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The All Purpose Luongo Thread (MOD WARNING IN OP)

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Old
10-23-2012, 10:45 PM
  #76
Peter Griffin
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If not Finn, what about Blacker? Being a RH'ed shooting defender he could be a more coveted piece for Gillis anyway.

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10-23-2012, 10:50 PM
  #77
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If not Finn, what about Blacker? Being a RH'ed shooting defender he could be a more coveted piece for Gillis anyway.
I like Blacker but Finn's upside is higher.

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Old
10-23-2012, 10:51 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Lupul, Sbisa and 2 firsts + a conditional pick

I just don't feel Toronto, or Florida for that matter, is a real fit.
Lupul was a cap dump in that deal, Sbisa isn't much to write home about, is he? I think these deals are a lot closer than you think.

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Old
10-23-2012, 10:56 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Bozak, Colborne, Frattin, Finn.

Let's do it.

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Old
10-23-2012, 11:02 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Lupul was a cap dump in that deal, Sbisa isn't much to write home about, is he? I think these deals are a lot closer than you think.
Sbisa was a top prospect at the time, he immediately became ANA's top prospect following the trade.

Lupul
Sbisa
1st
1st
Cond


Lupul at the time was also considered a very young (healthy) 50+ point second liner.

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10-23-2012, 11:04 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
We're trying to have a mature discussion about what a fair package could be that addresses our needs. Your laughter adds nothing intelligent. I believe it's been thoroughly proven that no, Luongo's contract isn't an albatross, yes, there is a market, and yes, Luongo is still a great goaltender depite the fact we're trading him.

If you're not even willing to pony up a quantity-for-quality trade that bears some semblance to meeting our needs, Luongo is not for you.

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10-23-2012, 11:04 PM
  #82
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You guys are not getting Frattin + another roster player + top prospect + draft pick for Lu.

Frattin scored 24 goals in 36 AHL games last season as a 24 year old.

He'll be a solid 2nd line power winger for a long time. I wouldn't give him up for Luongo, let alone 3 other valuable assets.

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Old
10-23-2012, 11:07 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Lupul at the time was also considered a very young (healthy) 50+ point second liner.
4.2m was pretty steep for a 50 point second liner at the time, no?

Even if he wasn't a cap dump, you have to look at the Canucks not taking on salary in that deal an added bonus.


Last edited by Scurr: 10-23-2012 at 11:16 PM.
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Old
10-23-2012, 11:09 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
You guys are not getting Frattin + another roster player + top prospect + draft pick for Lu.

Frattin scored 24 goals in 36 AHL games last season as a 24 year old.

He'll be a solid 2nd line power winger for a long time. I wouldn't give him up for Luongo, let alone 3 other valuable assets.
Luckily most of your fellow Leafs fans, and presumably Burke too, feel Luongo is vastly superior to the player Frattin is, and ever will be.

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Old
10-23-2012, 11:14 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Luckily most of your fellow Leafs fans, and presumably Burke too, feel Luongo is vastly superior to the player Frattin is, and ever will be.
Luongo will end up having a better career, most likely.

But I'm not trading Matt Frattin+ for a Luongo that will be 39 years old and getting a $6.714M salary. Yes, the cap hit will be $5.3M but if you have someone in the fold to take over the #1 role, there's unlikely to be a market for a has-been goalie with that kind of income.

Bozak
Blacker/D'Amigo
Ashton
2nd rounder

... for Luongo + Hansen.

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Old
10-23-2012, 11:17 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
Luongo will end up having a better career, most likely.

But I'm not trading Matt Frattin+ for a Luongo that will be 39 years old and getting a $6.714M salary. Yes, the cap hit will be $5.3M but if you have someone in the fold to take over the #1 role, there's unlikely to be a market for a has-been goalie with that kind of income.
Yes, there will be, because even if you're assuming he won't retire, the Leafs can pay up to 3 million dollars of his salary, making him a very tempting backup option to cap floor teams like the Islanders or Florida. Management can tell him he's either being traded to Florida or he can retire or he can be sent to the minors and rot until he changes his mind.

And there's no way we add Hansen to any Luongo deal.

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10-23-2012, 11:25 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
4.2m was pretty steep for a 50 point second liner at the time, no?

Even if he wasn't a cap dump, you have to look at the Canucks not taking on salary in that deal an added bonus.
Either way:

Lupul
Sbisa
1st
1st
Cond pick

is pretty close to

Bozak (cheap 45pt player)
Frattin (cheap roster player)
Colborne (worth a late 1st?)
Ashton (maybe worth a 2nd?)

The difference in the value of packages also come close to the difference between Luongo and Pronger's ability/contract.

Ultimately like I said it will come down to the "futures" part of the package.

Maybe Gillis will push for a Finn or a Kadri. Or maybe Gillis doesn't like any of TO's prospects and instead he pushes for their 1st rounder.

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Old
10-23-2012, 11:30 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
Bozak
Blacker/D'Amigo
Ashton
2nd rounder

... for Luongo + Hansen.
LOL. So the Canucks give up the two most valuable assets in the deal? Get real.

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Old
10-23-2012, 11:30 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Yes, there will be, because even if you're assuming he won't retire, the Leafs can pay up to 3 million dollars of his salary, making him a very tempting backup option to cap floor teams like the Islanders or Florida. Management can tell him he's either being traded to Florida or he can retire or he can be sent to the minors and rot until he changes his mind.

