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The All Purpose Luongo Thread (MOD WARNING IN OP)

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Old
10-24-2012, 12:18 PM
  #201
y2kcanucks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBaron View Post
Bozak and Frattin makes sense. I would throw in a D prospect and call it a deal.

Bozak+Frattin+Blacker
Why do people think that the Leafs can acquire an elite goalie for an average 3C and a couple "meh" prospects?

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10-24-2012, 12:21 PM
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Why do people think that the Leafs can acquire an elite goalie for an average 3C and a couple "meh" prospects?
Strange because Canucks fans don't seem to have a problem with guys like Bozak and Frattin. It's a lot more realistic then your Gardiner+ proposals.

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10-24-2012, 12:22 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
And then we could come in and say "if Van doesn't start with their 1st and add from there we will keep our elite goalie".
I'd add in a first for Booth, Schroeder and Rodin.

So, 1st + Booth + Schroeder + Rodin for Luongo.

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Old
10-24-2012, 12:24 PM
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
Strange because Canucks fans don't seem to have a problem with guys like Bozak and Frattin. It's a lot more realistic then your Gardiner+ proposals.
Why do people insist on using the term "realistic" as a substitute for the term "lowball" as well?

Bozak is not that good. Lining up with Lupul and Kessel, Bozak only put up 29 assists. That doesn't suggest he would add much offense to our THIRD line. Also he's not good defensively either. His CORSI numbers are similar to Cody Hodgson, and Hodgson was considered expendible because of how he was eaten alive in the defensive zone.

No interest whatsoever.

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10-24-2012, 12:28 PM
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Also he's not good defensively either. His CORSI numbers are similar to Cody Hodgson,
The difference is that Hodgson was playing sheltered minutes with good defensive players and Bozak was playing tough minutes with players that don't know where their own zone is. Bozak is good defensively.

If you could give us one example of a goalie getting the kind of return you're talking about it would help us all understand where you're coming from.

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10-24-2012, 12:28 PM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
And then we could come in and say "if Van doesn't start with their 1st and add from there we will keep our elite goalie".
In all fairness, I was suggesting
One of Booth/Higgins/Hansen/Raymond
+ Nicklas Jensen
+ Chris Tanev
+ 1st

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10-24-2012, 12:30 PM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
The difference is that Hodgson was playing sheltered minutes with good defensive players and Bozak was playing tough minutes with players that don't know where their own zone is. Bozak is good defensively.

If you could give us one example of a goalie getting the kind of return you're talking about it would help us all understand where you're coming from.
That explains why Bozak's defensive numbers were WORSE than his defensively inept linemates.

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10-24-2012, 12:32 PM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
The difference is that Hodgson was playing sheltered minutes with good defensive players and Bozak was playing tough minutes with players that don't know where their own zone is. Bozak is good defensively.

I don't think you can parse accurately what Bozak is like defensively without further digging into the numbers.


As it stands, he _seems_ better than Hodgson which is all that should really matter.

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10-24-2012, 12:33 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
That explains why Bozak's defensive numbers were WORSE than his defensively inept linemates.
Defensive numbers?

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Old
10-24-2012, 12:34 PM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
That explains why Bozak's defensive numbers were WORSE than his defensively inept linemates.
Curious. Which numbers in particular?

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10-24-2012, 12:36 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
That explains why Bozak's defensive numbers were WORSE than his defensively inept linemates.
If you only go by stats, you're not gonna get anywhere. Bozak was playing with Kessel who is all to well known for being poor in the defensive zone. Bozak's defensive capabilities are actually really good and you'd know that if you watched him play.

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10-24-2012, 12:37 PM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Curious. Which numbers in particular?
CORSI On, Relative CORSI.

Also, his offensive zone starts was 52.5%, while Kessel was at 54.3% and Lupul was at 55.5%. Not a huge difference so the excuse of him starting in the defensive zone a lot more than his linemates doesn't really fly.

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10-24-2012, 12:38 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
If you only go by stats, you're not gonna get anywhere. Bozak was playing with Kessel who is all to well known for being poor in the defensive zone. Bozak's defensive capabilities are actually really good and you'd know that if you watched him play.
I agree with you, and that's seen by the fact that Kessel's defensive numbers are better than Bozak's...oh wait...

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10-24-2012, 12:39 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by bansheebeat View Post
Burke wouldn't even trade Frattin for Luongo straight up.
I would hope that's because Burke has a massive mancrush on Frattin and not that anyone thinks that Frattin holds more value then luongo

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Old
10-24-2012, 12:47 PM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Why do people insist on using the term "realistic" as a substitute for the term "lowball" as well?

