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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Hamilton or Toronto2/Markham

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Hamilton 107 47.56%
GTA2/Markham 118 52.44%
Voters: 225. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-23-2012, 02:17 PM
  #26
Swarez
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
What if this happens Toronto has 2 NHL. teams & Hamilton has 2 football teams .

Toronto
Toronto 2 (Markham)
Maple Leafs

Hamilton
Hamilton Tiger Cats
Hamilton (NFL. Buffalo Bills )

You know somthing that would really stick it to Toronto especially Rogers communacations .
How'd the bills go to Hamilton?

Are they playing in ivor whynn now?

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10-23-2012, 02:45 PM
  #27
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... Copps isnt sufficient right now.
...disappointed to read youve bought into the NHL's propaganda hook, line & sinker danishh. Apparently even without the renovations & retrofits required it was better than "sufficient" for the Memorial Cup, World Junior Championships, the Calder Cup & of course the Canada Cup.... utter nonsense that Copps' is insufficient in any way whatsoever provided its brought up to date. Its a simple shell that wasnt completed, finished as the city wanted to make sure they'd landed a franchise before doing so. It was the first of its kind in North America of the generation of arenas' that followed from Ottawa to Vancouver. If Copps' is "unsuitable", then so too is the Roy Rogers & Scotiabank amongst others.

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10-23-2012, 02:45 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Swarez99 View Post
How'd the bills go to Hamilton?

Are they playing in ivor whynn now?
I don't know much the story just broke today & my reaction was WHAT are they serious but there is a serious ownership group that has business plan & thinks that the Bills movving to Hamilton would be better for corpratte sponsers , the sale of luxury suites & Hamilton being only 65 miles from Buffalo & a move there would be much easier for bills fans to stomach than say a Toronto , Los Angeles or San Antonio .

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10-23-2012, 03:04 PM
  #29
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I don't know much the story just broke today & my reaction was WHAT are they serious but there is a serious ownership group that has business plan & thinks that the Bills movving to Hamilton would be better for corpratte sponsers , the sale of luxury suites & Hamilton being only 65 miles from Buffalo & a move there would be much easier for bills fans to stomach than say a Toronto , Los Angeles or San Antonio .
Logically it doesn't make sense. Hamilton couldn't afford to build a new stadium, Toronto won't build one publicly. There are what 9 home dates for football including pre-season, plus playoffs not enough revenue generated especially here where football isn't king. Not to mention the people who built the ACC, scotia bank place and GM place (three privately built arenas) essentially went bankrupt after construction.

If the Bills move north (which I doubt in general), there going to skydome.

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Old
10-23-2012, 03:39 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by NathanSeguin View Post
Well the OP says:

Quote:
Where would you rather see a new nhl team
I gave my opinion.
Actually, it says

Quote:
Where would you rather see a new nhl team in Southern Ontario
I get what you're trying to do, but the OP has already covered that base. Let's not be intentionally obtuse, hm?

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10-23-2012, 03:40 PM
  #31
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Someone should build an arena in Cambridge to service southern Ontario (Kitchener-Waterloo, Hamilton, Guelph, Brantford, even London). Or somewhere along the 401 just out of reach of the Maple Leaf restrictive territory (which would be about somewhere directly west of Cambridge and south of Kitchener).
That would ultimately be the best location, serving the huge population of southern Ontario outside of Toronto, and also sufficiently distant from Buffalo not to ill-effect the Sabres.
I like this idea.
Partially because I have good memories of that area. My relatives out there would probably be happy to have an NHL team in the area.

Since the options are only Markham or Hamilton I'll go with Hamilton conditional on them naming the team the Steelheads.

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10-23-2012, 03:46 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Swarez99 View Post
Logically it doesn't make sense. Hamilton couldn't afford to build a new stadium, Toronto won't build one publicly. There are what 9 home dates for football including pre-season, plus playoffs not enough revenue generated especially here where football isn't king. Not to mention the people who built the ACC, scotia bank place and GM place (three privately built arenas) essentially went bankrupt after construction.

If the Bills move north (which I doubt in general), there going to skydome.
I don't think the Bills are going anywhere ethier heck I don't want them here at or any where else in southern ontario but I think it is just ploy to get more corprate sponsers to help out the Bills pay to renovte or bulid a stadium in Buffalo . I think the reason they would choose Hamiton is because its 65 miles away from buffalo & a stadium can be bulit cheap with private funds here not like anywhere in the usa.where a new stadium can run about 600 million to billion dollars where is in canada you can bulid a 50.000 seat stadium for about 400 to about 500 million dollars . In my opinion I think the Bills should stay in Buffalo because an NFL. team here could kill the CFL. & in my opinion the CFL. is a far more better game as a whole also I don't think Hamilton want an NFL. team Hamilton wants the NHL. team iit rightfully deserves .

