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HOF for 1980s Defensive Defensemen

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Old
10-22-2012, 01:36 PM
  #1
DickSmehlik
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HOF for 1980s Defensive Defensemen

Who do you include, regardless of their offensive abilities?

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10-22-2012, 01:57 PM
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seventieslord
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in no particular order:

Ray Bourque
Rod Langway
Bill Hajt
Mike Ramsey
Ken Morrow
Denis Potvin
Brad McCrimmon
Kevin Lowe
Charlie Huddy
Normand Rochefort

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10-22-2012, 02:53 PM
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ot92s
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langway, robinson, bourque, stevens, mccrimmon, lowe, kjell samuellson, ulf sammuellson, chelios, randy calysle, potvin, ken morrow, salming, frabtisek musil, phil russell, uwe krupp, ken daneyko

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10-22-2012, 03:10 PM
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MXD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
in no particular order:

Ray Bourque
Rod Langway
Bill Hajt
Mike Ramsey
Ken Morrow
Denis Potvin
Brad McCrimmon
Kevin Lowe
Charlie Huddy
Normand Rochefort
I'm pretty sure the OP wasn't "targetting" names like Bourque and Potvin (though they certainly deserve to be there by virtue of their defensive play)... Pretty good list, and to that one...

+ Brian Engblom had an unbelievable peak of defensive dominance. His 2nd AST, mainly gotten through defensive prowess, means he's getting. Possibly the best defensive peak, if that makes sense.

+ Some goalies will get in the HHOF by virtue of their huge pads, so why not make a parallel and admit Mr. Shinpads himself, Craig Ludwig?

+ If Bourque and Potvin can be in, then Borje Salming can as well. Not QUITE THAT SURE for Larry Robinson.

+ Since every HOF has some borderline inductees, why not admit Brad Marsh? Not terrible defensively at all (just not in the same group than the ones above), and pretty much a prototypical 80ies D-Men who was just very good amongst that very particular category of players.

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10-22-2012, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
in no particular order:

Ray Bourque
Rod Langway
Bill Hajt
Mike Ramsey
Ken Morrow
Denis Potvin
Brad McCrimmon
Kevin Lowe
Charlie Huddy
Normand Rochefort
Good list, might want to add Mark Howe and Rick Green, and also possibly Chris Chelios, Brian Engblom and James Patrick if they are considered to have played enough in the 80s.

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10-22-2012, 03:53 PM
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seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ot92s View Post
langway, robinson, bourque, stevens, mccrimmon, lowe, kjell samuellson, ulf sammuellson, chelios, randy calysle, potvin, ken morrow, salming, frabtisek musil, phil russell, uwe krupp, ken daneyko
The Samuelssons, Daneyko and Chelios would be 90s defensemen based on peaks and when the majority of their careers were played. Daneyko I wouldnít consider anyway, I donít think.

Iíve never seen anything that suggests Phil Russell was particularly good defensively. Not that he was bad, but seems more like a really rich manís Dan McGillis.

Same with Carlyle, he was good but not elite; not a guy Iíd even think of naming if I were just trying to name 10-12 from the decade.

Musil? Good for a 3rd pairing guy, I guess.

Krupp? Thatís news to me.

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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I'm pretty sure the OP wasn't "targetting" names like Bourque and Potvin (though they certainly deserve to be there by virtue of their defensive play)... Pretty good list, and to that one...

+ Brian Engblom had an unbelievable peak of defensive dominance. His 2nd AST, mainly gotten through defensive prowess, means he's getting. Possibly the best defensive peak, if that makes sense.
I seriously considered him but in the end left him off. The 2nd AST is nice, but Iím not seeing numbers that support this peak being at all maintained.

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+ Some goalies will get in the HHOF by virtue of their huge pads, so why not make a parallel and admit Mr. Shinpads himself, Craig Ludwig?
I considered him 90s.

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+ If Bourque and Potvin can be in, then Borje Salming can as well. Not QUITE THAT SURE for Larry Robinson.
I agree. I thought really hard about Salming before leaving him off. Robinson, not quite as hard.

