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The Luongo Thread [Mod Warning in OP]

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Old
10-23-2012, 10:57 AM
  #751
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
Yet you continue to ask for Gardiner. How does a rookie help you right now exactly?
Defence is not our first need but if you get a chance to acquire a young stud defenceman like Gardiner you jump all over it. Not that I think that he's available mind you.

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10-23-2012, 10:57 AM
  #752
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Originally Posted by Nuck This View Post
Kulemin, Finn, Kadri and a first
I'll ask again, how is Luongo worth 4 young assets from a rebuilding team??

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10-23-2012, 11:03 AM
  #753
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Originally Posted by NYVanfan View Post
im actually less crazy about that one myself

He's a year from 30, has a long injury history and hasn't played a full season since he was in Edm 6 years ago. He has limited playoff experience, has a career minus south of -50, and has only been higher than the 50s in pts once in 8 years (last year, largely thanks to Kessel.)

Don't wanna buy high on this guy, tbh ...if we're looking for the top 6 option from TO, it's JVR or bust (assuming Phil's off the table)

But assuming leaf fans don't want to do that, or Gardiner, then it's a combo of futures ...something like 1st, Kadri or Colbourne, Bozak would get it done without either side absolutely hating it.

Then the Canucks would have some cap room and futures to try and upgrade the top 6 elsewhere.
(Kadri/1st/1st/plus for Perry at the deadline, or something...)
Lupul may be something of a gamble but he is certainly one of the better returns offered. Even if he is a product of Kessel, we have the Sedins and Kesler, who are superior players. Thus, it is not a stretch to say Lupul could repeat or exceed his production with us. We are not going to get a guaranteed improvement to our top six trading Luongo. Lupul, being a slight question mark, is the next best thing. I would definitely roll the dice with him were he offered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
Yet you continue to ask for Gardiner. How does a rookie help you right now exactly?
Gardiner allows us to consider moving Edler, who would return a legitimate top six. For instance, if Anaheim is having difficulty signing Perry. It could end up being a UFA swap. Just a scenario, and we would have to add, but Gardiner merely allows us more options.

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10-23-2012, 11:04 AM
  #754
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Would you say Gardiner is better than Ballard? If so, he improves the team.
Jake has played a minimal amout of games. For a team going for the cup...how much would you wanna rely on a rookie in all honesty? Also, doesn't Ballard play on the third pair? If so, it's not like a third pairing dman would dramatically improve your team.

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10-23-2012, 11:05 AM
  #755
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I'll ask again, how is Luongo worth 4 young assets from a rebuilding team??
Why does a rebuilding team want Lu?

Luongo has a price, it doesn't matter what type of team is paying that price.

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10-23-2012, 11:08 AM
  #756
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
Jake has played a minimal amout of games. For a team going for the cup...how much would you wanna rely on a rookie in all honesty? Also, doesn't Ballard play on the third pair? If so, it's not like a third pairing dman would dramatically improve your team.

Are you saying Ballard is more reliable than Gardiner?

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10-23-2012, 11:19 AM
  #757
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Why does a rebuilding team want Lu?

Luongo has a price, it doesn't matter what type of team is paying that price.
True, but if that price is for of the best young assets from a team that is rebuilding...it pretty much takes them out of the equasion...and in this case, that doesn't leave alot of dance partners.

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10-23-2012, 11:20 AM
  #758
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Agreed. So Luongo must be traded for an upgrade to our top 6. Luongo in a deal for Lupul makes sense.
Given the fact that Lupul has been injury prone in every season he has played, was considered a draft bust up until last season, is a defensive liability on the ice that reaches MacArthur/Raymond replacement level if he isn't producing,has one year left on his contract and could be hesitant to resign with the leafs especially if he still holds a grudge against Carlyle; it would make a lot of sense for Burke to at least consider trading Lupul for Luongo. However, given all that (doubt he'll be much more popular with AV than Carlyle) and the uncertainty of which Lupul shows up next year (draft bust Lupul or top 6 impact F Lupul?), I doubt Gillis goes anywhere near that with a ten foot pole.

