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CBA Negotiations II: This is the song that never ends...

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10-24-2012, 11:42 AM
  #401
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
They aren't "miles apart"
They might be when an 82 game season isn't on the table

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10-24-2012, 11:44 AM
  #402
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Chartered flight for the team to a game $15,000, First class hotel $4,000, Catered meals $1,000.
i'm not sure i follow you here. if my employer sends me to a conference in another city for a few days, they will pay my travel and lodging expenses.

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10-24-2012, 12:32 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by PAZUZU View Post
i'm not sure i follow you here. if my employer sends me to a conference in another city for a few days, they will pay my travel and lodging expenses.
Yeah, I don't see the big deal. Every sports team in the top leagues does the same stuff. You don't see NFL, MLB or NBA players carpooling to away games, staying in a Red Roof Inn, and bringing a bagged lunch along with them.

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10-24-2012, 12:42 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
Yeah, I don't see the big deal. Every sports team in the top leagues does the same stuff. You don't see NFL, MLB or NBA players carpooling to away games, staying in a Red Roof Inn, and bringing a bagged lunch along with them.
I guess the counter argument is that the revenues from games / series in those sports are higher, thus making the marginal cost of housing and transporting the players less decisive, but yeah, I'm inclined to agree, this is a bit of a distraction.

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10-24-2012, 01:40 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by PAZUZU View Post
i'm not sure i follow you here. if my employer sends me to a conference in another city for a few days, they will pay my travel and lodging expenses.
I don't know about you, but on my last TDY the government stipend was $55/day for food/drink/etc. and $72/night for lodging. I mean, you aren't shacked up in a motel eating ramen noodles, but comparing that to what an athlete expects is apples and oranges.

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10-24-2012, 01:45 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
They aren't "miles apart"
Define "miles".

I see one side saying "We proposed immediate salary cuts and unless you want to discuss our offer, we're not prepared to discuss anything" and the other side saying "we're willing to work with you but we're not prepared to take an immediate pay cut".

Until one side blinks, nothing is going to change. Granted, they are still working on the basis of a salary cap existence (which is a huge change from last time) but that's about the only thing they're agreeing on at the moment.

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10-24-2012, 01:51 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
Define "miles".

I see one side saying "We proposed immediate salary cuts and unless you want to discuss our offer, we're not prepared to discuss anything" and the other side saying "we're willing to work with you but we're not prepared to take an immediate pay cut".

Until one side blinks, nothing is going to change. Granted, they are still working on the basis of a salary cap existence (which is a huge change from last time) but that's about the only thing they're agreeing on at the moment.
The problem is fehr.

Get him out and it would go quicker.. Hell, with the NHL's recent proposal Fehr said it was a good proposal to work off of... And then goes and gives 3 proposals that have nothing to do with it

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10-24-2012, 01:51 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by CootaRoo View Post
I don't know about you, but on my last TDY the government stipend was $55/day for food/drink/etc. and $72/night for lodging. I mean, you aren't shacked up in a motel eating ramen noodles, but comparing that to what an athlete expects is apples and oranges.
I have no idea where you're travelling that $72 a night will work. I challenge you to find a hotel in Toronto anywhere, but particularly within a short distance to the Air Canada Centre for less than $350/night. While US prices are certainly lower than ours, I'd bet most major cities aren't vastly different.

As far as private charters, it's probably cheaper for teams to do this than to try to get enough space on scheduled commercial flights, risking missing a flight due to OT or wasting a lot of time in airports, and co-ordinating transportation from the airport to the hotel if you can't get all team members, etc. on the same flight.

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10-24-2012, 01:53 PM
  #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
The problem is fehr.

Get him out and it would go quicker.. Hell, with the NHL's recent proposal Fehr said it was a good proposal to work off of... And then goes and gives 3 proposals that have nothing to do with it
Without Bettman the current lockout trend possibly doesn't exist. And let's not forget that he refused to meet today, not Fehr.

I don't like Fehr and he might have a role in setting a second sport back 20 years, but let's not act like Bettman doesn't deserve a good amount of blame as well.

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10-24-2012, 01:55 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
The problem is fehr.

