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Ron Hainsey and the letdown years.

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Old
10-21-2012, 06:30 PM
  #26
DAChampion
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I'd say not really... he had some moments there, mostly I only saw the playoff run, though. Still sort of looked like a 4th liner on a good string, but that's nothing like Skrudland nor what I wanted/expected from Chipchura either. He flashed bits of that for us, and for Anaheim when he first went there, but still hasn't been able to step up from that consistently. I'm totally with Mr. Hab on the choice though, Chipchura has probably been my favourite prospect of the past decade, and in the running with Terry Ryan for favourite, ever.
Would Chipchura be preferable to Petteri Nokelainen as 4th line center?

Inferior on faceoffs, but fights, is an inch taller and 10 lbs heavier, and has a superior scoring touch.

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10-21-2012, 10:14 PM
  #27
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Would Chipchura be preferable to Petteri Nokelainen as 4th line center?

Inferior on faceoffs, but fights, is an inch taller and 10 lbs heavier, and has a superior scoring touch.
Well, I don't think he's really ''inferior'' in faceoffs.
Keep in mind Noke was an overrated prospect once, just like Chippy..

My choices are Maxwell, Lapierre, Locke, Carle, Valentenko, Trunev and Perezhogin..

Also, I was reaaallly high on Grabovski and D'agostini.

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10-22-2012, 12:40 AM
  #28
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i dont know why, and i might be the only one, but i had high hopes for marcel hossa....

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10-22-2012, 01:51 AM
  #29
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I was excited about the drafting of Duncan Milroy.

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10-22-2012, 04:41 AM
  #30
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Makes me wonder which prospect we rank between 10 and 20 will be better than Beaulieu or Tinordi. And which guy 4th to 8th will end up being the #1. (minus Galchenyuk)

I can see Kristo being the Plekanec type. Ranked mid-level in all the top 10's but ends up being the one who we get the most out of in the end

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10-22-2012, 05:01 AM
  #31
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I was really a fan of Perezhogin, and still think we misused him. And he's been a good player in the KHL.

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10-22-2012, 08:26 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Would Chipchura be preferable to Petteri Nokelainen as 4th line center?

Inferior on faceoffs, but fights, is an inch taller and 10 lbs heavier, and has a superior scoring touch.
I'd rather have Chipchura. But trying to set my favouritism aside, I guess they have accomplished about the same amount, and are probably roughly equivalent players. Letting my favouritism back into the picture, I still keep thinking/hoping that Chipchura will bring some added playmaking/cycling/vision into the pros and would suddenly emerge as a better player. But it keeps never quite happening, soooo. Nokelainen is faster and also somewhat chippy and physical.

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10-22-2012, 09:21 AM
  #33
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Keep in mind for Chipchura that if the Habs kept him as the 4th line center you`d have to suffer from the long stretch of AHL level play he went through in Anahiem. Anaheim is neck and neck with the Islanders for worst depth forwards in the league and they gave up on him.

Turning into a decent 4th C under arguably the best coach in the league in Phoenix really isn`t anything worth lamenting about.

4C is also such a low impact position that having a notably subpar one like Nokelainen really isn`t a significant factor in winning or losing hockey games.

Perezhogin was a loss though. I think he`s pretty comparable to A. Kostitsyn in impact and there have been a number of occasions where the team really could have used another middle six winger. Its also unfortunate that he couldn`t accept that third line role because that was one heck of a low cost two-way third line with him on it.

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10-22-2012, 12:01 PM
  #34
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I was pretty sure Higgins and Chipchura would have became real solid NHLers.

Perezhogin could have been a decent third liner, but he's not good enough offensively to play a top-6 role at the NHL level. He made the right decision when he chose the KHL, since he would probably have been a marginal player in the NHL.

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10-22-2012, 12:17 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Keep in mind for Chipchura that if the Habs kept him as the 4th line center you`d have to suffer from the long stretch of AHL level play he went through in Anahiem. Anaheim is neck and neck with the Islanders for worst depth forwards in the league and they gave up on him.

Turning into a decent 4th C under arguably the best coach in the league in Phoenix really isn`t anything worth lamenting about.

4C is also such a low impact position that having a notably subpar one like Nokelainen really isn`t a significant factor in winning or losing hockey games.