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10-23-2012, 03:51 PM
  #33
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I imagine the answer could easily be "Both" - there are enough hockey fans in the Golden Horseshoe to support 3 teams. I chose GTA2/Markham because Hamilton doesn't do much to support its AHL Bulldogs, so I wonder how hockey-mad they are there (or if it's just that they're close enough to Toronto/Buffalo that they don't have to pay attention to the AHL).

The Leafs would still be the premier team in the neighbourhood - like the Rangers are in the NYC area. Of course, the new Golden Horseshoe franchises would probably fare a lot better than the Isles and Devils financially.

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10-23-2012, 03:52 PM
  #34
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Voted Hamiton to make it a deadlock at 39 each. Can't imagine the battle for TV and marketing rights' going well for the Toronto2 team. Hamilton is out of the way and makes more sense. We don't want the Islanders part 2..

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10-23-2012, 04:05 PM
  #35
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Back when RIM was strong, I was thinking K/W.

Doesn't seem like an option any longer.

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10-23-2012, 04:06 PM
  #36
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I voted Markham, simply because I'm only a 30 minute drive away. 20 minutes after the 407 is completed.

Still a Leaf fan though. I assume I'll hate the Markham Waxers, or whatever they call themselves, as much as I hate Ottawa.

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10-23-2012, 04:08 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
Voted Hamiton to make it a deadlock at 39 each. Can't imagine the battle for TV and marketing rights' going well for the Toronto2 team. Hamilton is out of the way and makes more sense. We don't want the Islanders part 2..
You wouldn't.

Even if the team in Markham charged 50% of what the Leafs charge, they'd make a killing at the gate and be sold out every game.

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10-23-2012, 04:25 PM
  #38
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we should start a poll, who would you rather meet, the tooth fairy or Santa?

Because neither is gonna happen. Not unless MLSEL can find a way to make profit from it.

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10-23-2012, 04:27 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Blue'sClues View Post
we should start a poll, who would you rather meet, the tooth fairy or Santa?

Because neither is gonna happen. Not unless MLSEL can find a way to make profit from it.
Santa. Definitely.

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10-23-2012, 04:47 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
How many times I have to say this a Toronto2 (Markham) is not going to happen because MLSE. will pull out all the stops to make sure it dose not happen besides this so called arena in Markham is far from a done deal & might not get bulit .

Hamilton is in far better position to land an NHL. team that has been in years with Global Spectrum takking over running Copps Coliseum & with the loomming threat of another NHL. team in the GTA. MLSE. will be more than willing to help Hamilton get an NHL. team just to keep Markham out of the NHL. . Lets not forget an upgrade to Copps Coliseum can be done quite quickly & I would not put past the city that Hamilton has contractors on stand by or speed dail ready to go at a moments notice .

Also Hamilton is booming with investment with hotels & condos going up left & right not mention a new stadium & the possiblity of casino being bulit here an NHL. team will be iciing on the cake & make this city complete .
I still think Hamilton or Markham or both is plausible only because of the Rogers/Bell sale.

Since the NHL has to approve all sales, they can strongarm a little bit (and Rogers/Bell would probably play ball with media rights as compensation, since that's why they bought the Leafs: Content).

For all we know, the NHL already did that. Granted, the odds the NHL had forethought is slim to none; but the realistic possibility that a Rogers/Bell falling out leads to TWO Toronto teams is a VERY likely scenario.

There's no way two rivals will be able to work together for a prolonged period of time. And both sides will want the other to walk away. So the only logical solution to the impasse is Rogers/Bell each split media rights for BOTH teams, and one company gets a Toronto expansion team (and the company keeping the Leafs pays off the NHL/Sabres).

The Leafs sale opens the door, and if the NHL really wanted to make a Hamilton and Markham expansion happen, they could have orchestrated it.

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10-23-2012, 04:54 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Someone should build an arena in Cambridge to service southern Ontario (Kitchener-Waterloo, Hamilton, Guelph, Brantford, even London). Or somewhere along the 401 just out of reach of the Maple Leaf restrictive territory (which would be about somewhere directly west of Cambridge and south of Kitchener).
That would ultimately be the best location, serving the huge population of southern Ontario outside of Toronto, and also sufficiently distant from Buffalo not to ill-effect the Sabres.
Problem is then Detroit would show up with their palms out. That area is completely covered, they have to pay some people to make it happen. Detroit could stomach the scenario you are saying but they will want a check as will the Leafs still. The Buffalo area simply will not allow their part of the market to be fringed upon. In fact part of the problem is I would guess Pegula got certain protections when purchasing the team to insure this wouldn't happen.

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10-23-2012, 04:54 PM
  #42
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I voted for Toronto2/Markham. If you were to use the NYC comparison, Toronto2/Markham would be the Islanders while Hamilton is New Jersey. From a broader marketing point-of-view, Toronto2 would have a broader appeal.