Bozak is not that good. Lining up with Lupul and Kessel, Bozak only put up 29 assists. That doesn't suggest he would add much offense to our THIRD line. Also he's not good defensively either. His CORSI numbers are similar to Cody Hodgson, and Hodgson was considered expendible because of how he was eaten alive in the defensive zone.

No interest whatsoever.
people use these terms like reasonable when they feel that people are agreeing with them not when people are actually being reasonable. Although I disagree completely and think this package is actually decent I hate when people only call fans reasonable when they agree with their own opinions.

We all know why Cody was shipped out and if you could ask any Canuck fan before the trade it would be hard to find many that considered him "expendable"

I would really push for either the 1st or Finn be involved though

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Old
10-24-2012, 12:53 PM
  #216
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Depending one how the CBA works out, Lupul, Liles, Bozak and Frattin for Luongo, Raymond and a pick.

Probably far from fair, but I'm moving away from the futures base. We get a puck mover to play with Edler (hopefully ala Ehrhoff), a 20ish goal, fiftyish point player that can play with stars (hopefully gelling with Kesler and Booth), our bottom line futures player in Frattin, and Bozak to cover our 2C and take up our 3C.

Lupul, until he is resigned, is a rental.

Liles is a bottom four offensive defender.

Frattin is basically filler. He will get better, but he is like Weise in my perspective. =

Bozak is at best a 2nd line center, but we need someone that can step up to that position at least temporarily, while Toronto still holds on to Connolly, Lombardi, Grabovski and their bottom line centers.

I'd be willing to take Lombardi or Connolly back in place of Bozak if we keep our pick, and we swap Liles for Gunnarsson.

Basically I have the value, roughly, as:

Bozak >= 2nd
Frattin/Steckel =< Raymond
Lupul, Liles =< Luongo

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Old
10-24-2012, 12:59 PM
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Depending one how the CBA works out, Lupul, Liles, Bozak and Frattin for Luongo, Raymond and a pick.

Probably far from fair, but I'm moving away from the futures base. We get a puck mover to play with Edler (hopefully ala Ehrhoff), a 20ish goal, fiftyish point player that can play with stars (hopefully gelling with Kesler and Booth), our bottom line futures player in Frattin, and Bozak to cover our 2C and take up our 3C.

Lupul, until he is resigned, is a rental.

Liles is a bottom four offensive defender.

Frattin is basically filler. He will get better, but he is like Weise in my perspective. =

Bozak is at best a 2nd line center, but we need someone that can step up to that position at least temporarily, while Toronto still holds on to Connolly, Lombardi, Grabovski and their bottom line centers.

I'd be willing to take Lombardi or Connolly back in place of Bozak if we keep our pick, and we swap Liles for Gunnarsson.

Basically I have the value, roughly, as:

Bozak >= 2nd
Frattin/Steckel =< Raymond
Lupul, Liles =< Luongo


Moving away from a futures return makes the Leafs weaker in the here and now, exactly the opposite thing they want to do if they have interest in Luongo.


They aren't trading Lupul. And they aren't interested in Raymond. The former is their 1st line LW and has chemistry with their best forward. The latter is not necessary with MacA already there.

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Old
10-24-2012, 01:05 PM
  #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Why do people think that the Leafs can acquire an elite goalie for an average 3C and a couple "meh" prospects?
I agree with you that there's a lot of lowball offers for Luongo, but it's not like the Canucks gave up much to get him.

Allen, Bertuzzi, and Auld for Luongo, Krajicek, and a 6th.

This was when Luongo had more value too, I would argue. He was younger, his salary wasn't such a question mark (I think the issue is overblown, but the contract still is a question-mark).

Krajicek and Allen are pretty much a wash. Allen is better, but at the time he was a bottom-pair (right?) guy. Auld had some promise then, but is nothing more than a journeyman backup now, and Bertuzzi had a lot of baggage.

I don't think Luongo will fetch any top tier prospects. Kadri seems the likeliest because I think he could use a fresh start, but seeing Gardiner go for Luongo would be a real shock.

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10-24-2012, 01:14 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I agree with you, and that's seen by the fact that Kessel's defensive numbers are better than Bozak's...oh wait...
Ummm...not too sure what you're getting (I know you're trying to be sarcastic, but I don't really understand it so I can comment on it). But I can say this: I don't know if you've noticed, but we kind of have issues with goaltending.

