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2012 CBA & Re-alignment: Lockout in Effect. Thanks Gary/Donald! PART II

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10-21-2012, 07:32 PM
  #451
Jacob
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Originally Posted by WickedWrister View Post
Labor negotiations seem to bring out the worst in people. This message board is no exception.
I tend to avoid these sorts of discussions for that reason, and also because I know little about economics/numbers/legalities and intend to keep it that way. I use hockey as an escape from that kind of minutiae. I hate when they cross paths.

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10-21-2012, 07:32 PM
  #452
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I don't think anyone is against the players getting their contracts paid in full from the last CBA. A deal is a deal, but they (both sides) are making it a lot harder than it needs to be.


The League has made the best step forward, and the NHLPA needs to step up to the plate and make a real effort to move forward now. They haven't yet.

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10-21-2012, 07:35 PM
  #453
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Lol, no I don't think I can honestly remember a time where we've disagreed and got into a back and forth situation. In fact I agree with your hockey knowledge, and opinions on prospects.

All I'm trying to say man is that you really could do well to cut down on the personal side jabs and stuff. It really doesn't help your arguing position.

Nobody here is butt hurt, trust me. Just making a point. Carry on.
TTEOT and I have had hundreds of long drawn out debates over the last ten years and the only real insult I threw at him had to do with him trying to go Buffalo Bob in his basement.

Keep in mind in the few yrs you have been here, I've seen you take a number of jabs at ppl in arguments as well when you get frustrated with another poster. Some of your debates I've found intelligent and well thought out. Others I've found kind of asinine, but didn't feel the need to tell you about it. I simply skimmed over your debates when that happens.

It's a small matter. Just how I roll.

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10-21-2012, 07:41 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
TTEOT and I have had hundreds of long drawn out debates over the last ten years and the only real insult I threw at him had to do with him trying to go Buffalo Bob in his basement.

Keep in mind in the few yrs you have been here, I've seen you take a number of jabs at ppl in arguments as well when you get frustrated with another poster. Some of your debates I've found intelligent and well thought out. Others I've found kind of asinine, but didn't feel the need to tell you about it. I simply skimmed over your debates when that happens.

It's a small matter. Just how I roll.
That's probably a fair assessment of me in my earlier posting days. I've grown a bit since then though. If somebody annoys me enough and I think they are just an all around idiot, I just put them on ignore.

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10-22-2012, 01:36 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by IanMoranFanclub View Post
If it was so complicated, maybe Fehr should have, I don't know, written something down or possibly done the math.

Well that's sure as hell not what the media was reporting. The words "50/50 split" and "immediately" were used in every article I read.
The PA staff did do the math. There's no story there.

Whatever reports you read calling Proposal 3 anything other than what I described are false. So the issue is on their end.

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10-22-2012, 10:24 PM
  #456
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Players feel every penny signed for is their due. But is it? It is an agreement signed under the terms of an expired cba. Really its only guaranteed until the cba is over. There is a good faith element. But. What is the logical argument that if a cba is bad for business expires that those contracts must be 100% honored. I get the moral argument. But the players along with the owners must compromise. Of course one can argue the players are giving up the most. But that's also part of the last deal being player biased.

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10-23-2012, 07:52 AM
  #457
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Besides, those three offer were done to create fear and confusion with the owners. A meticulous man like Fehr doesn't "forget to check" his numbers.
So, what you're saying is, Fehr straight out lied?

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10-23-2012, 08:17 AM
  #458
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So, what you're saying is, Fehr straight out lied?
I thought he did it as a ploy to piss off Bettman, but after reading James Mirtle's explanation on the business forum, I'm going to say that no, Fehr didn't lie.

I thought there was something more sinister there given Fehr's rep, but I guess not.

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10-23-2012, 10:00 AM
  #459
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of course i bring the economic realities into this. you were the one that said you cannot support the owners because of your "morals" and "ethics" because as you explained, the players were unfairly treated in the last cba and would continue to receive a raw deal with this latest offering by bettman and co.

and it has been my point that the vast majority of fans do not care about the "fairness" of the cba, particularly in light of the financial struggles faced by the average worker. with regards to the players and owners, i do not care which side screws the other side. you are the one that brought your morals and ethics into this debate, to which i say (as do most fans), we dont care.

i'm not sure what your point is about this money not going to the poor. i never suggested anything remotely about that, just that your pity party for the players won't resonate with many folks.

if your best argument in favor of the nhlpa is that they got screwed last time and that bettman is an evil liar, then you will not be bringing many folks to your side. life isnt fair.



i genuinely dont know if you are purposely are being obstinate or misread what i said. i said that the PR battle is of "some importance" and "would not make or break a deal." at not point did i explicitly say or even remotely imply that the previous lockout ended due to public pressure or that this lockout would end due to the fans.

tell me, if the players weren't trying to garner sympathy, what then was the point of this video? its quite apparent to me.

