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Rielly vs Grigorenko vs Forsberg vs Faksa

View Poll Results: In hindsight, who would you have taken?
Rielly...somethin between Orr and Leetch 99 72.79%
Grigorenko...somethin between Malkin and Antropov 21 15.44%
Forsberg...Swedish Rick Nash, not a center 14 10.29%
Faksa...big 2-way center potential great #2C 2 1.47%
Voters: 136. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-23-2012, 12:46 PM
  #51
Interactif
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Did you mean Normand Dupont?

Yeah, what does the QMJHL know about producing solid NHL players, right? Who the hell even remembers guys like Mario Lemieux, Guy Lafleur, Sydney Crosby, Pat Lafontaine, Patrick Roy, Sylvain Coté, Pierre Turgeon, Marty Brodeur, Felix Potvin, Lecavalier, Tanguay, Gagné, Brad Richards, Mike Ribeiro, and some hack by the name of Mike Bossy......

Honestly, though. Give it a rest. When people make your other excuses for the hate-fest look silly, then you turn to attack the league he plays in. A league, if I'm not mistaken, that defeated those other two great leagues in the tournament between them. A league that has helped produce 4 of the most memorable, and impactful players the game has ever seen.
Aubin not Dupont. Never said the Q didn't produce good players, but some of the stats from unknowns in that league are legendary, and stop being so sensitive will you? Grigorenko has had his pats on the back this season, however until he does it when it counts, against the best of his peer group or in the playoffs, when games are more meaningful, there will always be a ?

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10-23-2012, 12:54 PM
  #52
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I'm not being sensitive.... I'm just pointing out that you have a total vendetta against a kid, based on a sample of like.... I don't know.... 8 games? The other sample you use is based on a time when he was in recovery mode from a decimating illness, one which would put the average person in bed, or the infirmary, yet still had respectable stats, despite being sick.

Hey, he could also drink in the states, according to you, and some other dreamers, so he's totally supposed to dominate at this level, right?

Ridiculous.

Quebec junior hockey isn't at its best right now, but the QMJHL is a FINE hockey league for players to develop in.

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10-23-2012, 12:58 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
So what you're saying is not only that the QMJHL is a second-rate hockey development league, but you're saying this because the coaching is sub-par?
No I think you did, all I said is some of the stats compiled in that league are grossly inflated. Don't get too excited if a player is averaging 2 points per game and is only 5th in scoring in the league. This should be clear enough for you to not put words anymore words in my mouth. lol

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10-23-2012, 01:01 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
I'm not being sensitive.... I'm just pointing out that you have a total vendetta against a kid, based on a sample of like.... I don't know.... 8 games? The other sample you use is based on a time when he was in recovery mode from a decimating illness, one which would put the average person in bed, or the infirmary, yet still had respectable stats, despite being sick.

Hey, he could also drink in the states, according to you, and some other dreamers, so he's totally supposed to dominate at this level, right?

Ridiculous.

Quebec junior hockey isn't at its best right now, but the QMJHL is a FINE hockey league for players to develop in.
Then I am in good company, a whole lot of scouts and Gm's passed on Grigs this summer. Yeah a lot of us have vendetta's here.

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10-23-2012, 01:03 PM
  #55
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"Grigorenko is tearing up a league where the defence resembles swiss cheese, yep impressive. "

So.... Saying that the league he plays in knows nothing about defense.....

And... "Dave Cameron, Stan Butler, Steve Spott, Ect.... Deboer prior to this. I am not sure we will ever see, Ernie Godden type numbers again. Quality coaching in full display in the OHL."

In relation to the back and forth about the quality of leagues, backhanded comment about the coaching in the QMJHL.....

I dunno man, I just read what's there, even if your "clever" point is between the lines.

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10-23-2012, 01:06 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Then I am in good company, a whole lot of scouts and Gm's passed on Grigs this summer. Yeah a lot of us have vendetta's here.
You liken yourself to GM's, which is a complete joke. You liken yourself to scouts, which is also a joke.

How many scouts and GM's wished they would've taken Eberle? Gagne? Richards? Chara? Lidstrom? Fedorov? Bure?

Shall I continue, or do you understand that GM's and scouts eat major crow on a year to year basis?

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10-23-2012, 01:08 PM
  #57
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Done being goated into de-railing a thread.

I love Rielly, and he's the only D-man I wanted. So I'm happy with him. I would've liked to fill some needs up front, but that didn't happen. Grigs would've been the guy if we picked anyone else, at that point.

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10-23-2012, 01:15 PM
  #58
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Then I am in good company, a whole lot of scouts and Gm's passed on Grigs this summer. Yeah a lot of us have vendetta's here.
Would he have slid out of the top 5/10 if he wasn't Russian ? Also we don't need to knock other teams prospects just to make one of ours look better . Rielly/Grigo both have the potential to be an impact players regardless of who drafted them .

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10-23-2012, 01:17 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
You liken yourself to GM's, which is a complete joke. You liken yourself to scouts, which is also a joke.