Get him out and it would go quicker.. Hell, with the NHL's recent proposal Fehr said it was a good proposal to work off of... And then goes and gives 3 proposals that have nothing to do with it
The problem is also Bettman and Daly (they're ALL guilty of being a problem). They spent all of 10 minutes scanning the players' latest proposals. There is no way they were willing to even consider three words out of the whole damn thing.

The owners' first proposal was an insult to everyone involved, and started the negotiations off on a sour note. Nothing since then has come as a surprise in the least.

At least the players' approach is to work together to reach the owners' ultimate goal of 50/50. We can't say the same about the owners - at this point, it's their way or the highway. Negotiations, my ass.

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10-24-2012, 02:05 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
The problem is also Bettman and Daly (they're ALL guilty of being a problem). They spent all of 10 minutes scanning the players' latest proposals. There is no way they were willing to even consider three words out of the whole damn thing.

The owners' first proposal was an insult to everyone involved, and started the negotiations off on a sour note. Nothing since then has come as a surprise in the least.

At least the players' approach is to work together to reach the owners' ultimate goal of 50/50. We can't say the same about the owners - at this point, it's their way or the highway. Negotiations, my ass.
if you know so much why dont you tell us what exactly the proposals are? because last i heard they said feur's proposals made no sense that's why they backed out, you can blame the betmen and the owners all you want, it's not going to bring hockey back, you only hurting yourself, we are all frustrated but pointing fingers is not going bring this lockout to a close.

best thing we all can do, is just deal with it and hope for the best, there's nothing fans can do about it, that's realism. you want to go and pound the owners doors or betmen, go ahead, it's not going to change anything. you pounding on a brick wall that none of us can do to break it.


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10-24-2012, 02:07 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by toughfighter83 View Post
if you know so much why dont you tell us what exactly the proposals are?
It's well known public information.

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/blog/ey...nuts-and-bolts

Google gave me that in a second.

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10-24-2012, 02:14 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
The problem is also Bettman and Daly (they're ALL guilty of being a problem). They spent all of 10 minutes scanning the players' latest proposals. There is no way they were willing to even consider three words out of the whole damn thing.

The owners' first proposal was an insult to everyone involved, and started the negotiations off on a sour note. Nothing since then has come as a surprise in the least.

At least the players' approach is to work together to reach the owners' ultimate goal of 50/50. We can't say the same about the owners - at this point, it's their way or the highway. Negotiations, my ass.
umm, I really don't know how to respond to this rationally. The proposals from the players offer a de-linked salary cap. Something that was never, ever going to be on the cards. Something that the entire 2004 lockout was created over.

The third proposal was created in the hour before they showed it to the NHL. Great job Fehr......

I love the whole bunch of nonsense about the players "working together" to reach the "ultimate" goal. You mean the same goal seen in all other major american sports. 50/50 split is the norm. Also, they must be working really hard together when several of the players didn't even inform the NHLPA that they were talking to the owners.

Lets see how hard they work together when games are missed and paychecks don't materialise. Lets see how tough cindy crosby and the other millionairres are when the 4th line grinders making pennies is respect to them start chirping.

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10-24-2012, 02:17 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
The problem is also Bettman and Daly (they're ALL guilty of being a problem). They spent all of 10 minutes scanning the players' latest proposals. There is no way they were willing to even consider three words out of the whole damn thing.

The owners' first proposal was an insult to everyone involved, and started the negotiations off on a sour note. Nothing since then has come as a surprise in the least.

At least the players' approach is to work together to reach the owners' ultimate goal of 50/50. We can't say the same about the owners - at this point, it's their way or the highway. Negotiations, my ass.
No. the negotations got off to a sour not when the NHLPA had a midnight coup and got rid of Kelly in favor of Fehr. Kelly made it known that he didn't want another lockout and was willing to start negotiations early.. Which fehr did not do.

Fehr dicked around while the NHL waited for him.

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10-24-2012, 02:21 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
No. the negotations got off to a sour not when the NHLPA had a midnight coup and got rid of Kelly in favor of Fehr. Kelly made it known that he didn't want another lockout and was willing to start negotiations early.. Which fehr did not do.

Fehr dicked around while the NHL waited for him.
True as that might be, I doubt Kelly would have accepted the owner's opening offer either.

It is possible that negotiations would have gone quicker from the start of the lock-out, but I think it was inevitable as soon as the NHL decided it needed to both slash the players share of revenue and impose new restrictions on contracts. It was never likely to achieve those goals without a labor stoppage, IMO.