Good post, that's pretty much how I see it. I'm so sick of the players acting like they have trouble to feed their familiy. Obvisouly it can't be that bad because they rather earn nothing at all then a couple % less. And yes, life is unfair, deal with it, you won't be playing until you accept that fact.

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10-23-2012, 10:11 AM
  #460
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I thought he did it as a ploy to piss off Bettman, but after reading James Mirtle's explanation on the business forum, I'm going to say that no, Fehr didn't lie.

I thought there was something more sinister there given Fehr's rep, but I guess not.
So he didn't run the numbers? Don Fehr offered a proposal without knowing what it is? Come on now.

I guess when Bettman does it, it's a lie. When Fehr does it, it's a negotiation tactic.

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10-23-2012, 11:37 AM
  #461
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So he didn't run the numbers? Don Fehr offered a proposal without knowing what it is? Come on now.

I guess when Bettman does it, it's a lie. When Fehr does it, it's a negotiation tactic.
As I clearly pointed out, just during the lockout, Bettman has already outright lied three times. It isn't a guess or an accusation. There is concrete evidence he lied. It is as clear cut as it gets. He has been speaking out of both sides of his mouth for years. Are you and others really that naive about his past? This goes well beyond "lying for the sake of negotiations".

From the BS he gave the public over the Spano incident (one of the biggest blunders a commissioner in any league ever committed... the man was outright made a fool of) to not being a man of his word and allowing convicted ******* Del Biaggio (falsifying documents to get the loan) to buy into the Preds (vastly improved background checks my ass). The man simply lies through his teeth and refuses to accept accountability when he makes mistakes (sup Phoenix, ESPN negotiations and all of the above).

So as I originally said, anything coming out of his mouth at the podium, in the media, etc isn't something I put much stock in.

Does Fehr lie to gain an advantage in negotiations? Most likely, but we still have no concrete evidence he has lied to us yet. If you have any, feel free to throw it out there.

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10-23-2012, 04:46 PM
  #462
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Are there meetings this week??

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Old
10-23-2012, 06:39 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by HuskerTornado View Post
Are there meetings this week??
Nothing scheduled as of yet.
PA had a conference call today at 5pmET and the PA and the league have spoken today(over the phone i'd imagine).

Next 36 hours should tell the tale, atleast if they are actually getting anywhere or not.

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10-23-2012, 07:22 PM
  #464
Wes C Addle
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Anybody hear about this 48 hour period where owners and front office members could talk to players, but the NHL failed to alert the PA about it?

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...3886--nhl.html

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl--an...-nhl-memo.html

Anything to make of this?


Last edited by Wes C Addle: 10-23-2012 at 07:34 PM.
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Old
10-23-2012, 07:42 PM
  #465
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If you look at Insider trading on TSN the NHL seemes to be willing to meet the players as far as the first year money is concerned.

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Old
10-26-2012, 03:32 PM
  #466
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If the NHL has to cancel the Winter Classic the players definitely aren't going to be happy with anything they get offered at that point. Now would have been the best time to get the NHL to budge on their proposal a bit, not after they take a bunch of loss's and have less to lose. And definitely not after you're a wallet is a whole lot lighter and you're a lot more desperate for work. I'm completely dumbfounded.

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10-26-2012, 05:16 PM
  #467
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I don't think Donal Fehr gets it. This isn't baseball. Bettman isn't going to fold like a deck of cards like Selig did. If he's got to cancel a season or more he will and when that happens it will be the players that start flinching. I think his ego is telling him he's in a battle he can win when realistically he isn't.

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10-26-2012, 05:32 PM
  #468
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
I don't think Donal Fehr gets it. This isn't baseball. Bettman isn't going to fold like a deck of cards like Selig did. If he's got to cancel a season or more he will and when that happens it will be the players that start flinching. I think his ego is telling him he's in a battle he can win when realistically he isn't.
This this this a million times this.

Fehr isn't going to win. The only way he could have hoped to win was if the owners folded early...and they backed off a lot of their stuff quickly, but Fehr was more interested in playing the showman than getting what needed to get done, so he's ****ed the NHLPA over. At this point I'm just expecting everything to go nuclear until April and the owners are only going to take more and more things off the table. The owners have all the chips and they're far better equipped to be in this for a longer period of time. The players want revenge for 2005...but they don't have good enough cards to pull this ****. Not now.