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10-23-2012, 04:58 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
I don't think the Bills are going anywhere ethier heck I don't want them here at or any where else in southern ontario but I think it is just ploy to get more corprate sponsers to help out the Bills pay to renovte or bulid a stadium in Buffalo . I think the reason they would choose Hamiton is because its 65 miles away from buffalo & a stadium can be bulit cheap with private funds here not like anywhere in the usa.where a new stadium can run about 600 million to billion dollars where is in canada you can bulid a 50.000 seat stadium for about 400 to about 500 million dollars . In my opinion I think the Bills should stay in Buffalo because an NFL. team here could kill the CFL. & in my opinion the CFL. is a far more better game as a whole also I don't think Hamilton want an NFL. team Hamilton wants the NHL. team iit rightfully deserves .
Ralph Wilson isn't getting any younger. The Bills are in for an interesting transition when that franchise goes up for sale. NFL teams are not cheap. Even Wilson lived in Detroit (Grosse Pointe) the entire time he has owned that team.

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10-23-2012, 05:00 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Blue'sClues View Post
we should start a poll, who would you rather meet, the tooth fairy or Santa?

Because neither is gonna happen. Not unless MLSEL can find a way to make profit from it.
how 2011. there's a new pair of sheriff's in mlse town now, and they both have another side business called broadcast television. both would eagerly welcome another team for the content.

oh and fwiw, santa.

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10-23-2012, 05:02 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Blue'sClues View Post
we should start a poll, who would you rather meet, the tooth fairy or Santa?

Because neither is gonna happen. Not unless MLSEL can find a way to make profit from it.
Expansion fee to pay to MLSEL

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10-23-2012, 05:07 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by saskriders View Post
Expansion fee to pay to MLSEL
Expansion fee wouldn't be enough....it hasn't been enough in the past.


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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
how 2011. there's a new pair of sheriff's in mlse town now, and they both have another side business called broadcast television. both would eagerly welcome another team for the content.

oh and fwiw, santa.
Like I said, nothing will happen unless MLSEL can make a profit. Your suggesting there might be a way for MLSEL to make a profit........ seems we are on the same page.

Still believe it when I see it, but now there is a slim chance compared to the no chance of the past.

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10-23-2012, 05:13 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
...disappointed to read youve bought into the NHL's propaganda hook, line & sinker danishh. Apparently even without the renovations & retrofits required it was better than "sufficient" for the Memorial Cup, World Junior Championships, the Calder Cup & of course the Canada Cup.... utter nonsense that Copps' is insufficient in any way whatsoever provided its brought up to date. Its a simple shell that wasnt completed, finished as the city wanted to make sure they'd landed a franchise before doing so. It was the first of its kind in North America of the generation of arenas' that followed from Ottawa to Vancouver. If Copps' is "unsuitable", then so too is the Roy Rogers & Scotiabank amongst others.
Well by being insufficient right now I think he is saying the arena is not up-to-date in terms of broadcast facilities, Corporate suites, club seats and possibly a few other things as well like NHL locker rooms.

I'm curious as to who will pay the $150 million or so it would take to update the facility. That always seems to be glossed over. I' have my doubts about the city council there considering they nearly bungled the Pan Am stadium and ended up with a rather mediocre facility (based on the rendering) at that.


Last edited by blueandgoldguy: 10-23-2012 at 05:18 PM. Reason: forgot to add word
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10-23-2012, 05:36 PM
  #48
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Actually, it says



I get what you're trying to do, but the OP has already covered that base. Let's not be intentionally obtuse, hm?

The OP edited their post. Previously, I'm almost certain it asked where in general, not just southern Ontario. That's what NathanSeguin was referring to.

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10-23-2012, 05:38 PM
  #49
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Hamilton.

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10-23-2012, 05:42 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Well by being insufficient right now I think he is saying the arena is not up-to-date in terms of broadcast facilities, Corporate suites, club seats and possibly a few other things as well like NHL locker rooms.

I'm curious as to who will pay the $150 million or so it would take to update the facility. That always seems to be glossed over. I' have my doubts about the city council there considering they nearly bungled the Pan Am stadium and ended up with a rather mediocre facility (based on the rendering) at that.
... yes, I understood what danissh was saying. What drives me insane is when people say that, they generally mean (as in the case of the NHL) that Copps "will never be good enough". The intimation & inference is quite clear. Runaway freight train. Well, Im not havin any of it.

Now, as for who pays the $150M-$200M in upgrades & renovations, really rather simple & straightforward requiring a minimum amount of money & interference from the City & or Province. First, you sell the naming rights to the building for 10yrs; the "Ice Surface" (see Yormark in Florida) Sponsorship; "Team & Game Presentation" Sponsorships. Then you sell "Seat Licences" to everyone who wants to buy Seasons Tickets (see ACC in Toronto). Get the Province & City to contribute $20M each out of their "Enterprise (infrastructure & business development) Fund" budgets to make them feel good about themselves & buy some votes.

Good to go. Or is it more prudent to drop $400M++ in Markham in a major P3?
No matter how you cut this thing, slice & dice it, Hamilton is a superior choice.

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