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10-24-2012, 02:22 PM
  #416
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Both sides are to blame. Bettman's group is hoping the players are desperate enough for an 82 game season that they'll work off the NHL's framework and Fehr has the players convinced the NHL will continue to give as long as they don't sense weakness.

I don't really blame the NHL for saying no to the meeting, if the PA wasn't bringing a proposal and had no intention of discussing the NHLs latest proposal they would really be meeting for the sake of meeting. It'd be better than nothing, but at this point it's not going to accomplish anything. This is the best offer the NHL is going to give that starts the season on Nov 2nd. If the PA isn't going to work off that offer there is no reason to meet, both sides are going to have to come up with something different.

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10-24-2012, 02:27 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
True as that might be, I doubt Kelly would have accepted the owner's opening offer either.

It is possible that negotiations would have gone quicker from the start of the lock-out, but I think it was inevitable as soon as the NHL decided it needed to both slash the players share of revenue and impose new restrictions on contracts. It was never likely to achieve those goals without a labor stoppage, IMO.
Getting negotiations started early would have solved a lot of issues..

The nhl's initial offer was an insult to the NHLPA for making them wait from november until june. With Kelly, we probably have a more harmonious negotiation proess that starts in november or even earlier. If we use the current timeline for when the nhl wanted to meet, we'd be hearing them negotiate the current stuff in march and not when the season should be taking place

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10-24-2012, 02:28 PM
  #418
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Getting negotiations started early would have solved a lot of issues..

The nhl's initial offer was an insult to the NHLPA for making them wait from november until june. With Kelly, we probably have a more harmonious negotiation proess that starts in november or even earlier. If we use the current timeline for when the nhl wanted to meet, we'd be hearing them negotiate the current stuff in march and not when the season should be taking place
I don't see how it would have changed anything re: the lockout, to be honest.

Given the cuts the NHL is asking the players to take (on a range of issues), I think it is unlikely the players' ever agreed without the pressure from a stoppage.

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10-24-2012, 02:30 PM
  #419
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Andy Strickland ‏@andystrickland
According to sources Don Fehr has convinced the players the longer they remain firm, the better the deal will be down the road #NHLPA



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10-24-2012, 02:31 PM
  #420
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Andy Strickland ‏@andystrickland
According to sources Don Fehr has convinced the players the longer they remain firm, the better the deal will be down the road #NHLPA


Well, so far, he's right, isn't he?

(Not that I see this as a long-term strategy, of course).

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10-24-2012, 02:33 PM
  #421
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Well, so far, he's right, isn't he?

(Not that I see this as a long-term strategy, of course).
He would be right up until the 82 game schedule went out the window which is about to happen

edit : and if the season is lost, losing 1.8b is a lot more than about a billion they'd be losing on the current proposal

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10-24-2012, 02:35 PM
  #422
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whlie there is likely greed with the players, lets not act like its just one sided here. there are some hardline stance owners who have major influence in the negotiations.
Fehr is a dick, but there are those group of owners who would like nothing better then to break the union into a million pieces. That stance isnt about Fehr either its been that way for decades.

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10-24-2012, 02:35 PM
  #423
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Well, so far, he's right, isn't he?

(Not that I see this as a long-term strategy, of course).
If the NHL offered a 60 game season the players are looking at theoretically 400-500M in losses depending on revenue obviously and what % they're able to negotiate for this season. It's unlikely that any "win" in the HRR split is going to equal those losses, not to mention the reduction of the whole pie as a result of losing fans.

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10-24-2012, 02:37 PM
  #424
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@Real_ESPNLeBrun: Bettman says 82-game season must start by Nov. 2. NHLPA leadership believes an 82-game season can start a bit later... Game of chicken

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10-24-2012, 02:38 PM
  #425
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No. the negotations got off to a sour not when the NHLPA had a midnight coup and got rid of Kelly in favor of Fehr. Kelly made it known that he didn't want another lockout and was willing to start negotiations early.. Which fehr did not do.

Fehr dicked around while the NHL waited for him.
I do agree that Fehr could and should have been willing to negotiate earlier in the process.

However, the NHLPA had every right to hire whoever they felt would do the best job for them. The PA was a proper bleepshow until Fehr's arrival, and Kelly was the ringleader of the circus.

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