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The All Purpose Luongo Thread (MOD WARNING IN OP)

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Old
10-24-2012, 01:38 PM
  #226
y2kcanucks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan Of Every Anton View Post
I agree with you that there's a lot of lowball offers for Luongo, but it's not like the Canucks gave up much to get him.

Allen, Bertuzzi, and Auld for Luongo, Krajicek, and a 6th.

This was when Luongo had more value too, I would argue. He was younger, his salary wasn't such a question mark (I think the issue is overblown, but the contract still is a question-mark).

Krajicek and Allen are pretty much a wash. Allen is better, but at the time he was a bottom-pair (right?) guy. Auld had some promise then, but is nothing more than a journeyman backup now, and Bertuzzi had a lot of baggage.

I don't think Luongo will fetch any top tier prospects. Kadri seems the likeliest because I think he could use a fresh start, but seeing Gardiner go for Luongo would be a real shock.
Luongo was set to be dealt 1 for 1 for Joe Thornton, according to Mike Keenan, but ownership didn't want to take back Thornton's salary.

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10-24-2012, 01:40 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
What's more realistic, the Gardiner+ offer or the Bozak,Frattin etc offers?

Bozak clearly struggled last season in his second full year, I won't even try to deny that. He couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. It would be foolish not to be believe he'd only improve after last season especially coming into his prime. And I'm sorry but corsi isn't the be all, end all.
As a Canuck's fan I'd say that the Bozak, Frattin etc offers are more realistic. The bottomline for me is that we need players who can help us right away and probably a prospect to help our fairly shallow prospect pool.

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Old
10-24-2012, 01:40 PM
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
Ummm...not too sure what you're getting (I know you're trying to be sarcastic, but I don't really understand it so I can comment on it). But I can say this: I don't know if you've noticed, but we kind of have issues with goaltending.
CORSI has nothing to do with goaltending. It is a metric that measures shots directed towards the opposition goalie versus shots directed towards your own goalie when you are on the ice.

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10-24-2012, 01:41 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Depending one how the CBA works out, Lupul, Liles, Bozak and Frattin for Luongo, Raymond and a pick.

Probably far from fair, but I'm moving away from the futures base. We get a puck mover to play with Edler (hopefully ala Ehrhoff), a 20ish goal, fiftyish point player that can play with stars (hopefully gelling with Kesler and Booth), our bottom line futures player in Frattin, and Bozak to cover our 2C and take up our 3C.

Lupul, until he is resigned, is a rental.

Liles is a bottom four offensive defender.

Frattin is basically filler. He will get better, but he is like Weise in my perspective. =

Bozak is at best a 2nd line center, but we need someone that can step up to that position at least temporarily, while Toronto still holds on to Connolly, Lombardi, Grabovski and their bottom line centers.

I'd be willing to take Lombardi or Connolly back in place of Bozak if we keep our pick, and we swap Liles for Gunnarsson.

Basically I have the value, roughly, as:

Bozak >= 2nd
Frattin/Steckel =< Raymond
Lupul, Liles =< Luongo
when was the last time a trade involved a team moving 3 significant roster players for 1?

your asking for the leafs top line left winger, their top center (i recognize he should be a 3rd line/ 2b center) and a top 4 defenseman qbpp and then a prospect on top of that who is highly regarded.

then you go on to ammend your proposal to

connolly, gunnaron, lupul and frattin for luongo and raymond which is also pretty bad.

im curious to what luongos actual value will be when he is traded.

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Old
10-24-2012, 01:45 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
CORSI has nothing to do with goaltending. It is a metric that measures shots directed towards the opposition goalie versus shots directed towards your own goalie when you are on the ice.
Yup, It's all based around shots taken,blocked shots etc etc etc and it's certainly not something you can point at and say hey, this guy is great or this guy sucks because of it. I'm a huge baseball Sabre guy but I know for a fact that there's not one specific stat that is all telling. Sabremetrics don't work that way and they are mostly probability theory.

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10-24-2012, 01:47 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Luongo was set to be dealt 1 for 1 for Joe Thornton, according to Mike Keenan, but ownership didn't want to take back Thornton's salary.
Hadn't heard that before. Luongo on Boston, weird. Wonder how things would have played out if that happened.