How many scouts and GM's wished they would've taken Eberle? Gagne? Richards? Chara? Lidstrom? Fedorov? Bure?

Shall I continue, or do you understand that GM's and scouts eat major crow on a year to year basis?
Please continue, you didn't address why a once #1. Possible pick was passed over by scouts and gms..real ones as you allude to. Lol

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10-23-2012, 01:21 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Done being goated into de-railing a thread.

I love Rielly, and he's the only D-man I wanted. So I'm happy with him. I would've liked to fill some needs up front, but that didn't happen. Grigs would've been the guy if we picked anyone else, at that point.
Pointing out the Q has inflated scorers is goading to yiu, you don't know how a message board wroks do you?

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10-23-2012, 01:23 PM
  #61
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Please continue, you didn't address why a once #1. Possible pick was passed over by scouts and gms..real ones as you allude to. Lol
I actually did. I gave a number of fine examples of players who were passed over, who went on to show the GM's who passed on them, that they had made a big mistake. That's the key. Professionals make mistakes, and in this line of work, they make them quite often.

In 2003 alone, How many teams pass on Perry, Getzlaf, Parise, Loui Erikssen, Shea Webber, and Patrice Bergeron, if they had a do-over?

The answer: Not Many.

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10-23-2012, 01:32 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Would he have slid out of the top 5/10 if he wasn't Russian ? Also we don't need to knock other teams prospects just to make one of ours look better . Rielly/Grigo both have the potential to be an impact players regardless of who drafted them .
As you can see typing on BB not easy. At one point I may have bought into the russian factor. I just don't think grigorenko is that talented. He's slow, he's not a psssionate player on the ice. By that I mean he has yet to impose his will on a game.

He does possess good vision and has hands. Francise C? No, top 6 C maybe. 2C secondary scorer at the NHL is where I see him.

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10-23-2012, 01:48 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
I actually did. I gave a number of fine examples of players who were passed over, who went on to show the GM's who passed on them, that they had made a big mistake. That's the key. Professionals make mistakes, and in this line of work, they make them quite often.

In 2003 alone, How many teams pass on Perry, Getzlaf, Parise, Loui Erikssen, Shea Webber, and Patrice Bergeron, if they had a do-over?

The answer: Not Many.
Again, were those guys possible #1 overall picks? Big distinction I have mentioned twice now that you missed.

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10-23-2012, 01:52 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
As you can see typing on BB not easy. At one point I may have bought into the russian factor. I just don't think grigorenko is that talented. He's slow, he's not a psssionate player on the ice. By that I mean he has yet to impose his will on a game.

He does possess good vision and has hands. Francise C? No, top 6 C maybe. 2C secondary scorer at the NHL is where I see him.
It seems you're basing your opinion on a few games this summer . I really don't care what he develops into because he isn't one of our prospects but i'm also not going to deny the guy has high end talent just to justify the Leafs passing on him .

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10-23-2012, 01:57 PM
  #65
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Again, were those guys possible #1 overall picks? Big distinction I have mentioned twice now that you missed.
It actually proves my point even further that they weren't. They were guys not even touted to be #1, where GM's made a big mistake on passing on these guys, because their projections, and those of their scouts, were complete garbage. A kid ranked as high as Grigorenko was, falling down to 12, may be just a more highlighted example in the future.

He's playing great hockey, and leading his team (which is one of the best in the league) in scoring, as well as being top 5 in his league. Until he shows he's not one of the premier prospects in the world, this smear job you live by will continue to look silly.

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10-23-2012, 02:00 PM
  #66
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Again, were those guys possible #1 overall picks? Big distinction I have mentioned twice now that you missed.
There's always prospects that get mentioned as potential first overall picks before the season starts . Your statement doesn't mean much . Yak was always cosidered the concensus num 1 pick with Gal/Grigo/Fores among others mentioned as potential guys who could unseat him .

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10-23-2012, 02:16 PM
  #67
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It seems you're basing your opinion on a few games this summer . I really don't care what he develops into because he isn't one of our prospects but i'm also not going to deny the guy has high end talent just to justify the Leafs passing on him .
His Canada - Russia series was basically reported and seen as a carry over from his lacklustre playoff. In my opinion, Jonathan Huberdeau was so superior to him in this summer it wasn't even close. Granted he's a year younger, but I don't see Grigorenko as a player that can lift his game. He's a x's and o's player. This is where Nichuskin has a leg up on him, that's why I prefer Valery.

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10-23-2012, 02:20 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
It actually proves my point even further that they weren't. They were guys not even touted to be #1, where GM's made a big mistake on passing on these guys, because their projections, and those of their scouts, were complete garbage. A kid ranked as high as Grigorenko was, falling down to 12, may be just a more highlighted example in the future.

