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NHL to Expand 2 teams in Canada - THN

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10-22-2012, 07:36 PM
  #726
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Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
That doesn't matter. Divisions are to serve the league's interest, not serve the map.

#1 - They're moving towards a four-division setup: It's probable for the next season we play in; and practically definite if they add two teams.

#2 - In a six-division setup, the Predators would rather be in the Central and have 10 road games at 7 pm in Nashville than be in the Southeast and have two.

#3 - DET or CBJ wouldn't blink twice about joining the Southeast Division, despite being geographically out of place. They'd welcome having 32 road games start at 7 pm in their hometown instead of 12. In fact, I believe both offered to swap with WIN straight up for last season.
That's not what I've heard: I've heard that they'd rather be in the East.

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10-22-2012, 07:38 PM
  #727
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That's not what I've heard: I've heard that they'd rather be in the East.
Even then, no way they get that over CBJ or DET (Or Hamilton/Markham if they were added).

We've got 16 ETZ teams and 14 in the CT/MT/PT zones. Only way Nashville goes to the East is if there's a radical realignment similar to a MLB style.

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10-22-2012, 07:45 PM
  #728
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That's not what I've heard: I've heard that they'd rather be in the East.
the reason they want to be east is the same reason why Tampa and Florida were in the realigned division with the NE is snowbirds and expats

I live in Tennessee but I'm originally from Buffalo and every time the sabres come to Nashville I go to see them and half the arena is filled with Sabres fans and the building is not only sold out but before and after the game the Sabres fans make a party of it spending all sorts of money downtown, now that only happens once every two years, now imagine that will all NE teams multiple times a year, lots of money

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10-22-2012, 07:49 PM
  #729
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Even then, no way they get that over CBJ or DET (Or Hamilton/Markham if they were added).

We've got 16 ETZ teams and 14 in the CT/MT/PT zones. Only way Nashville goes to the East is if there's a radical realignment similar to a MLB style.
Personally, I'd prefer Hamilton to be in the Central: The later the game, the better.

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10-22-2012, 07:51 PM
  #730
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the reason they want to be east is the same reason why Tampa and Florida were in the realigned division with the NE is snowbirds and expats

I live in Tennessee but I'm originally from Buffalo and every time the sabres come to Nashville I go to see them and half the arena is filled with Sabres fans and the building is not only sold out but before and after the game the Sabres fans make a party of it spending all sorts of money downtown, now that only happens once every two years, now imagine that will all NE teams multiple times a year, lots of money
What wrong with that? That seems like a positive to the Preds playing in the East to me.

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10-22-2012, 07:57 PM
  #731
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What wrong with that? That seems like a positive to the Preds playing in the East to me.
That benefits the Preds, but the Jackets would get the TV start time benefit.

However for the Wild, Jets, Stars, Blackhawks and Blues, it would be better if CBJ left the division instead of Nashville.

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10-22-2012, 08:26 PM
  #732
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If Columbus has a rivalry with Pittsburgh, it's entirely one-sided.
Columbus may not yet have a rivalry with Pittsburgh, but it should really have the chance to develop such a rivalry. One could argue that the rivalry is there to be had with Detroit if the Blue Jackets could ever be competitive to establish the rivalry, but the truth is that Detroit is the most multi-rivaled team in the League... everyone wants a piece of Detroit (not the least of which: Chicago, Nashville, St Louis, San Jose, Anaheim, Toronto, etc). Pittsburgh also has its rivals (not the least Philadelphia), but there is a much greater potential for Columbus with Pittsburgh than with Detroit.
As for Nashville, if alignment presented the opportunity, a rivalry with Carolina would be a natural fit, but not significantly much more than with St Louis (and of course there's the TZ question, though that's a seriously minor point).

In truth, all of those teams, Columbus, Detroit, Nashville, hell even Chicago (or even all CTZ teams), should be in the East with an East-West divide, but that can't be. That's why I always say that the East-West divide shouldn't be.

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10-22-2012, 08:35 PM
  #733
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As for Nashville, if alignment presented the opportunity, a rivalry with Carolina would be a natural fit, but not significantly much more than with St Louis (and of course there's the TZ question, though that's a seriously minor point).
Nashville and Raleigh really don't have any relation at all, the states share a border, but Tennessee aligns/rivals much more with Kentucky, Georgia and Alabama. Detroit is just as close to Nashville as Raleigh is, and you don't have to go over the tallest mountains on the east coast either. Being in a division with Atlanta would certainly have been the best chance at a true geographic rivalry.