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10-24-2012, 01:19 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Why do people think that the Leafs can acquire an elite goalie for an average 3C and a couple "meh" prospects?
The best goalie of the last 30 years who already had a Stanley Cup was traded for a meh return back before the salary cap era. The GM at the time was a complete moron but still had a lot more options than Vancouver does.

What makes you think Luongo should return more than he did?

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10-24-2012, 01:19 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
So either we win now or chuck the blueprint? These guys are in their mid 20's, come on now. We also have this kid named Rielly, likely better than any of the above named minus Kessel.
Teams that don't start winning before their key players hit UFA status usually have trouble retaining their UFAs and as a result either rebuild by trading them or rebuild by losing them.

Recent examples:
-Florida (Bouwmeester, Horton, etc.)
-CBJ (Nash - convinced him to re-sign due to their increase in spending but still couldn't win, Vermette)
-MIN (Gaborik and Burns) - managed to keep Koivu
-Atlanta (Hossa then Kovalchuk)

These teams' star players contracts came up in years when they were losing and as a result they were basically thrown into a re-build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorityRules View Post
The best goalie of the last 30 years who already had a Stanley Cup was traded for a meh return back before the salary cap era. The GM at the time was a complete moron but still had a lot more options than Vancouver does.

What makes you think Luongo should return more than he did?
-A 35 year old Hasek was traded for Kozlov, who was a 30 goal scorer and had scored as many as 72 points in a season, and a 1st.

Leafs equivalent - Lupul and a 1st?

-A 29 year old Roy was traded for:
-Thibault, who was a top prospect who had shown well at the NHL level and became and all-star
-Rucinsky, a young two-way guy that had a 29 goal year the season of the trade and a 28 goal year the year after, and
-Kovalenko, a young power forward who went on to have a 28 goal year the year of the trade followed by a 32 goal season directly after the trade.

Leafs equivalent - Gardiner (Thibault), Kulemin (Rucinsky), and Lupul (Kovalenko) - note: can't make this perfect, Rucinsky was better than Kule, Lupul better than Kovalenko

The Avs actually gave up a lot for Roy but despite that, his performance was so good that it basically made it seem like nothing. The Canadians actually got two guys who scored at 30 goal clips during the clutch and grab era and a young all-star level goalie for Roy.


Last edited by DJOpus: 10-24-2012 at 01:33 PM.
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Old
10-24-2012, 01:20 PM
  #222
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Btw, highly unlikely Finn gets moved. Burke puts a huge amount of value in young defenceman that he just drafted. Giving up on Finn before he has even spent a year in the organization isn't like him. It's more likely he'd give up a marlies prospect than a young talented d prospect.

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10-24-2012, 01:20 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by MajorityRules View Post
The best goalie of the last 30 years who already had a Stanley Cup was traded for a meh return back before the salary cap era. The GM at the time was a complete moron but still had a lot more options than Vancouver does.

What makes you think Luongo should return more than he did?
You answered your own question. The GM who traded Roy was a complete moron. Gillis is not.
Also, assuming that GM's are rational, wouldn't a GM look at what Colorado did after acquiring Roy and hit themselves for not beating Colorado's offer. I'm in no way equating Luongo with Roy but it looks to me that a solid goalie should get a good return.


Last edited by vanwest: 10-24-2012 at 01:45 PM.
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10-24-2012, 01:26 PM
  #224
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Bottom line is that Vancouver would be looking for someone who can play a checking/shutdown role similar to Grabovski and Bozak hasn't shown he'd thrive in that situation since he's been playing against opposing teams top shutdown lines with Kessel rather than their top scoring lines.

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10-24-2012, 01:37 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Why do people insist on using the term "realistic" as a substitute for the term "lowball" as well?

Bozak is not that good. Lining up with Lupul and Kessel, Bozak only put up 29 assists. That doesn't suggest he would add much offense to our THIRD line. Also he's not good defensively either. His CORSI numbers are similar to Cody Hodgson, and Hodgson was considered expendible because of how he was eaten alive in the defensive zone.

No interest whatsoever.
What's more realistic, the Gardiner+ offer or the Bozak,Frattin etc offers?

Bozak clearly struggled last season in his second full year, I won't even try to deny that. He couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. It would be foolish not to be believe he'd only improve after last season especially coming into his prime. And I'm sorry but corsi isn't the be all, end all.

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