And there's no way we add Hansen to any Luongo deal.
Why deal with that kind of headache with a 39 year old headache, while Frattin is 30 years old and in his prime. If you've watched Frattin in the NCAA, AHL and NHL, you'd know what type of player he is and how valuable he will likely be to Toronto.

You're not getting him.

Most Toronto fans will tell you they would be very hesitant to move Frattin for Luongo, if they knew the ultimate situation it would put the club in.

- A 39 year old making $6.7M
- You have to convince him to either retire or be traded
- You have to take on about $7M for the remainder of his contract

You'll get quality pieces but you're not getting these guys...

Nazem Kadri
Matt Frattin
Tyler Biggs
Matt Finn
Morgan Rielly
Nikolai Kulemin
Joffrey Lupul
James van Riemsdyk
Jake Gardiner
Carl Gunnarsson
Dion Phaneuf

You have other options...

Jesse Blacker
Stuart Percy
Carter Ashton
Jerry D'Amigo
Bradley Ross
Greg McKegg
Joe Colborne
Korbinian Holzer
Clarke MacArthur
Tyler Bozak
John-Michael Liles

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Old
10-23-2012, 11:32 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post

You'll get quality pieces but you're not getting these guys...
For who you're offering maybe look at acquiring a Hiller/Anderson/Crawford calibre goalie?

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Old
10-23-2012, 11:32 PM
  #91
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So...Kessel straight up then, or I guess it's no deal.

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10-23-2012, 11:34 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post

... for Luongo + Hansen.
I wouldnt give up Hansen for any player in the leafs organization.

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Old
10-23-2012, 11:34 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
For who you're offering maybe look at acquiring a Hiller/Anderson/Crawford calibre goalie?
I'd rather have either Hiller or Anderson at that price than Luongo.

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Old
10-23-2012, 11:36 PM
  #94
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Reading the offers Leafs fans have presented has made my demands for Luongo higher, oddly enough. Must be reverse psychology.

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10-23-2012, 11:37 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
I'd rather have either Hiller or Anderson at that price than Luongo.
That's a very fair outlook.

Maybe try proposing that as a deal? Of course it might be that none of those goalies are available.

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10-23-2012, 11:37 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Lupul was a cap dump in that deal, Sbisa isn't much to write home about, is he? I think these deals are a lot closer than you think.
Perhaps you're right, but he was still a young 20ish goal scorer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Sbisa was a top prospect at the time, he immediately became ANA's top prospect following the trade.

Lupul
Sbisa
1st
1st
Cond


Lupul at the time was also considered a very young (healthy) 50+ point second liner.
Slightly different assessment, but I feel Kthsn feels at least mildly in tune with me about Lupul being more then a cap dump.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
4.2m was pretty steep for a 50 point second liner at the time, no?

Even if he wasn't a cap dump, you have to look at the Canucks not taking on salary in that deal an added bonus.
I agree, and since day one I've expected to take back salary, in one form or another, but I'd also like some ready-for-prime-time talent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Either way:

Lupul
Sbisa
1st
1st
Cond pick

is pretty close to

Bozak (cheap 45pt player)
Frattin (cheap roster player)
Colborne (worth a late 1st?)
Ashton (maybe worth a 2nd?)

The difference in the value of packages also come close to the difference between Luongo and Pronger's ability/contract.

Ultimately like I said it will come down to the "futures" part of the package.

Maybe Gillis will push for a Finn or a Kadri. Or maybe Gillis doesn't like any of TO's prospects and instead he pushes for their 1st rounder.
I disagree about the assessment of Bozak, I don't know that he would be any more then a 30ish point player in our system behind both Kesler and Hank. This isn't to knock him or his ceiling, but our circumstances are different then Toronto's.

I think Colborne, Ashton and Frattin are spot on, but that we still don't have that immediate impact, which I've had explained to me from both sides as not being feasible. Not to talk down the "absolute" value (if there is such a thing) but the relative value here doesn't do it for me.

Edmonton or Columbus are seeming attractive for the sort of return I'd be asking for if I were GMMG.

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10-23-2012, 11:38 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
I'd rather have either Hiller or Anderson at that price than Luongo.
Well then I think I speak on behalf of all Canuck fans when I say I'm happy you're not the GM.



I'll take Finn + Colbourne + Bozak.

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Old
10-23-2012, 11:44 PM
  #98
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Well then I think I speak on behalf of all Canuck fans when I say I'm happy you're not the GM.



I'll take Finn + Colbourne + Bozak.
Nah. Not enough value imo. Frattin included and a piece from our side and I would do it though.

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10-23-2012, 11:48 PM
  #99
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Quote:
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I disagree about the assessment of Bozak, I don't know that he would be any more then a 30ish point player in our system behind both Kesler and Hank. This isn't to knock him or his ceiling, but our circumstances are different then Toronto's.
If I didn't like Bozak and Frattin I wouldn't like that deal either. I think they fit Gillis MO, they're young, cheap and trending. Bozak doesn't need to put up 45pts to be a good addition here, he just has to play good defence and not be a black hole offensively like Pahlsson, Malhotra, Lapierre.

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10-23-2012, 11:48 PM
  #100
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For the millionth time Finn is not being included.

I would personally do the offer I mentioned before. However I can totally see Burke dealing Kadri before Frattin, even though I think Kadri has much higher upside.

We'll see I guess.

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