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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Hamilton or Toronto2/Markham

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Hamilton 107 47.56%
GTA2/Markham 118 52.44%
Voters: 225. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-23-2012, 05:45 PM
  #51
Pilky01
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In a perfect world, I would rather see a team in Hamilton than Markham.

As it stands though, should Markham's arena get built, it is just a much more practical choice than a wholesale renovation of Copps or building a brand new stadium in an open field outside the city.

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10-23-2012, 06:40 PM
  #52
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I vote for both. I don't see why you can't have 2 NHL teams and the Leafs in Southern Ontario.

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10-23-2012, 08:26 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... yes, I understood what danissh was saying. What drives me insane is when people say that, they generally mean (as in the case of the NHL) that Copps "will never be good enough". The intimation & inference is quite clear. Runaway freight train. Well, Im not havin any of it.

Now, as for who pays the $150M-$200M in upgrades & renovations, really rather simple & straightforward requiring a minimum amount of money & interference from the City & or Province. First, you sell the naming rights to the building for 10yrs; the "Ice Surface" (see Yormark in Florida) Sponsorship; "Team & Game Presentation" Sponsorships. Then you sell "Seat Licences" to everyone who wants to buy Seasons Tickets (see ACC in Toronto). Get the Province & City to contribute $20M each out of their "Enterprise (infrastructure & business development) Fund" budgets to make them feel good about themselves & buy some votes.

Good to go. Or is it more prudent to drop $400M++ in Markham in a major P3?
No matter how you cut this thing, slice & dice it, Hamilton is a superior choice.
yes, i agree there is plenty of available money in the hammer right now given all the activity ongoing. major developments, condos going up, a few new jobs here and there around town. hammers doing quite well. the savings from getting rid of hecfi and the enormous coup of landing a team will give city council a blank cheque. nothing too much mind you, we're not glendale, but enough that the province and feds would likely kick in big coin and hey, maybe even the prospective owner might dig into his pockets. corporate buy in might need some vigorous gladhanding but the guaranteed sold out games will surely signal a good investment in the arena by anyone considering it, even stupid politicians.

but maybe a brand new arena would be nice too.

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Old
10-23-2012, 08:41 PM
  #54
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Markham just build it. I heard on the Fan today a Buffalo area land developer suggested Hamilton build a football stadium suitable for the NFL. It would be close enough for the Buffalo fans to travel to and close enough to Toronto so the team could sell expensive corporate boxes. Apparently there isn't enough corporate money left in Buffalo for the Bills. Which begs the question how do the Sabres make money with corporate boxes?

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10-23-2012, 08:45 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Problem is then Detroit would show up with their palms out. That area is completely covered, they have to pay some people to make it happen. Detroit could stomach the scenario you are saying but they will want a check as will the Leafs still. The Buffalo area simply will not allow their part of the market to be fringed upon. In fact part of the problem is I would guess Pegula got certain protections when purchasing the team to insure this wouldn't happen.
I'm curious that if this image is correct then how is it that the scenario I described infringes on any team's restrictive territory:



IFFFF, this is an issue relating to overlapping territories with the new franchise,.... thenn, London, Ontario is the answer:
103 miles London to Detroit
103 miles London to Toronto
122 miles London to Buffalo
No overlapping if a team is located in London.


Last edited by MoreOrr: 10-23-2012 at 08:57 PM.
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10-23-2012, 08:54 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
...but maybe a brand new arena would be nice too.
...perhaps, however, Im of a mind that theres at least 30yrs of life left in Copps' as its been seriously underutilized since opening in 85, was deliberately left incomplete with a view to renovations including all of the ancillary suites & media facilities the newer buildings boast. Its location is excellent and with a franchise installed will spur redevelopment of the downtown core which is badly in need of the kind of impetus a revival of the arena would engender. Far more cost effective & efficient than building anew. Its got excellent sightlines, all of the infrastructure in place to install the kinds of bells & whistles you'll find everywhere else.

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10-23-2012, 09:04 PM
  #57
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What about the dogs? Does no one care about the dogs!!!

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10-23-2012, 09:06 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I'm curious that if this image is correct then how is it that the scenario I described infringes on any team's restrictive territory:



IFFFF, this is an issue relating to overlapping territories with the new franchise,.... thenn, London, Ontario is the answer:
103 miles London to Detroit
103 miles London to Toronto
122 miles London to Buffalo
No overlapping if a team is located in London.
It's 50 miles radius from city LIMIT, not city CENTER though.