Drive time from Nashville:

Atlanta - 4 hours
St. Louis - 5 1/2 hours
Columbus - 6 hours
Chicago - 8 hours
Detroit - 8 1/2 hours
Raleigh - 8 1/2 hours
Pittsburgh - 9 1/2 hours
Dallas - 10 hours

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10-22-2012, 08:58 PM
  #734
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 View Post
Nashville and Raleigh really don't have any relation at all, the states share a border, but Tennessee aligns/rivals much more with Kentucky, Georgia and Alabama. Detroit is just as close to Nashville as Raleigh is, and you don't have to go over the tallest mountains on the east coast either. Being in a division with Atlanta would certainly have been the best chance at a true geographic rivalry.

Drive time from Nashville:

Atlanta - 4 hours
St. Louis - 5 1/2 hours
Columbus - 6 hours
Chicago - 8 hours
Detroit - 8 1/2 hours
Raleigh - 8 1/2 hours
Pittsburgh - 9 1/2 hours
Dallas - 10 hours
Fine. I was primarily considering the bordering state angle. But as you pointed out... How much different might Atlanta's scenario have been if Nashville and Atlanta had not only been in the same Conference but the same Division. Still doesn't change the fact that the Thrashers' owners didn't care about the team.

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10-22-2012, 09:16 PM
  #735
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Fine. I was primarily considering the bordering state angle. But as you pointed out... How much different might Atlanta's scenario have been if Nashville and Atlanta had not only been in the same Conference but the same Division. Still doesn't change the fact that the Thrashers' owners didn't care about the team.
Right, they got a raw deal there. Nothing was going to save them because ASG didn't want them. Shame really.

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10-22-2012, 10:21 PM
  #736
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No kidding people will drive from Vancouver BC to see their team play seattle in seattle cause it so darn hard to get tickets for a Canuck home game.
Just to go back to this, I think it's a very pivotal point.

What we'd have with Seattle is a catalyst for a possible rivalry with Vancouver that could strengthen BOTH markets. Nothing boosts fan interest like a good strong rivalry, and there's something about hockey rivalries that make them an even bigger draw. Vancouver's rivalry slate is pretty bare right now and if the Seattle franchise becomes successful quickly enough to put a real dent in Canuck complacency in the early stages, you could get a nice healthy hate going on pretty quickly. That's why Seattle is the place I'd relocate the Yotes. Give that rivalry a shot in the arm right from the getgo, to really get things going. The Yotes team isn't flashy, but they're a competent team that can play an opposing squad very hard on a good night, and it'd create an instant rivalry of a type, and hopefully a level, that really doesn't exist in that division right now.

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10-22-2012, 10:32 PM
  #737
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Just to go back to this, I think it's a very pivotal point.

What we'd have with Seattle is a catalyst for a possible rivalry with Vancouver that could strengthen BOTH markets. Nothing boosts fan interest like a good strong rivalry, and there's something about hockey rivalries that make them an even bigger draw. Vancouver's rivalry slate is pretty bare right now and if the Seattle franchise becomes successful quickly enough to put a real dent in Canuck complacency in the early stages, you could get a nice healthy hate going on pretty quickly. That's why Seattle is the place I'd relocate the Yotes. Give that rivalry a shot in the arm right from the getgo, to really get things going. The Yotes team isn't flashy, but they're a competent team that can play an opposing squad very hard on a good night, and it'd create an instant rivalry of a type, and hopefully a level, that really doesn't exist in that division right now.
Indeed. Now if this results in portland getting a NHL team and this is true for MLS. Seattle hockey fans can continue the tread of the "Your in cause of us " Chant that sounders fans do to the Portland Timber fans.

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10-22-2012, 11:33 PM
  #738
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I would be happy with Quebec and Hamilton Just think, Quebec-Montreal would be a huge rival just like Hamilton and Toronto would be a huge rival just like teams in ahl and cfl..

The reason why i say one will be Hamilton is because Comcast who owns Philly Flyers their affil tv station now runs copps, hamilton place so i could see Hamilton possible getting a NHL team that is another reason why this Hamilton AHL thing is taking forever to extend a lease agreement

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10-22-2012, 11:45 PM
  #739
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I don't think there will be a team in southern ontario for a very long time. It's a favorite speculative target for a certain brand of fan and media person who doesn't like to admit that anything south of Windsor or so actually exists, but the reality is that there's better markets with stronger identities out there, and a maple leaf isn't the financial panacea people like to dream it is.