Quote:
+ Since every HOF has some borderline inductees, why not admit Brad Marsh? Not terrible defensively at all (just not in the same group than the ones above), and pretty much a prototypical 80ies D-Men who was just very good amongst that very particular category of players.
I figured he was good but not great. My opinion might be tainted my 1988-1993 memories though.

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Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
Good list, might want to add Mark Howe and Rick Green, and also possibly Chris Chelios, Brian Engblom and James Patrick if they are considered to have played enough in the 80s.
I know Howe had the awesome +/- and Iím one of his biggest fans, but my impression is that he wasnít THAT polished defensively. I think his specialty was puck possession at ES. You could argue that that is a defensive skill too, though.

Green I have mixed feelings about. I am old enough to remember the days when he was considered a really ďsolid, underrated defensive guyĒ but in the early 80s scouting reports indicated he was pretty suspect defensively and by the time he had improved his skills, he was a #4-5 guy so itís not like he was a heavy minutes, best matchups kind of guy. Overall I didnít think he was quite up with the rest of those guys.

Patrick was known as a very solid 3rd pairing veteran late in his career, but wasnít he mostly an offensive guy in the 80s? In any case, given that his career midpoint was 1994, Iíd be inclined to call him a 1990s defenseman.

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Old
10-22-2012, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I know Howe had the awesome +/- and Iím one of his biggest fans, but my impression is that he wasnít THAT polished defensively. I think his specialty was puck possession at ES. You could argue that that is a defensive skill too, though.
By his absolute peak Howe was quite effective defensively. As far as puck possession, I would definitely argue that it makes him very valuable defensively. The purpose of defence is goal prevention, and doing it in a way that is more difficult to visually appraise is still just as valuable.

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Green I have mixed feelings about. I am old enough to remember the days when he was considered a really ďsolid, underrated defensive guyĒ but in the early 80s scouting reports indicated he was pretty suspect defensively and by the time he had improved his skills, he was a #4-5 guy so itís not like he was a heavy minutes, best matchups kind of guy. Overall I didnít think he was quite up with the rest of those guys.
Ehhh fair enough I suppose, I don't know if he's above any of the guys you listed.

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Patrick was known as a very solid 3rd pairing veteran late in his career, but wasnít he mostly an offensive guy in the 80s? In any case, given that his career midpoint was 1994, Iíd be inclined to call him a 1990s defenseman.
Patrick was defensively valuable in a similar way to Howe, but not to the same degree clearly I consider a fair number of his best years to have been in the 80s, but after actually looking at how long he played he has to be a 90s guy.

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10-22-2012, 04:56 PM
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Top 5, in the order I'd draft them:

1) Bourque
2) Robinson
3) Stevens
4) Langway
5) Mccrimmon

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10-22-2012, 05:00 PM
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Larry Robinson definitely needs to be considered. His offense left him after the dynasty years, but his defense didn't really.

My HHOF includes non-NHL Europeans, so I'd include Slava Fetisov, Alexei Kasatonov, and Zinetula Bilyaletdinov

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10-22-2012, 05:12 PM
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Two other names to add to the mix, though both would probably fall short of a HOF:

--Jamie Macoun was an excellent (and underrated) defensive defensemen in the '80s. He helped anchored the Flames' top pairing--MacInnis could sometimes be a bit of an adventure, especially early on--and was terrific in the playoffs.

--Craig Hartsburg was a terrific defender at both ends of the rink when healthy and was good enough to get selected to two Canada Cups in the '80s. Injuries were really the main thing holding him back, which was a shame.

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10-22-2012, 05:20 PM
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seventieslord
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Macoun I definitely considered, but in the end I had to consider him a 90s guy.

Also, forgot to mention, but with Scott Stevens, with a career midpoint of 1994, he has to be a 90s guy, plus his 1980s defensive play doesn't warrant serious consideration here, either.

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10-23-2012, 06:19 AM
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I'll add BŲrje Salming and Ramage to that list.

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Old
10-23-2012, 06:57 AM
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ted1971
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
in no particular order:

Ray Bourque
Rod Langway
Bill Hajt
Mike Ramsey
Ken Morrow
Denis Potvin
Brad McCrimmon
Kevin Lowe
Charlie Huddy
Normand Rochefort
Bill Hajt? Really? To Me, He just screams average at best.