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10-23-2012, 09:15 PM
  #59
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What about the dogs? Does no one care about the dogs!!!
Im sure Habs fans do. Thing is, their all in Quebec. And who knows what happens with them? The Mayor of Laval just recently had his house raided by the Surete', theres an ongoing investigation into corruption in the construction industry, the chances of the Bulldogs moving to that city and into a new building looking dim.... but not to worry, there are a number of markets who Im sure would be both accommodating & welcoming of an AHL franchise, particularly so of the Canadiens farm club.

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10-23-2012, 09:19 PM
  #60
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It's 50 miles radius from city LIMIT, not city CENTER though.
Kev, this thread and the other are bleeding into one another. Might wanna merge them... but I'll ask you again; 1917's City Limits when the Constitution was drafted or 2012's? Its arbitrary as its ever changing, Toronto becoming a sprawling Megalopolis, Buffalo too has grown considerably since 1970, and therefore arguable.

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10-23-2012, 09:20 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Someone should build an arena in Cambridge to service southern Ontario (Kitchener-Waterloo, Hamilton, Guelph, Brantford, even London). Or somewhere along the 401 just out of reach of the Maple Leaf restrictive territory (which would be about somewhere directly west of Cambridge and south of Kitchener).
That would ultimately be the best location, serving the huge population of southern Ontario outside of Toronto, and also sufficiently distant from Buffalo not to ill-effect the Sabres.
I don't see any chance Cambridge getting a team. They're the poorest city of Waterloo region, it's a vastly blue collar town with little to no coporate support. If an arena gets built in Waterloo region; and now that the AUD got expanded we're years away, likely till the province steps in and forcibly amalgamates Waterloo and Cambridge (As well as the rest of the border towns like Elmira and Baden into it) into Kitchener, it'll either be in North Waterloo, downtown Kitchener or on one of the two vacant industrial yards at Budd Park or Goodrich Drive. And as I said before, way off of that.

But I do agree about it being the best location. Waterloo Region avoids all the markets, and is centrally located to draw from SW Ontario and still a little bit from the fringe GTA cities.

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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
WHAT you are kidding right Markham a better location for NHL. team than Hamilton please Markham would not just have to go through one team they have to through MLSE. which owns just not the leafs but the raptors & marlies as well & thoses 2 teams right now are struggling at the gate & a NHL. team in Markham would hurt thoses teams & thats why MLSE. will do anything to make sure Markham (TO2) never gets an NHL. team if that arena get bulit & if that means supporting an NHL. team in Hamilton so be it . 2nd saying that an NHL. team in Markham would draw better than Hamilton is is completely false because NHL. team Hamilton would not just draw from the Hamilton area but southwestern Ontario , Niagara Region & even some parts of the GTA. which totals out be 8 million people which makes Hamilton the largest unserved NHL. market in North America not Markham .
I don't agree with your logic about MLSE blocking another team. Another team is good for the new owners of the lealfs. Hamilton is not going to draw from SW Ontario because it's not on the 401, there's no chance a Hamilton team will have STH in London or Kitchener, really anywhere outside Hamilton/Niagara. Kitchener could draw STH from London, Guelph, Stratford, the rest of Waterloo Region, Brantford, and some of the farther west GTA cities on the 401. Kitchener is probably the perfect location outside the core of the GTA, so Hamilton should not get a team becaus that will effectively block the league from moving into Kitchener. GTA + Kitchener during next expansion is the best option to serve all markets in Ontario. Hamilton restricts itself to Niagara and the western GTA.

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10-23-2012, 09:25 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
I don't see any chance Cambridge getting a team. They're the poorest city of Waterloo region, it's a vastly blue collar town with little to no coporate support. If an arena gets built in Waterloo region; and now that the AUD got expanded we're years away, likely till the province steps in and forcibly amalgamates Waterloo and Cambridge (As well as the rest of the border towns like Elmira and Baden into it) into Kitchener, it'll either be in North Waterloo, downtown Kitchener or on one of the two vacant industrial yards at Budd Park or Goodrich Drive. And as I said before, way off of that.
It's not a case of Cambridge getting a team, it's a case of an arena being located in the midst of a surrounding area of multiple small cities that together could bring in a very large fanbase to support a team. And if Cambridge is in fact a relatively poor city, then the inclusion of a new arena that could draw people from all the surrounding areas would be an economic benefit, I would think.