I could see a second team in Toronto, not unlike the Ducks/Kings or the Isles/Rangers, before I saw a team out there along the southern fringes of the GTA. If you're going to try to compete directly with the Leafs for fans, you're better off doing it from the GTA itself, and not from a satellite city.

when it comes to that, I'm not exactly sure why it's an article of faith that QC will be successful in the modern hockey era. Sure they had a team back when the Whalers were viable, but it seems to me that with a place like QC where the market is enthusiastic, yes, but ultimately rather small you're rolling too high on saturating the market, and if the economy hits the skids there's no "give." No way to grow the market past the crisis leaves Canadian teams pretty exposed when the bad times hit. An American market with some wiggle room might just be able to pull new people in and weather the storm. Everyone you can pull in in Canada is already there. That was what doomed QUE1 and WPG1, and if it doomed WPG2 and the speculative QUE2 sometime 10-15 years from now it would come as no particular shock to me.


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10-23-2012, 12:31 AM
  #740
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Here's hoping for an NHL team in Yellowknife or Whitehorse.

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10-23-2012, 03:22 AM
  #741
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I don't think there will be a team in southern ontario for a very long time. It's a favorite speculative target for a certain brand of fan and media person who doesn't like to admit that anything south of Windsor or so actually exists, but the reality is that there's better markets with stronger identities out there, and a maple leaf isn't the financial panacea people like to dream it is.

I could see a second team in Toronto, not unlike the Ducks/Kings or the Isles/Rangers, before I saw a team out there along the southern fringes of the GTA. If you're going to try to compete directly with the Leafs for fans, you're better off doing it from the GTA itself, and not from a satellite city.


when it comes to that, I'm not exactly sure why it's an article of faith that QC will be successful in the modern hockey era. Sure they had a team back when the Whalers were viable, but it seems to me that with a place like QC where the market is enthusiastic, yes, but ultimately rather small you're rolling too high on saturating the market, and if the economy hits the skids there's no "give." No way to grow the market past the crisis leaves Canadian teams pretty exposed when the bad times hit. An American market with some wiggle room might just be able to pull new people in and weather the storm. Everyone you can pull in in Canada is already there. That was what doomed QUE1 and WPG1, and if it doomed WPG2 and the speculative QUE2 sometime 10-15 years from now it would come as no particular shock to me.
Huh? Markham is in the Greater Toronto Area. The city borders Toronto to the northeast. Hamilton, meanwhile, you are correct in saying it is a satellite city but not in the conventional sense. One could drive from downtown Hamilton to downtown Toronto without leaving urbanity. Hamilton's eastern-most suburb doubles as Toronto's western-most.

Here's a map of the area with locations of the ACC, Markham Arena site, and Copps marked:

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10-23-2012, 12:48 PM
  #742
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Columbus may not yet have a rivalry with Pittsburgh, but it should really have the chance to develop such a rivalry. One could argue that the rivalry is there to be had with Detroit if the Blue Jackets could ever be competitive to establish the rivalry, but the truth is that Detroit is the most multi-rivaled team in the League... everyone wants a piece of Detroit (not the least of which: Chicago, Nashville, St Louis, San Jose, Anaheim, Toronto, etc). Pittsburgh also has its rivals (not the least Philadelphia), but there is a much greater potential for Columbus with Pittsburgh than with Detroit.
As for Nashville, if alignment presented the opportunity, a rivalry with Carolina would be a natural fit, but not significantly much more than with St Louis (and of course there's the TZ question, though that's a seriously minor point).

In truth, all of those teams, Columbus, Detroit, Nashville, hell even Chicago (or even all CTZ teams), should be in the East with an East-West divide, but that can't be. That's why I always say that the East-West divide shouldn't be.
No doubt, I'm just saying that Columbus' wishes aren't going to take top billing for when the NHL eventually realigns. They're going to be much more interested in keeping Detroit in the West for the road draw they have for a bunch of other teams and they aren't going to break up Atlantic rivalries under any circumstance.

If a team is booted East, I think it will be Columbus, if only because nobody besides maybe Detroit would object, and then they'd be plunked in haphazardly with the Southeastern teams rather than the Atlantic teams even if it makes less geographic sense.