He's playing great hockey, and leading his team (which is one of the best in the league) in scoring, as well as being top 5 in his league. Until he shows he's not one of the premier prospects in the world, this smear job you live by will continue to look silly.
Don't get that analogy, they were late developers, certainly Getzlaf was. Plus 2003 was a very stacked draft class.

Happens all the time in drafts, 18 year olds develop at different stages. This has nothing to do with Grigorenko who was already highly touted, and then dropping. Huberdeau came off the radar to be picked 3rd overall. Seeing him now, you can surmise why, this kid will smoke Gally or Grigorenko for years to come, he's a mini Toews, a possible franchise C. There were no Franchise C's in last year's draft, this is why we drafted Rielly and why it was a defence heavy draft.

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10-23-2012, 02:31 PM
  #69
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His Canada - Russia series was basically reported and seen as a carry over from his lacklustre playoff. In my opinion, Jonathan Huberdeau was so superior to him in this summer it wasn't even close. Granted he's a year younger, but I don't see Grigorenko as a player that can lift his game. He's a x's and o's player. This is where Nichuskin has a leg up on him, that's why I prefer Valery.
He was playing through mono which explains his lethargic play in the playoffs and i don't put much stock in summer games when all the players haven't played any games for a few months .

I don't need to make excuses for the guy comsidering he's not one of our prospects but i also don't need to knock him . Rielly and Grigo among a number of prospects are having great seasons so far and i'm just happy we drafted a potential impact player with our pick .

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10-23-2012, 02:41 PM
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He was playing through mono which explains his lethargic play in the playoffs and i don't put much stock in summer games when all the players haven't played any games for a few months .

I don't need to make excuses for the guy comsidering he's not one of our prospects but i also don't need to knock him . Rielly and Grigo among a number of prospects are having great seasons so far and i'm just happy we drafted a potential impact player with our pick .
Yeah the mono, everyone knew he had it, they factored it into his performance. We will see if scouts and GM's were right to pass on him, knowing his situation. You obviously like him, I like him as a secondary support center. Nothing to do with him being Russian or his attitude, it's more based on seeing nothing particularily extraordinary in him. Ernie will call this a hack job because I don't fawn over this prospect like he does. To me it's called disagreeing viewpoints. That's hockey.

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10-23-2012, 02:51 PM
  #71
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I see Grigs as a Boom or Bust prospect. Considering his relatively unpolished all around game (weak defensively, doesn't use his size, etc). He NEEDS to score at a high pace to be considered a franchise player.

Toews can put up 70 points, and be considered a franchise player. If Grigorenko puts up 70 points, he'd be considered a below average first-line Centre. Kinda like when Ribeiro puts up those types of numbers, but nobody considers him to be a franchise player.

So for Grigs to be considered a franchise player, he either needs to greatly round out his game, or he needs to be putting up some phenomenal numbers, 80+ points on a consistent basis.

Faksa on the other hand is more of a steady prospect. Good two-way game, questionable high-end skill. But if he only puts up 50 points a season, he could still become a pretty valuable piece. Grigorenko putting up 50 points? Pretty useless player (barring improved defensive/physical play).

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10-23-2012, 02:53 PM
  #72
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From an outsiders perspective, I'd say that Rielly was the best choice, not only on draft day, but still is for you guys.

He's just as NHL ready as all the other you names that were mentioned and has just as much upside. The Leafs certainly have a deep defence on paper, but they haven't lived up to expectations, so it wasn't surprised that he was taken.

Puck moving defenceman are essential in todays game, especially ones who can it do so well like Rielly, and once you add him in with Phaneuf and Gardiner, the Leafs look like a very dangerous team, maybe even more so than with Forsberg or Grigorenko.

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10-23-2012, 02:56 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
I see Grigs as a Boom or Bust prospect. Considering his relatively unpolished all around game (weak defensively, doesn't use his size, etc). He NEEDS to score at a high pace to be considered a franchise player.

Toews can put up 70 points, and be considered a franchise player. If Grigorenko puts up 70 points, he'd be considered a below average first-line Centre. Kinda like when Ribeiro puts up those types of numbers, but nobody considers him to be a franchise player.
Very well articulated and well stated.

Same analogy when comparing Grigorenko to Huberdeau, one has a tonne of intangibles, the other not so much.

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10-23-2012, 02:57 PM
  #74
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I absolutely fail to see, to this day, how anyone would rate Murray over Rielly. It's all a matter of opinion, but I don't see Murray as a "Special" player.

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10-23-2012, 02:59 PM
  #75
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Prior to the draft, this poll probably wouldn't be so one-sided. Many Leaf fans, myself included were leaning towards either Grigs or Forsberg (my pick).

I'll admit I suffered from tunnel vision, praying we drafted a forward. Since we've drafted Rielly, I cannot wait until he's up with the big club. His potential is sky-high, although I'm trying to keep my expectation into perspective, however Rielly is making that very tough with the start he's had with Moose Jaw so far this season. I haven't been this excited for a Toronto-based prospect since Araujo for the Raps

Definitely considering buying his jersey when he's up with the Leafs

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