My point still stands that he's less valuable today than he was then. I'm not saying his play is declining yet, but that was six years ago.

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10-24-2012, 01:51 PM
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan Of Every Anton View Post
Hadn't heard that before. Luongo on Boston, weird. Wonder how things would have played out if that happened.

My point still stands that he's less valuable today than he was then. I'm not saying his play is declining yet, but that was six years ago.
Yeah Mike Keenan mentioned it on Hockeycentral a month or two ago (in Canada). That one trade would have significantly changed history for the past few years.

I think the fact that a team was willing to trade a legitimate big top line center for Luongo merely 6 years ago is more telling of his value than what the Canucks gave up for him. Someone like Jake Gardiner who had a nice rookie season, is still far from being a Norris candidate. I don't see why Gardiner, Ashton and a 1 for Luongo is such an unrealistic deal. Luongo is still the best player in the trade, but the Canucks get a nice young useful asset for today and some futures.

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10-24-2012, 01:53 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by FAMOUSfin View Post
Bottom line is that Vancouver would be looking for someone who can play a checking/shutdown role similar to Grabovski and Bozak hasn't shown he'd thrive in that situation since he's been playing against opposing teams top shutdown lines with Kessel rather than their top scoring lines.

Actually, I believe the Canucks are looking for a 3C that is capable defensively at even strength (which Hodgson wasn't) _and_ able to play on the 2nd PP unit (which Hodgson was great at).


They don't necessarily need that C to be a PK stalwart, although it would help if he could be used there from time to time.

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10-24-2012, 01:57 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
In all fairness, I was suggesting
One of Booth/Higgins/Hansen/Raymond
+ Nicklas Jensen
+ Chris Tanev
+ 1st
Ok...but Booth/Raymond is equivalent to our Macarthur that everyone is spitting on,none of the prospects are equal to Gardiner, Schroeder is about equal to Kadri and everyone hates him. So how is your offer worth an "elite" goalie but ours has to have top6 players/top prospects/ and a 1st that pretty much is a lock to be higher than yours.

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Old
10-24-2012, 01:58 PM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Actually, I believe the Canucks are looking for a 3C that is capable defensively at even strength (which Hodgson wasn't) _and_ able to play on the 2nd PP unit (which Hodgson was great at).


They don't necessarily need that C to be a PK stalwart, although it would help if he could be used there from time to time.
And getting Bozak, we'd be getting a player who isn't that good defensively at even strength, and won't be as good as Hodgson was running the 2nd PP unit.

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10-24-2012, 01:59 PM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan Of Every Anton View Post
Hadn't heard that before. Luongo on Boston, weird. Wonder how things would have played out if that happened.

My point still stands that he's less valuable today than he was then. I'm not saying his play is declining yet, but that was six years ago.
That logic doesn't really work though.
You can't use Keenan's decision to trade Luongo as the standard for Luongo's value. I have more faith in Gillis' abilities as a GM to bargain for a reasonable deal that helps our team.

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10-24-2012, 02:01 PM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
Yup, It's all based around shots taken,blocked shots etc etc etc and it's certainly not something you can point at and say hey, this guy is great or this guy sucks because of it. I'm a huge baseball Sabre guy but I know for a fact that there's not one specific stat that is all telling. Sabremetrics don't work that way and they are mostly probability theory.


Actually, advanced stats are a great way to inject some objectivity into an analysis. One stat alone doesn't tell you much, but put together and over a larger sample, and you have a basis for a predictive measure.


Often times far more reliable than the pure subjectivity of fan bias.

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10-24-2012, 02:01 PM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
What's more realistic, the Gardiner+ offer or the Bozak,Frattin etc offers?

Bozak clearly struggled last season in his second full year, I won't even try to deny that. He couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. It would be foolish not to be believe he'd only improve after last season especially coming into his prime. And I'm sorry but corsi isn't the be all, end all.
Gardiner, for the Canucks anyway. You're asking for a star player that will have a huge impact on your team, and you want to give table scraps back. What on earth is realistic about that?