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Old
10-23-2012, 11:21 AM
  #759
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Originally Posted by gabeliscious View Post
what are your team needs?

what is the absolute number 1 priority to push you over the edge into a big time contender?

what are secondary needs that could use filling/ upgrading?
Absolute most pressing need is an upgrade to our top 6 forwards. Either a center better than Kesler who pushes Kesler to the wing (highly unlikely), or a right winger with grit who can score 20-25 goals and tally 40-50 assists consistently. We have an overload of left handed shots, so someone who's a right handed shot is needed (I think we have 4 or 5 left handed shots in our top 6 right now).

Secondary needs:

1) puck moving defenseman. I still don't see our Ehrhoff replacement. Garrison is good but he brings a different skill set. We need someone who can lead a rush and skate fluidly.

2) Offensive/two way third line center. Someone who can lead a third scoring line, while not being incompetent in the defensive zone. Someone who could act as a stop gap if Schroeder isn't ready, although it wouldn't be the end of the world to have him work with Lapierre on that line.

3) high end forward prospects. The Sedins contracts are up in 2 years and we need someone who can transition into a 1st or 2nd line role going forward.

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10-23-2012, 11:21 AM
  #760
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
I love the mis information. When Cujo left for Detroit his play slipped significantly, and Belfour was incosistent (although very solid at times) with Toronto. The question was goalies in their late 30's to 40's. You have posted two 32 year olds, a 30 year old and a 29 year old. The question was how many goalies played at the top of their game in their mid 30's to 40. Scratch those of the list as well as Thomas, you do know how old he was when he came into the NHL? It`s one thing to disagree, but dont try to change facts to push an agenda. No one said Lou cant be a top goalie in his mid 30`s to 40`s, but they are very very few in the NHL that have done that.
I stated that I was listing every goalie I can remember that was nominated for the Veizna multiple times in basically "modern" goaltending (i.e. everyone one Roy or later).

CuJo was hated in Detroit the day he started there at the age of 37. His numbers his first year there were actually better than his numbers in his last year in Toronto (which earned him a huge contract in Detroit). CuJo lost in the first round of the playoffs so Detroit brought in Hasek to be the starter next year (which really pissed CuJo off since he was still under contract). Hasek got hurt and Joseph came back and played pretty well for the rest of the season (his 38 year old season). Detroit moved Joseph to Phoenix where he played well as a starter and got a contract extension from Phoenix (39 year old season). The next year he started 55 games but was not very good (age 40), did not get renewed and played backup for a few years (age 41 and 42).

If you are going to decide that Belfour was never good in Toronto then I don't think we have anything else to talk about. He was solid in Toronto (0.922 and 0.918) save percentages in his first two years there. He had a bad year at the age of 41 in his last year there before moving on to Florida and becoming their starter at the age of 42.


Last edited by DJOpus: 10-23-2012 at 11:42 AM.
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Old
10-23-2012, 11:23 AM
  #761
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Are you saying Ballard is more reliable than Gardiner?
No, I'm saying given third line minutes, a player has less impact.

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Old
10-23-2012, 11:24 AM
  #762
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Bozak + Colbourne + 1st for Luongo

Or

Kulemin + Colbourne + 1st for Luongo

Or

Lombardi + Colbourne + Kadri + 1st for Luongo + Raymond
I believe that Kadri will end up a winger, not a Center once he transitions to the NHL.

The Leafs second biggest weakness is at Center. Any deal that involves sending TWO centers away, without a very good one coming back, just doesn't make any sense at all right now. Bozak, while nothing special, is quite simply a player that the Leafs can't afford to give away right now, unless another C is coming back, or a separate deal is done.

I do appreciate that the Canucks could use a third line C, and if requested, I'm sure Burke would throw in Connolly or Lombardi. Both are frankly throw-ins to fill short-term needs of the Canucks, and not the value in the trade.

The only way a first happens, is if it is top-ten protected. Otherwise there is absolutely no chance this happens. I'm not sure it matters much, given the reducing likelihood there even is a season.