Perezhogin was a loss though. I think he`s pretty comparable to A. Kostitsyn in impact and there have been a number of occasions where the team really could have used another middle six winger. Its also unfortunate that he couldn`t accept that third line role because that was one heck of a low cost two-way third line with him on it.
Wrong. Depth win's championship. Why do you think we we're so bad ? No depth.

Look at Vancouver when they got in the finals.. Or Boston..
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
I was pretty sure Higgins and Chipchura would have became real solid NHLers.

Perezhogin could have been a decent third liner, but he's not good enough offensively to play a top-6 role at the NHL level. He made the right decision when he chose the KHL, since he would probably have been a marginal player in the NHL.
Well Higgins is pretty much solid.

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10-22-2012, 02:27 PM
  #36
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Wrong. Depth win's championship. Why do you think we we're so bad ? No depth.

Look at Vancouver when they got in the finals.. Or Boston..

Well Higgins is pretty much solid.
They were bad in the 2nd half because of forwards 5-9 and defensemen 3-7. Who played on the 4th line meant nothing for how good the Canadiens were. The actually were very deep at forward to start last season, one of the conference`s best two-way top nine groups at ES. That`s why they were a very good even strength team for the first 30 games even without a 2nd pair defense.

Now if you are talented enough to have an exceptional 4th line like Boston or Chicago did in their cup wins, that can matter. But that`s being so deep your 4th line is made up of guys who would make 3rd line on most teams, not the difference between guys that are 4th liners pretty much everywhere.

Or for the Canadiens, when they were deep enough that a solid line like Pouliot-Desharanis-Darche was the 4th line, that helped. But that was a 4th line good enough to pass as a 3rd line. Chipchura couldn`t make that unit. Chipchura isn`t a 4th liner that makes that kind of difference. The difference between him and Nokelainen is pretty much irrelevant.

The gap in talent between fourth liners needs to be pretty large before it starts resonanting because its the lowest impact position on the roster, playing the fewest and least important minutes. The marginal differences between guys that are barely above the AHL tends not to make much difference.

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10-22-2012, 04:38 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
They were bad in the 2nd half because of forwards 5-9 and defensemen 3-7. Who played on the 4th line meant nothing for how good the Canadiens were. The actually were very deep at forward to start last season, one of the conference`s best two-way top nine groups at ES. That`s why they were a very good even strength team for the first 30 games even without a 2nd pair defense.

Now if you are talented enough to have an exceptional 4th line like Boston or Chicago did in their cup wins, that can matter. But that`s being so deep your 4th line is made up of guys who would make 3rd line on most teams, not the difference between guys that are 4th liners pretty much everywhere.

Or for the Canadiens, when they were deep enough that a solid line like Pouliot-Desharanis-Darche was the 4th line, that helped. But that was a 4th line good enough to pass as a 3rd line. Chipchura couldn`t make that unit. Chipchura isn`t a 4th liner that makes that kind of difference. The difference between him and Nokelainen is pretty much irrelevant.

The gap in talent between fourth liners needs to be pretty large before it starts resonanting because its the lowest impact position on the roster, playing the fewest and least important minutes. The marginal differences between guys that are barely above the AHL tends not to make much difference.
The 4th line is one of the line for shutdown on many teams... It's not only worthless scrubs...Or it's situational players.. IE Noke for faceoffs, Weber for PP etc...

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10-22-2012, 04:39 PM
  #38
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Wrong. Depth win's championship. Why do you think we we're so bad ? No depth.

Look at Vancouver when they got in the finals.. Or Boston..
Boston primarily made the finals because of Zdeno Chara an d Tim Thomas.

The depth thing is just media. If you have a game where Patrice Bergeron scores 2 goals an Chris Kelley scores 1, the media will talk about Chris Kelley's goal and the importance of depth.

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10-22-2012, 04:43 PM
  #39
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Hainsey turned out alright making 5M year with Atlanta.

LOL @ the old CBA forcing ****** teams to spend to the cap floor.

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10-22-2012, 05:13 PM
  #40
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The 4th line is one of the line for shutdown on many teams... It's not only worthless scrubs...Or it's situational players.. IE Noke for faceoffs, Weber for PP etc...
Name 5 teams with a shutdown 4th line. That`s not something that really exists. Some take a bunch of defensive zone draws but not against good opposition. That`s a time killing line not a shutdown one. Which goes to what the modern 4th line is about, killing time until the good players are ready for their next shift. If a unit is playing real shutdown time and are main penalty killers, they aren`t 4th line any more, they`re probably a 3rd.