The same with Normand Rochefort. He really only had maybe 1 great season.


Last edited by ted1971: 10-23-2012 at 07:03 AM.
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Old
10-23-2012, 09:18 AM
  #14
seventieslord
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Bill Hajt? Really? To Me, He just screams average at best.

The same with Normand Rochefort. He really only had maybe 1 great season.
Bill Hajt was very highly regarded as a defensive player and he has incredible GA stats to prove it as well.

Rochefort was considered good enough to get onto the 1987 Canada Cup team and it wasn't because of his offense.

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Old
10-23-2012, 09:27 AM
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DickSmehlik
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What about Garth Butcher, Dave Manson, Dana Murzyn or Craig Muni? Didn't follow hockey during that decade.

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10-23-2012, 10:27 AM
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seventieslord
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What about Garth Butcher, Dave Manson, Dana Murzyn or Craig Muni? Didn't follow hockey during that decade.
Garth Butcher was pretty good, but it's a toss up whether he should be called an 80s or 90s defenseman. i think his prime was 89-93, so I'd lean towards the latter. I also wouldn't personally think of him if we were just looking to name 10-12 names but that's just me.

Manson at his best was more of a tough guy with a big slapper, not necessarily great at raw defensive skills. He's actually gotten underrated over the years though, IMO. I'd also call him a 90s guy as he played that whole decade.

Murzyn is a guy with excellent defensive stats but Canucks fans seem to all agree he was horrible.

Muni is an excellent choice. The only thing is he'd probably count for the 90s. His prime was around 89-93 and at that time he was called one of the best pure defensive defenseman in the NHL.

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10-23-2012, 02:59 PM
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Anyone who thinks that Larry Robinson doesn't belong is just being contrary.....from the mid-70's to the mid 80's he had few peers.

Of those defensive defensemen from that era that aren't already in the HoF, I'd consider:
- Brad McCrimmon
- Mike Ramsey
- (maybe) Doug Wilson
- (maybe) Jamie Macoun

Those in the HoVG:
- Mike O'Connell
- Brad Marsh
- Craig Ludwig
- Bill Hajt
- Gordie Roberts
- Kevin Lowe
- Ken Morrow

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10-23-2012, 03:02 PM
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Murzyn is a guy with excellent defensive stats but Canucks fans seem to all agree he was horrible.
Do they? That seems wrong. He was the main defensive guy on our top pairing for five or six years in a row. That's far from horrible!

As for the thread: Murzyn was probably a step or two below the elite defensive defenders of the era just because he was so freaking slow, but his positioning was always excellent and he was an absolutely vicious player in front of the crease. Think there's a quote from Gretzky somewhere about how much everyone hated playing against Murzyn, but can't find it, sadly.

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10-23-2012, 03:03 PM
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Garth Butcher was pretty good, but it's a toss up whether he should be called an 80s or 90s defenseman. i think his prime was 89-93, so I'd lean towards the latter. I also wouldn't personally think of him if we were just looking to name 10-12 names but that's just me.

Manson at his best was more of a tough guy with a big slapper, not necessarily great at raw defensive skills. He's actually gotten underrated over the years though, IMO. I'd also call him a 90s guy as he played that whole decade.

Murzyn is a guy with excellent defensive stats but Canucks fans seem to all agree he was horrible.

Muni is an excellent choice. The only thing is he'd probably count for the 90s. His prime was around 89-93 and at that time he was called one of the best pure defensive defenseman in the NHL.
Hm, Muni, would be a good choice....

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10-23-2012, 03:05 PM
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If you read the game By Ken Dryden he writes a less than rosy picture of Larry Robinson in terms of his play.Robison was a hof player and a good guy but maybe not as good that some think he was.

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10-23-2012, 03:19 PM
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If you read the game By Ken Dryden he writes a less than rosy picture of Larry Robinson in terms of his play.Robison was a hof player and a good guy but maybe not as good that some think he was.
He seemed to praise Robinson quite a bit in the copy that I read, talking about the massive impact he had both on the Canadiens and their opponents.