The simple reality is that it isn't in the best interest of Vancouver to keep Luongo. It is poor cap management at this point, and if you've got the opportunity to address needs, when you have excess, you do. This is without even addressing a disgruntled player, who despite whatever is said in public, will not be happy. As far as I can tell, third line C, and a two/three winger are the most glaring needs. Aiming for the sky is laudable, but when the bidding is between just a couple of teams, who may or may not have much interest, the price isn't always going to be what you might hope, or what it might be if many teams were interested.

There is also a reality that neither Gillis, nor Burke will double check with posters here to see that one group of posters to go stuff it, because demands haven't been met. Gillis and Burke will do what is best for their clubs, but there will be no fleecing either way.

I still believe it will look something like MacArthur, Kadri a second... if you ask for a Connolly or Lombardi, you'll get that too, but I wouldn't consider that as losing anything from our side. It addresses the needs of the Canucks, and is reasonable value. It is a trade that impacts the Leafs, without causing further holes in their lineup.

While I appreciate that Burke doesn't look at it this way, as a Leafs fan I know Luongo is our best chance for the playoffs. I also know that without him, we are a potential lottery team. Given some posters are asking for a ransom here, I wouldn't want to take the chance on making the playoffs barely, but having given up players/needs that won't allow us to move further up the chain. It has to be a deal that helps BOTH sides.

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10-23-2012, 11:29 AM
  #763
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Absolute most pressing need is an upgrade to our top 6 forwards. Either a center better than Kesler who pushes Kesler to the wing (highly unlikely), or a right winger with grit who can score 20-25 goals and tally 40-50 assists consistently. We have an overload of left handed shots, so someone who's a right handed shot is needed (I think we have 4 or 5 left handed shots in our top 6 right now).

Secondary needs:

1) puck moving defenseman. I still don't see our Ehrhoff replacement. Garrison is good but he brings a different skill set. We need someone who can lead a rush and skate fluidly.

2) Offensive/two way third line center. Someone who can lead a third scoring line, while not being incompetent in the defensive zone. Someone who could act as a stop gap if Schroeder isn't ready, although it wouldn't be the end of the world to have him work with Lapierre on that line.

3) high end forward prospects. The Sedins contracts are up in 2 years and we need someone who can transition into a 1st or 2nd line role going forward.
1) Liles is what you would get from the Leafs to meet that need. Long-term, Liles is expendable to the Leafs (Gardiner and Rielly are long-term solutions), so I can see that being part of the deal, if that is what was asked for. Franson has a good shot, but isn't a PMD.

2) You could have Connolly or Lombardi.. both are stop gaps. Unfortunately, the Leafs can't afford to give anyone else up at this point.

3) Leafs don't really have high end forward prospects outside of Kadri. As part of the deal.. I'm fine with that.

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10-23-2012, 11:30 AM
  #764
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Luongo is a really good goaltender. His contract isnt the greatest, but this guy instantly improves a team.

Chicago
Colorado
Columbus
Edmonton
New Jersey
Phoenix
San Jose
Tampa

Toronto
Washington

Luongo is easily a starter on all the above teams. & Makes each one of those teams better.

Bolded teams I can see as really considering it.

Luongo in Washington would be dynamite.

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10-23-2012, 11:36 AM
  #765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
1) Liles is what you would get from the Leafs to meet that need. Long-term, Liles is expendable to the Leafs (Gardiner and Rielly are long-term solutions), so I can see that being part of the deal, if that is what was asked for. Franson has a good shot, but isn't a PMD.

2) You could have Connolly or Lombardi.. both are stop gaps. Unfortunately, the Leafs can't afford to give anyone else up at this point.

3) Leafs don't really have high end forward prospects outside of Kadri. As part of the deal.. I'm fine with that.
Yeah none of these are quality assets that are worth Luongo. Not denying Liles doesn't bring the components we need as a secondary need, but he isn't worth Luongo.

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Old
10-23-2012, 11:38 AM
  #766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Luongo is a really good goaltender. His contract isnt the greatest, but this guy instantly improves a team.

Chicago
Colorado
Columbus
Edmonton
New Jersey
Phoenix
San Jose
Tampa

Toronto
Washington

Luongo is easily a starter on all the above teams. & Makes each one of those teams better.