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10-26-2012, 06:42 PM
  #469
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This this this a million times this.

Fehr isn't going to win. The only way he could have hoped to win was if the owners folded early...and they backed off a lot of their stuff quickly, but Fehr was more interested in playing the showman than getting what needed to get done, so he's ****ed the NHLPA over. At this point I'm just expecting everything to go nuclear until April and the owners are only going to take more and more things off the table. The owners have all the chips and they're far better equipped to be in this for a longer period of time. The players want revenge for 2005...but they don't have good enough cards to pull this ****. Not now.
Nope. He had the owners best deal on the table and he didn't even recognize it in "his" gibberish he placed in front of the owners while being late.

I 100% do not feel sorry for the players for having this guy ruin their chances at remotely saving them some coin.

Learn, and not to learn. Here comes the pain of losing even more.

The point is losing as little as possible, I think/know, this is not happening now.

I/we have a new game to watch, watching to see how much the players will actually lose.





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10-26-2012, 09:19 PM
  #470
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So until mid-late November, we'll hear each side say they're ready to meet but there's nothing to discuss until the other side comes up with a meaningful proposal. And then more games to be canceled. Etc. Etc. Will be interesting to see if and when Fehr starts being more vocal about putting the salary cap back on the table.

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10-26-2012, 09:52 PM
  #471
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So until mid-late November, we'll hear each side say they're ready to meet but there's nothing to discuss until the other side comes up with a meaningful proposal. And then more games to be canceled. Etc. Etc. Will be interesting to see if and when Fehr starts being more vocal about putting the salary cap back on the table.
Nothing work galvanize any wavering owners more than cost certainty being threatened.

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10-27-2012, 10:15 AM
  #472
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I 100% do not feel sorry for the players for having this guy ruin their chances at remotely saving them some coin.
If the players had wanted amiable negotiations they wouldn't have ousted Paul Kelly and replaced him with this notoriously militant blowhard. Wonder what the many players making below league average will say when Christmas comes around and they're still out of work. Ryan Miller already called it a clash of egos and implied that both sides are to blame. The side that will eventually splinter and break is the NHLPA, it's only a question of whether it costs us a whole season.

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10-27-2012, 04:44 PM
  #473
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This is such crap. I still cannot find a valid reason why the NHLPA didn't at least take the NHL's most recent proposal in part, and build their new stuff off of that and see where it went from there. That had to be Fehr's doing because it would've made at least one part of a foundation for a larger TBD agreement. Instead he just pissed on it.

Example: say OK to the split and HRR definition but no to the FA stuff. Create some type of give-take negotiation ethic there.

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10-27-2012, 08:00 PM
  #474
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This is such crap. I still cannot find a valid reason why the NHLPA didn't at least take the NHL's most recent proposal in part, and build their new stuff off of that and see where it went from there. That had to be Fehr's doing because it would've made at least one part of a foundation for a larger TBD agreement. Instead he just pissed on it.

Example: say OK to the split and HRR definition but no to the FA stuff. Create some type of give-take negotiation ethic there.
This is what I was debating you about last month Chancellor. Fehr is an incredibly talented and egotistical man. The NHL HAD to low ball early on to give themselves some negotiating room against this guy.

He has the players wrapped around his thumb, and his real agenda is not getting them the best deal to play this season, but to solidify his name in history via breaking the NHL owners.

I doubt that will happen, but he seems to think he is still up against the same kind of system as in MLB. And for that, we are likely to lose a whole season, as I Just don't see the players figuring things out till the spring when all is lost and they will have to sign for 48% HHR while giving up a bunch of other rights.

The NHL is not fooling around, and will not let up at the end this time like they did in 2005 when the players got a great deal in exchange for the cap. Fehr has really pissed off the NHL leadership, and they will be looking for blood when the players finally wise up and do something about this guy.

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10-27-2012, 09:17 PM
  #475
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Originally Posted by Burgs View Post
If the players had wanted amiable negotiations they wouldn't have ousted Paul Kelly and replaced him with this notoriously militant blowhard. Wonder what the many players making below league average will say when Christmas comes around and they're still out of work. Ryan Miller already called it a clash of egos and implied that both sides are to blame. The side that will eventually splinter and break is the NHLPA, it's only a question of whether it costs us a whole season.
Please raise your hand if you thought the players would come out on top.

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