Pretty much the only teams that does what you say with a 4th line last year was Winnipeg and Philadelphia. Most modern teams just can`t regularly put together the depth to have players you wan`t playing important minutes on a 4th line.

Most of these guys can play hockey and are typically pretty good against AHL level talent but compared to top nine players they have a very low impact on the outcome of the game, not only do they play low minutes, but these are also generally low event minutes also.

Some of these guys are specialist and that have value. Your doing pretty well if you`ve got a good couple of penalty killers there.

And describing Nokelainan as a faceoff specialist is giving him to much credit, he`s never out there for an important draw.

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10-22-2012, 06:03 PM
  #41
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@ people talking about Chipchura, the habs organization thought he was gonna be a bigger Plekanec and thought way to highly of him.

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10-22-2012, 06:06 PM
  #42
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i dont know why, and i might be the only one, but i had high hopes for marcel hossa....
your not the only one....in like his first 5-7 games or something i remember he had like 3 goals and a couple of assists, but nothing then happened. Although he was pretty good in Hamilton.

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Old
10-22-2012, 11:53 PM
  #43
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Name 5 teams with a shutdown 4th line. That`s not something that really exists. Some take a bunch of defensive zone draws but not against good opposition. That`s a time killing line not a shutdown one. Which goes to what the modern 4th line is about, killing time until the good players are ready for their next shift. If a unit is playing real shutdown time and are main penalty killers, they aren`t 4th line any more, they`re probably a 3rd.

Pretty much the only teams that does what you say with a 4th line last year was Winnipeg and Philadelphia. Most modern teams just can`t regularly put together the depth to have players you wan`t playing important minutes on a 4th line.

Most of these guys can play hockey and are typically pretty good against AHL level talent but compared to top nine players they have a very low impact on the outcome of the game, not only do they play low minutes, but these are also generally low event minutes also.

Some of these guys are specialist and that have value. Your doing pretty well if you`ve got a good couple of penalty killers there.

And describing Nokelainan as a faceoff specialist is giving him to much credit, he`s never out there for an important draw.
Vancouver, Philly, Winnipeg, Chicago(2010), boston, NYR................ WHAT NOW?

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10-23-2012, 12:42 AM
  #44
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Vancouver, Philly, Winnipeg, Chicago(2010), boston, NYR................ WHAT NOW?
Vancouver relied on Malhotra`s and Kesler`s lines to be the real shutdown lines, the 4th one just takes defensive zone draws, against weak opponents, another time wasting line not a shutdown unit. Pahlsson`s line played more defensively but that was just a matter what they could do after loading up at the deadline, not the normal state of affairs in VAN. NYR when using Prust (typically 4th liner) with Boyle as a shutdown player used it more as a 3rd line in ice time terms.

Boston`s 4th is never a shutdown unit, Boston plays power versus power for their lines. It gets deployed largely against other depth lines but usually manages to beat them. Which is good, but a pretty limited role.

You should note that I said for a given season there aren`t going to be many 4th lines used like you say. That you have to bring up Chicago that couldn`t sustain the depth to have a shutdown 4th unit just goes to my point, its hard to keep good players just for a 4th line. Likewise Philly is going to see Couturier move up the depth chart and then no more shutdown 4th line. High quality 4th liners tend to either move up the depth chart, leave to play a bigger role on another team or go to Europe to play a bigger role.

In any event, the presence of the occasional strong 4th line the NHL does nothing to change that the impact of difference in middling units in impact on the game is relatively slight. And even the good 4th lines tend to be fairly irrelevant, the real action is higher up in the lineup in the regular minutes lines.

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10-23-2012, 08:40 AM
  #45
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@ people talking about Chipchura, the habs organization thought he was gonna be a bigger Plekanec and thought way to highly of him.
"A bigger Plekanec" sounds kind of weird. We were talking Trevor Linden and somebody else, I forget who the other of the two popular comparables was... then after the achilles injury and the pro debuts, I think the ramping down to the Skrudland level was reasonable. But Skrudland was still a very elite checking player with a big leadership role and fringe Selke candidate, so that's still a lofty niche and would have been well worth the pick. I believed in that one right up until Chipchura was traded. His playoff run in I think it was 2007 really got my hopes up.

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