Bolded teams I can see as really considering it.

Luongo in Washington would be dynamite.
Luongo in Tampa would have won the Cup in 2011.

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10-23-2012, 11:44 AM
  #767
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Luongo in Tampa would have won the Cup in 2011.
Luongo in Van didn't win the cup in 2011 and they were Prz trophy champions, how can you state this with such clarity??

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10-23-2012, 11:45 AM
  #768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Luongo in Van didn't win the cup in 2011 and they were Prz trophy champions, how can you state this with such clarity??
Simple: Tampa's offense didn't disappear in the playoffs like the Canucks did.

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10-23-2012, 11:47 AM
  #769
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Yeah none of these are quality assets that are worth Luongo. Not denying Liles doesn't bring the components we need as a secondary need, but he isn't worth Luongo.
It doesn't matter who you deal with, you aren't getting one player back that is equal to Luongo. Besides you need to separate his value as a player compared to others playing the position, to his value on the trade market. These are two different things, and value on the trade market is Supply vs. Demand. The goal will not be to get equal value back, but to find a way to address a number of needs, and improve the team. As you've identified the needs you feel are most important, than I would suggest that Liles, Lombardi/Connolly, Kadri and a second are about the maximum you will get, and collectively that might be as much as the market will give you, no matter how you value the player. It meets your needs. You aren't going to hit a home run on this, be happy improving the team.

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10-23-2012, 11:47 AM
  #770
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I don't understand why some people say, with such certainty, that the Canucks MUST trade Luongo, that he'll never play another game for them, etc.

Why? They have two very good goalies, nothing wrong with that.

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10-23-2012, 11:50 AM
  #771
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Having the cap space open right now allows the Canucks to make a trade for that top 6 forward they covet. It provides flexibility to your GM to go out and be aggressive trying to bring in that final piece.
And other than Luongo, what expendable pieces do we move to acquire such a player?

This is one of the biggest faults with armchair gm's.
"team x clears up cap space".

Well why do they want cap space? They just made their team worse for cap space they could theoretically possibly use eventually.

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10-23-2012, 11:50 AM
  #772
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I don't understand why some people say, with such certainty, that the Canucks MUST trade Luongo, that he'll never play another game for them, etc.

Why? They have two very good goalies, nothing wrong with that.
Their GM has taken them down this road not the fans.

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10-23-2012, 11:50 AM
  #773
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Originally Posted by LancelotLink View Post
I don't understand why some people say, with such certainty, that the Canucks MUST trade Luongo, that he'll never play another game for them, etc.

Why? They have two very good goalies, nothing wrong with that.
Having $5.3M on the bench as your #2 goalie is a terrible idea.

That's why.

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10-23-2012, 11:52 AM
  #774
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
It doesn't matter who you deal with, you aren't getting one player back that is equal to Luongo. Besides you need to separate his value as a player compared to others playing the position, to his value on the trade market. These are two different things, and value on the trade market is Supply vs. Demand. The goal will not be to get equal value back, but to find a way to address a number of needs, and improve the team. As you've identified the needs you feel are most important, than I would suggest that Liles, Lombardi/Connolly, Kadri and a second are about the maximum you will get, and collectively that might be as much as the market will give you, no matter how you value the player. It meets your needs.
There are apparently more teams than Toronto interested. So the team with 2 elite goalies holds all the keys, not the team in desperate need of a goalie.

Liles is coming off a 27 point season. He's also a left side defenseman. I probably should have specified that we need a right side puck moving defenseman, unless its a long-term pickup like Gardiner who could potentially expel Edler.

Lombardi and Connolly are garbage cap dumps. As I mentioned I'd rather see if Schroeder can handle the job first.

Nazem Kadri has a lot of question marks and shouldn't be considered a top prospect at all.

Our absolutely number 1 need is a top 6 upgrade. That is what we need to be targeting.

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10-23-2012, 11:53 AM
  #775
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
Having $5.3M on the bench as your #2 goalie is a terrible idea.

That's why.
Except he wouldn't be our #2 goalie. It's funny how a Toronto fan somehow knows more about the Canucks than Vancouver fans

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