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10-23-2012, 09:34 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
It's not a case of Cambridge getting a team, it's a case of an arena being located in the midst of a surrounding area of multiple small cities that together could bring in a very large fanbase to support a team. And if Cambridge is in fact a relatively poor city, then the inclusion of a new arena that could draw people from all the surrounding areas would be an economic benefit, I would think.
Yeah but arena's just aren't for NHL teams, it's for other events, and Kitchener would be so much better for that. And to be honest, Kitchener has a pretty efficient freeway system, it takes about 5 minutes (Traffic permitting) to get off the 401 and into downtown, and if a new arena is placed at Budd Park which I think would be the best, that's also like a 5-10 minute drive off the 401.

Lets be honest, a Waterloo Region team is going to have the majority of STH from Kitchener, Waterloo, Brantford, Guelph, Cambridge and London, they're not going to draw much from the GTA besides occasional games, but they can still carve out a market for people who can't go to games (Realistically the Leafs market extends almost to Ottawa, as far north as Thunder Bay and all the way to both major borders at Niagara Falls and Windsor. They obviously have the majority of seasons ticket holders in the core GTA, and draw a little bit from as far west as Stratford, far south as London/Niagara Falls, far east as Kingston, and as far north as Barrie.

I also don't think a Cambridge arena would do much to the economy there, most economic growth is still going to be in Kitchener-Waterloo where the two universities are.

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10-23-2012, 09:44 PM
  #64
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Markham just build it. I heard on the Fan today a Buffalo area land developer suggested Hamilton build a football stadium suitable for the NFL. It would be close enough for the Buffalo fans to travel to and close enough to Toronto so the team could sell expensive corporate boxes. Apparently there isn't enough corporate money left in Buffalo for the Bills. Which begs the question how do the Sabres make money with corporate boxes?
I was shocked none the least when that developer suggested movving the Bills to Hamilton & havving them be a regional team like the patriots , giants & Jets is the best option for there survival . But what about the Tiger Cats survival well there is a good chance both can survive in Hamilton if done right & that is a big if . In my opinion the Bills movving to Hamilton just seems unlikely to happen just as 2nd NHL. team in Toronto (Markham) is to happen is just laughble .

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10-23-2012, 09:53 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
It's 50 miles radius from city LIMIT, not city CENTER though.
Yes but another interesting thing to think of and if somebody can find the expansion bylaws from a better source than wikipedia on how many votes it takes to carry expansion or relocation I would be interested to know. I think it is a pretty high number. What you have given these two locations is pretty much a known 4 votes against, especially to a city like London. Chances are Ottawa, Toronto and Buffalo all vote against. Detroit and likely Columbus would vote against as wanting to be the next team east. Are you starting to see the problem here? They also could exert pressure on other owners to vote along with them.

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10-23-2012, 10:10 PM
  #66
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Yes but another interesting thing to think of and if somebody can find the expansion bylaws from a better source than wikipedia on how many votes it takes to carry expansion or relocation I would be interested to know.
We've got the Phoenix bankruptcy court evidence!
Download the PDF: http://www.bizofhockey.com/index.php...=236&Itemid=75

EXPANSION: Bottom of page 3 - Favorable vote of 3/4ths of the league's members. So 23 yes votes.

Relocation is addressed in the bylaws, I believe.

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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
I think it is a pretty high number. What you have given these two locations is pretty much a known 4 votes against, especially to a city like London. Chances are Ottawa, Toronto and Buffalo all vote against. Detroit and likely Columbus would vote against as wanting to be the next team east. Are you starting to see the problem here? They also could exert pressure on other owners to vote along with them.
Sure, but why put Markham and Hamilton in the East ahead of DET and CBJ? You could put Hamilton and/or Markham in the West. After 80+ years without an NHL team, the NHL West is a hell of a lot better than the AHL West.

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10-23-2012, 10:33 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
We've got the Phoenix bankruptcy court evidence!
Download the PDF: http://www.bizofhockey.com/index.php...=236&Itemid=75

EXPANSION: Bottom of page 3 - Favorable vote of 3/4ths of the league's members. So 23 yes votes.

Relocation is addressed in the bylaws, I believe.