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10-23-2012, 03:55 PM
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Anyone who thinks that Larry Robinson doesn't belong is just being contrary.....from the mid-70's to the mid 80's he had few peers.
Not sure about that. 1986 was considered a ďresurgenceĒ for him for a reason.

He was #1 in three straight polls for best defensive defenseman, but that was 77, 78, and 79. I think he has a great case as one of the best defensive defensemen of the seventies.

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Of those defensive defensemen from that era that aren't already in the HoF, I'd consider:
- Brad McCrimmon
- Mike Ramsey
- (maybe) Doug Wilson
- (maybe) Jamie Macoun

Those in the HoVG:
- Mike O'Connell
- Brad Marsh
- Craig Ludwig
- Bill Hajt
- Gordie Roberts
- Kevin Lowe
- Ken Morrow
The bolded wouldnít make it on defense alone, though, would they? It seems their primary value was on offense.

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Do they? That seems wrong. He was the main defensive guy on our top pairing for five or six years in a row. That's far from horrible!

As for the thread: Murzyn was probably a step or two below the elite defensive defenders of the era just because he was so freaking slow, but his positioning was always excellent and he was an absolutely vicious player in front of the crease. Think there's a quote from Gretzky somewhere about how much everyone hated playing against Murzyn, but can't find it, sadly.
Iím only deferring to the Canucks fans when I say that. You should search his name in the HOH section and see what you find. I know a few have been super critical and it kinda changed my mind on him.

BTW, which 5-6 years are you talking about, and who played with him on the top pairing? I donít recall the TOI figures saying that he played all that much.

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10-23-2012, 05:02 PM
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BTW, which 5-6 years are you talking about, and who played with him on the top pairing? I donít recall the TOI figures saying that he played all that much.
My recollection is that between 1991 and 1996, Murzyn and Jyrki Lumme were the Canucks' top even-strength pairing, though I'd be curious to know what the time-on-ice figures show. (The one caveat here is that Murzyn obviously didn't see a lot of power play time, so his overall TOI numbers might be a bit lower.)

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10-23-2012, 06:19 PM
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Anyone who thinks that Larry Robinson doesn't belong is just being contrary.....from the mid-70's to the mid 80's he had few peers.
Not sure about that. 1986 was considered a “resurgence” for him for a reason.

He was #1 in three straight polls for best defensive defenseman, but that was 77, 78, and 79. I think he has a great case as one of the best defensive defensemen of the seventies.
He had a couple of "average" years 83-84- / 84-85...one of them was a season of Montreal turmoil when Bob Berry got fired, he may have been hurt, I don't know, but either way, his "average" year is still better than 95% of most defensemen who ever played those seasons.

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Of those defensive defensemen from that era that aren't already in the HoF, I'd consider:
- Brad McCrimmon
- Mike Ramsey
- (maybe) Doug Wilson
- (maybe) Jamie Macoun

Those in the HoVG:
- Mike O'Connell
- Brad Marsh
- Craig Ludwig
- Bill Hajt
- Gordie Roberts
- Kevin Lowe
- Ken Morrow

The bolded wouldn’t make it on defense alone, though, would they? It seems their primary value was on offense.
That may be, and it also helps when you have a Bourque, Park, Hartsburg, etc.... as defensive mates. They played on some strong teams and they were known for their offense but they weren't slouches on defense either. They may not have paid attention to their end of the ice as they should've and probably caught up ice more than a few times but they weren't 3rd pairing / make-you-nervous defensively either, taking care of business efficiently enough when called upon.

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10-23-2012, 06:41 PM
  #25
vadim sharifijanov
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to respond to a couple of names thrown around:

james patrick, i thought was defensively below average until he went to buffalo. i'm mostly thinking early 90s patrick, as i have no recollection of ever watching him in the 80s.

dana murzyn was awful. the defensive beasts on those '89 flames were mccrimmon and macoun. on the '94 canucks, you're looking at diduck and post-injury babych. murzyn has glamorous +/- stats because he was a guy that played easy minutes on high powered teams. and to look at his career you'd think he was the defensive rock that you paired with an offensive guy, but he was actually carried defensively by ramage and lumme.

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