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10-23-2012, 04:44 PM
  #743
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I'm not sure what people use for maps and directions but just typed in Hamilton Ontario to Buffalo NY on Mapquest and if it is indeed 50 KM its 116.41 KM from Hamilton to Buffalo to Hamilton doesn't have to worry about Buffalo pretty much just Toronto

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10-23-2012, 04:52 PM
  #744
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Indeed. Now if this results in portland getting a NHL team and this is true for MLS. Seattle hockey fans can continue the tread of the "Your in cause of us " Chant that sounders fans do to the Portland Timber fans.
That's awesome. I wish the LA Dodger fans would do that to the SF Giants.

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I'm not sure what people use for maps and directions but just typed in Hamilton Ontario to Buffalo NY on Mapquest and if it is indeed 50 KM its 116.41 KM from Hamilton to Buffalo to Hamilton doesn't have to worry about Buffalo pretty much just Toronto
It's not driving distance, it's radius. As the crow flies.

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10-23-2012, 05:01 PM
  #745
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As the crow flies.
Yepp. "As the Crow Flies". This Land shall be yours for as Long as the Great Pines Stand, the Mighty Buffalo Roam its plains, for as long as the Sun rises in the East and sets in the West. For as long as.... like it was lifted from Treaty #4 between the Cree Nation & the Crown.

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10-23-2012, 05:02 PM
  #746
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Huh? Markham is in the Greater Toronto Area. The city borders Toronto to the northeast. Hamilton, meanwhile, you are correct in saying it is a satellite city but not in the conventional sense. One could drive from downtown Hamilton to downtown Toronto without leaving urbanity. Hamilton's eastern-most suburb doubles as Toronto's western-most.

Here's a map of the area with locations of the ACC, Markham Arena site, and Copps marked:
Plus, Census Canada determines CMAs and CSAs differently than the US. Toronto-Hamilton is comparable to Dallas-Fort Worth, New York-Newark, etc. In the US, Hamilton would definitely be considered a suburb of Toronto. Even within the region, the term GTHA (Greater Toronto - Hamilton Area) is gaining some traction among people working in the municipality governments of the communities that constitute the region.

BTW, I think a team would work better in Markham, but I'm just pointing that out.

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10-23-2012, 05:04 PM
  #747
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I'm not sure what people use for maps and directions but just typed in Hamilton Ontario to Buffalo NY on Mapquest and if it is indeed 50 KM its 116.41 KM from Hamilton to Buffalo to Hamilton doesn't have to worry about Buffalo pretty much just Toronto
I believe it's 50 miles, not 50 km.

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10-23-2012, 05:13 PM
  #748
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well i used mapquest.ca so it shows km not miles

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10-23-2012, 07:11 PM
  #749
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I believe it's 50 miles, not 50 km.
For comparison's sake, I believe that's roughly the distance between Washington and Baltimore (~41 miles), and those two markets are ALWAYS butting heads and resenting each other's existence -- the battle for media rights has been a tempestuous one across multiple professional sports between those two markets. And those are bigger and stronger markets than the Buffalo Sabres have to work with.

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10-23-2012, 08:28 PM
  #750
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For comparison's sake, I believe that's roughly the distance between Washington and Baltimore (~41 miles), and those two markets are ALWAYS butting heads and resenting each other's existence -- the battle for media rights has been a tempestuous one across multiple professional sports between those two markets. And those are bigger and stronger markets than the Buffalo Sabres have to work with.
Interestingly enough, the deal that brought the Expos to Washington involved the Orioles and Nationals sharing TV rights (similar to what's being proposed for a Hamilton or Markham or both team and Rogers/Bell).

The Orioles TV network was renamed Mid-Atlantic Sports Network, the Nationals started at a 10% ownership stake, and receive 1% more per year up to 33%. And MASN has to give the Nationals the same rights fee they give the Orioles.

Of course, now they are fighting about that rights fee. Because the Orioles own 83% of MASN, they can give the Orioles a low rights fee, the Nats the same fee, and horde the profits thru MASN instead of the baseball club.

Under the Rogers/Bell conspiracy theory -- which may or may not exist outside my head -- MLSE cedes Hamilton as their territory to get NHL approval on the sale in exchange for third-tier TV rights to a new franchise.

Ultimately, I think the best solution to our TOR/BUF/HAM/Markham problem is a complex four-way split of the Sabres, Hamilton, Markham and Leafs TV rights.

The Sabres could get a cut of any Hamilton second and third-tier TV revenues that exceed their own; Rogers and Bell each get free third tier rights to all three Canadian franchises in Southern Ontario.

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