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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part V: The "Back to square one" Edition

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Old
10-24-2012, 01:24 PM
  #551
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I was discussing this with him not long ago.

Forbes is his bible.

The amount of teams actually losing money is small, and the actual amount is even smaller, when you take into consideration that roughly 25% of the figure is just Phoenix.

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10-24-2012, 01:24 PM
  #552
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Well once again we are left with no evidence to support the claim that the owners aren't losing money, though.

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10-24-2012, 01:25 PM
  #553
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Originally Posted by AceintheSpace View Post
I was discussing this with him not long ago.

Forbes is his bible.
It's not the Bible. It's the only thing we have to go on.

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10-24-2012, 01:26 PM
  #554
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I dont think he realizes Forbes' reputation.

About any rankings. Not just NHL franchise values.

Forbes in general is a joke, so while the ranking may be right, the actual numbers arent. Its to be taken lightly.

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10-24-2012, 01:27 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by AceintheSpace View Post
I dont think he realizes Forbes' reputation.

About any rankings. Not just NHL franchise values.

Forbes is a joke.
It's not a joke when it comes to NFL valuations.

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10-24-2012, 01:28 PM
  #556
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Well once again we are left with no evidence to support the claim that the owners aren't losing money, though.
No, we are left without numerical evidence, which is not at all the same thing.

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10-24-2012, 01:30 PM
  #557
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You can try to run the numbers as much as you want.

Key word being try.

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10-24-2012, 01:31 PM
  #558
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I'm not even mad anymore....how can you be? It's not worth it. Why get mad when none of what's going on is phasing the people that are actually involved in the discussions?


So much for trading for rick nash and all that hype LOL.

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10-24-2012, 01:34 PM
  #559
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Seems Legit.

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10-24-2012, 01:37 PM
  #560
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According to sources Don Fehr has convinced the players the longer they remain firm, the better the deal will be down the road
https://twitter.com/andystrickland/s...73200686288897

Pierre LeBrun said the same thing during his chat at 1pm today. Fehr is telling the players to be a little more patient.

I heard Kyper say the same thing at noon today before Pierre said it today. Nick said some of the players are getting a little antsy.

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On Tuesday's conf. call Don fehr explained to the players that the deal got better in 2004the longer the lockout went.
https://twitter.com/andystrickland/s...73643244097538

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10-24-2012, 01:37 PM
  #561
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Seems Legit.
Lets hope not. What we don,t need is a last minute deal shoved down our throats. We need a deal to be worked out so we never face this again1

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10-24-2012, 01:40 PM
  #562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
https://twitter.com/andystrickland/s...73200686288897

Pierre LeBrun said the same thing during his chat at 1pm today. Fehr is telling the players to be a little more patient.

I heard Kyper say the same thing at noon today before Pierre said it today. Nick said some of the players are getting a little antsy.



https://twitter.com/andystrickland/s...73643244097538
The percentages of an ever decreasing pie might get higher. It's still counter-intuitive.

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10-24-2012, 01:41 PM
  #563
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No, we are left without numerical evidence, which is not at all the same thing.
I don't really count your awesome "Why aren't the owners selling" rhetoric.

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10-24-2012, 01:41 PM
  #564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
https://twitter.com/andystrickland/s...73200686288897

Pierre LeBrun said the same thing during his chat at 1pm today. Fehr is telling the players to be a little more patient.

I heard Kyper say the same thing at noon today before Pierre said it today. Nick said some of the players are getting a little antsy.



https://twitter.com/andystrickland/s...73643244097538
So, he's not representing the will of the players, but convincing them to believe what he believes.

I wasn't following very closely back in 2004 - but didn't the players start saying that they wouldn't take a cap and they ended up getting it and a rollback? How is that a better deal?

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10-24-2012, 01:42 PM
  #565
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Originally Posted by AceintheSpace View Post
You can try to run the numbers as much as you want.

Key word being try.
I don't have any numbers.

That's why I've been relying on the people who know better than I do and asking if there is any evidence to contradict it.

So far, no one has any contradictory evidence.

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10-24-2012, 01:43 PM
  #566
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Originally Posted by mschmidt64 View Post
It's not the Bible. It's the only thing we have to go on.
You also need to acknowledge that Forbes has no access to the real books and records. Nor did Arthur Leavitt for that matter. There is an audited financial statement for each team. The owners do not give it away. The auditors are not allowed to discuss it. The only time it HAS to be turned over is in the case of an IRS audit. The owners have never made those statements available to anyone. So, yes, Forbes is what you point to. But one cannot simply ignore the fact that all Forbes has are reported numbers.

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10-24-2012, 01:44 PM
  #567
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
So, he's not representing the will of the players, but convincing them to believe what he believes.