Sure, but why put Markham and Hamilton in the East ahead of DET and CBJ? You could put Hamilton and/or Markham in the West. After 80+ years without an NHL team, the NHL West is a hell of a lot better than the AHL West.
Thank you that was what I was hoping to get, google search was letting me down. The point still stands that you might find out they don't have the votes to carry it like many think.

I can tell you right now and he has lost a lot of wealth, but Jim Balsillie won't be approved by they owners. He didn't just try to backdoor Bettman, he went after a group of people in the owners that will now never let him be a part of their group at least not anytime soon and not by the number of votes he would need.

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10-23-2012, 10:33 PM
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Kev, this thread and the other are bleeding into one another. Might wanna merge them... but I'll ask you again; 1917's City Limits when the Constitution was drafted or 2012's? Its arbitrary as its ever changing, Toronto becoming a sprawling Megalopolis, Buffalo too has grown considerably since 1970, and therefore arguable.
Has it? The city had a population of 462,000 in 1970. It now has a population of 261,000.

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10-23-2012, 10:40 PM
  #69
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Has it? The city had a population of 462,000 in 1970. It now has a population of 261,000.
Much of the "rust-belt" has seen numbers in the city proper go down. That doesn't mean the metro area or what many people consider to be around Buffalo or under team controlled boundaries has not seen a huge spike.

For instance the five southeast counties in Michigan have more population than the state of Wisconsin. But people run around talking about how many people are moving out of Detroit. Yes people are leaving Michigan but the Detroit area is massive still in terms of population. So when people wonder why the baseball team spends like that or how Detroit could be a major sports town and just spew the tired old dead city line it proves they don't know the area very well.

I am not as sure about Buffalo, but shrinking population in city limits size doesn't always mean a downturn in the area fanbase.

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10-23-2012, 10:50 PM
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I would rather see it in Toronto to piss off the leafs and their fans.

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10-23-2012, 11:28 PM
  #71
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we should start a poll, who would you rather meet, the tooth fairy or Santa?

Because neither is gonna happen. Not unless MLSEL can find a way to make profit from it.
Seeing as how two of Canada's largest communications companies own the Leafs, I assume broadcasting rights would help out the Buds.

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10-23-2012, 11:34 PM
  #72
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Hamilton would be better.

Any Markham team would just be considered a second class Toronto team. Once the Leafs start winning many, if not most Markham fans would jump ship.

Hamilton is a real city, not a Toronto suburb, that has a long tradition of rivalry with hogtown.

And for the other non GTA citizens who "hate" Toronto, I'm sure they'd love to cheer for Hamilton ( London, Kitchener-Waterloo, Guelph, Burlington, St Catherines, Brantford etc.)

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Sports fans, of course, tend to identify with professional athletes as representatives of their home cities, regardless of how simplistic civic characterizations may be. The Ti-Cats, then, are seen as hard-workers to match their city’s blue-collar culture. The Argos are characterized as metropolitan, over-paid, flashy and cocky players. Matt Dunigan, who quarterbacked for both the Argos and the Ti-Cats in the 1990s, said, “I’ve always felt that Toronto-Hamilton was a battle of culture more than teams. Big city versus small hard-working city.”

There’s a whole host of possible reasons why Hamilton’s grudge against Toronto carries beyond football. Geographic proximity and traditional civic boosterism obvious intensify it. And Torontonians do have a tendency to look down our noses at them, unable to see beyond the steel factories, heavy manufacturing and pollution-choked skyline visible from the Burlington Skyway. But the roots run far deeper.

Samuel Philips Day, an Englishman visitor, noted the rivalry in 1864. Although he praised Hamilton as an “ambitious little city” in the wilderness, he remarked with bewilderment that “the only predominant passion observable amongst the population resolves itself into a sort of harmless rivalry, or more properly, emulation of Toronto.” Another traveler in 1857 predicted that Hamilton was destined to be the leading city of Canada West. Although it developed into an indispensable industrial centre, Hamilton was overlooked as provincial capital and Toronto surpassed it as the commercial centre of the province.
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Not only that, Hamilton has historically resented the intrusion of Torontonians, such as Allan MacNab, in the financial and political affairs of their city. Later, Maple Leafs owner Harold Ballard bought the financially insolvent Tiger-Cats in 1978, and, despite on-field success, repeatedly threatened to move Hamilton’s only big-league team to Toronto. More recently, Toronto is to blame for any thwarted civic ambitions in Hamilton, whether it’s the brain drain to the mega-city or the failed attempts to land an NHL team. The dislike runs so deep that when a new radio station needed to curry favour with the locals, they started a “Toronto Sucks” billboard campaign. But, hey, Toronto is used to this, and builds civic pride out of how much the rest of Canada hates us.

