn't see myself in the middle of the list

So, I'll stay on unless someone else wants to take the spot and even things up.

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