I wasn't following very closely back in 2004 - but didn't the players start saying that they wouldn't take a cap and they ended up getting it and a rollback? How is that a better deal?
Yeah, but they got it so you can't walk away from an arbitration award under $1,000,000. Also don't forget about the Bennigans coupons.

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10-24-2012, 01:46 PM
  #568
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You also need to acknowledge that Forbes has no access to the real books and records. Nor did Arthur Leavitt for that matter. There is an audited financial statement for each team. The owners do not give it away. The auditors are not allowed to discuss it. The only time it HAS to be turned over is in the case of an IRS audit. The owners have never made those statements available to anyone. So, yes, Forbes is what you point to. But one cannot simply ignore the fact that all Forbes has are reported numbers.
I acknowledge that.

I also believe that is still the most reliable information we have. I don't know if it's 100% true but I see no reason to believe it's not "more or less true."

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10-24-2012, 01:46 PM
  #569
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The PA wanted to discuss the make whole provision with the NHL today but the NHL didn't want to meet to discuss it after the NHL indicated they wanted to address the make whole with the PA. Makes no sense. Gary said he would meet with the PA anytime and anywhere.
RB, I didn't see that reported anywhere. If the PA specifically said "we'd like to meet with you to discuss the make-whole provision you proposed in your last offer," then I agree with others that the league most certainly should have met with them.

However, what I read from the writers I follow is that the conversation went something like this:

The PA: "We want to meet."
The NHL: "Are you prepared to discuss our proposal or to make new proposals of your own?"
The PA: "We refuse to put any preconditions on the table, our membership has simply asked us to get back together."
The NHL: "We're not going to meet just to meet. Once you are willing to commit to either discuss our offer or make a new offer of your own, we'll be happy to meet."

If that's how it went down, I understand the league's position entirely.

If, however, the players specifically said that they want to discuss the make-whole as RB implies in his quote above, then my opinion does a complete 180 and the owners are wrong for not having gotten together with them.

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10-24-2012, 01:47 PM
  #570
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Yeah, but they got it so you can't walk away from an arbitration award under $1,000,000. Also don't forget about the Bennigans coupons.
Also, the deal would have not just be better than the one on the table now, but it would have to make up for the money they'll lose holding out. That's... not going to happen.

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10-24-2012, 01:48 PM
  #571
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I can't possibly agree with that.

So Forbes is just making things up, that's your position? Interesting.

Even if it is projections, I trust those projections more than raw speculation.
This. Forbes may not be 100% accurate, but do people really think the majority of teams are profitable? If they were I would expect the lights would be on and there would be hockey right now.

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10-24-2012, 01:50 PM
  #572
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RB, I didn't see that reported anywhere. If the PA specifically said "we'd like to meet with you to discuss the make-whole provision you proposed in your last offer," then I agree with others that the league most certainly should have met with them.

However, what I read from the writers I follow is that the conversation went something like this:

The PA: "We want to meet."
The NHL: "Are you prepared to discuss our proposal or to make new proposals of your own?"
The PA: "We refuse to put any preconditions on the table, our membership has asked us to get back together."
The NHL: "We're not going to meet just to meet. If you are willing to commit to discuss our offer or make a new offer of your own, we'll be happy to meet."

If that's how it went down, I understand the league's position entirely. If, however, the players specifically said that they want to discuss the make-whole, then my opinion does a complete 180 and the owners are wrong for not having gotten together with them.
Nick Kypreos was discussing that with Daren Millard and Doug MacLean on Hockeycentral Fan 590 today. Kyper has good PA ties. He said the NHLPA wanted to discuss the make whole program but the NHL refused. Even MacLean who is pro-NHL owner and hates Fehr said the NHL was wrong for decling the meeting. MacLean got a text from a NHL source/exec who said the meetings are in the bottom of the 9th inning.

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10-24-2012, 01:52 PM
  #573
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I don't really count your awesome "Why aren't the owners selling" rhetoric.
Actually, that's only one part of it. The other, larger, part of it is that the owner's offer for a new CBA wouldn't fix the problems of a league with 60% of it's franchises losing money. The cut in percentage isn't nearly enough. The increase in revenue sharing isn't nearly enough.

The league is okay with these things because the whole premise they are using is not as true as they're making it out to be.

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10-24-2012, 01:53 PM
  #574
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From a financial standpoint I really fail to see how losing a year of salary is worth whatever "better deal" you will be able to get in the summer (or later).

Only exception I can think of is good players on their ELCs. Obviously only those who have really established themselves and don't risk being cut after their entry deals.

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10-24-2012, 01:53 PM
  #575
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This. Forbes may not be 100% accurate, but do people really think the majority of teams are profitable? If they were I would expect the lights would be on and there would be hockey right now.
Just as logical as "why aren't the owners selling."

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