The Toronto-Hamilton rivalry reflects the best and worst sports have to offer. Games are so heavily invested with historical resonance that fans and players get genuinely excited about the games, regardless of win-loss records.
http://torontoist.com/2007/09/steeltown_hogto/

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the hatred for each team runs far deeper than just among fans.

“I hate them tremendously. Start at the top, the city of Toronto, their players, their fans. When we beat them, everybody in Hamilton feels a lot happier the next day. All the neighbours on my street are always fired up,” said Tiger-Cats guard Pete Dyakowski, 28, a five-year veteran of the inter-city gridiron war.

“There’s definitely a different tone in the stands when the Argos are in town. The players feel it too. Playing them so many times, you end up hating them. Everyone in Hamilton hates the Argos.”
Quote:
The tradition is here too,” Barnes said. “The fans look at us as white-collar workers and Hamilton are blue-collar workers. There’s hatred between the two teams and I’m looking forward to it.”

Hamilton linebacker Kevin Eiben played for the Double Blue for 11 years, including the 2004 Grey Cup winning season, before signing with the enemy as a free agent in the off-season, so he’s experienced the bitterness from both sides.

“I love playing this game and now that I’m on the other side I get the chance to actually have fans who are supporting me and not getting booed as I run out onto the field,” Eiben said. “It’s a huge rivalry, man. I’m surprised nobody gets kicked out of the game. There’s usually a brawl. There’s usually a fight. We don’t like one another and that’s just the way it’s been for 90 or a hundred years.”

Tiger-Cats slotback Dave Stala, who caught six passes for 96 yards in last week’s 39-36 loss to the B.C. Lions, said the players take this game personally.

“Being from Hamilton, I’ve seen the fights growing up. It gets pretty physical and in this heat a lot of tempers will be flying so you’ll probably see some scuffles,” Stala said. “The fans make it a different issue. But we’re fighting for a win and that’s the most important thing on Saturday night.”
http://www.moneyville.ca/article/122...ton-tiger-cats

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I grew up in Hamilton, a city that exists somewhere beyond the 40 miles of unmoving traffic currently occupying the QEW.

It’s a proud place and in no instance more so than in its ongoing rivalry with Toronto. Of course, Canada’s financial and cultural capital has got so big for its britches it hardly knows there is a rivalry with poor old, rusty old Steeltown. But there is.

Toronto may have all the money and, for a week or two, all the movie stars. But Hamilton has . . .

Well, what Hamilton has is being Hamilton. Which is to say, not being Toronto.
http://www.thestar.com/entertainment...vid-macfarlane

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10-23-2012, 11:53 PM
  #73
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Build an arena in London. That will serve both Hamilton/Southern Ontario fans who hates the Leafs, and don't care about the Red Wings or the Sabres.

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10-23-2012, 11:58 PM
  #74
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Build an arena in London. That will serve both Hamilton/Southern Ontario fans who hates the Leafs, and don't care about the Red Wings or the Sabres.
Not enough population around London. Too far.

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10-24-2012, 12:32 AM
  #75
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Has it? The city had a population of 462,000 in 1970. It now has a population of 261,000.
... Im assuming most people simply moved to the suburbs & outskirts. Who could blame them? Every time I tuned into Irv Weinstein & Eyewitness News back there in the late 60's & 70's, the city was burning. Pretty much guaranteed every night
another building up in flames. 5Alarm jobs.

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Hamilton is a real city, not a Toronto suburb, that has a long tradition of rivalry with hogtown.
Ya, that does concern me a bit when thinking about a team in Markham. That area really doesnt have much of an "identity" per se. Its just sprawling suburban tracts of McMansions & new home developments, broken up by mile upon mile of skyscraper height electrical towers. The planned arena & surrounding development hoped to provide an anchor to the region. But will it? Could wind up another Kanata for quite some time. Its almost indistinguishable from north Scarborough, really just part of the homogeneous GTA. Im sure they'll do extremely well, yet that issue is one that niggles... Hamilton on the other hand an autonomous "city" & region with its own unique identity, sense of place & pride.

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