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10-24-2012, 02:02 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
And getting Bozak, we'd be getting a player who isn't that good defensively at even strength, and won't be as good as Hodgson was running the 2nd PP unit.
You should try to watch a game before running your mouth.
Just keep that in mind when the lockout ends.

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10-24-2012, 02:04 PM
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireEverybody View Post
You should try to watch a game before running your mouth.
Just keep that in mind when the lockout ends.
I do watch the games, and I also am an avid believer in advanced statistics. Both what I've seen of Bozak, as well as the advanced statistics support my comments.

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10-24-2012, 02:10 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Ok...but Booth/Raymond is equivalent to our Macarthur that everyone is spitting on,none of the prospects are equal to Gardiner, Schroeder is about equal to Kadri and everyone hates him. So how is your offer worth an "elite" goalie but ours has to have top6 players/top prospects/ and a 1st that pretty much is a lock to be higher than yours.

I don't see the comparison between Booth and Raymond/Macarthur. Booth is bigger, scores at a 1st line G/60 rate, and is very underrated defensively. He is not an equivalent. Raymond sure. But its because we have Raymond that Macarthur is not valued.


Gardiner vs Tanev. Hmmm. I really, really like Tanev's advanced stats, but I'll agree. Gardiner should be valued higher.


As to the rest, you would have to put together a comparable package for it to be a fair argument. People don't take issue with the prospects, just the overall value of the package. That is definitely lacking.

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10-24-2012, 02:11 PM
  #242
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Let's get back on track here a bit.

We had a lot of people liking Bozak Frattin, Coulborne and Ashton. I would really like to flip either Ashton for a better defensive prospect, obviously not Gards or Rielly. But the basics are totally there, can we discuss a bit what would be available?

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10-24-2012, 02:13 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I do watch the games, and I also am an avid believer in advanced statistics. Both what I've seen of Bozak, as well as the advanced statistics support my comments.
Convinced me.
Gards, Finn, Biggs, and a first it is then.

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10-24-2012, 02:16 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Yeah Mike Keenan mentioned it on Hockeycentral a month or two ago (in Canada). That one trade would have significantly changed history for the past few years.

I think the fact that a team was willing to trade a legitimate big top line center for Luongo merely 6 years ago is more telling of his value than what the Canucks gave up for him. Someone like Jake Gardiner who had a nice rookie season, is still far from being a Norris candidate. I don't see why Gardiner, Ashton and a 1 for Luongo is such an unrealistic deal. Luongo is still the best player in the trade, but the Canucks get a nice young useful asset for today and some futures.
Because it is unrealistic. He maybe the best player in the deal but on a short term basis solely because of his age/contract and having Luongo doesn't guarantee playoffs either. If the Leafs are looking for long-term success then they should stay away from Luongo especially if it involves a prospect like Gardiner and 1st round pick

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10-24-2012, 02:18 PM
  #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H0MER View Post
Because it is unrealistic. He maybe the best player in the deal but on a short term basis solely because of his age/contract and having Luongo doesn't guarantee playoffs either. If the Leafs are looking for long-term success then they should stay away from Luongo especially if it involves a prospect like Gardiner and 1st round pick
And the Canucks should not trade Luongo if all we're being offered are spare parts like Bozak or MacArthur. Simple as that. The two teams can't come to an agreement then the Leafs don't get Luongo and the Canucks don't give Luongo away for your spare parts. I think we can all agree on that.

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10-24-2012, 02:22 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
And the Canucks should not trade Luongo if all we're being offered are spare parts like Bozak or MacArthur. Simple as that. The two teams can't come to an agreement then the Leafs don't get Luongo and the Canucks don't give Luongo away for your spare parts. I think we can all agree on that.
The spare part is Luo. lol
Hints you are not going to get what you think you should.

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10-24-2012, 02:27 PM
  #247
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The spare part is Luo. lol
Hints you are not going to get what you think you should.
You mean we get offered scraps and end up having to keep our twice vezina nominated goalie? Quelle domage.

Enjoy Reimer/Scrivens and the combined 5.00 GAA or what ever they will average.

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10-24-2012, 02:28 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
And the Canucks should not trade Luongo if all we're being offered are spare parts like Bozak or MacArthur. Simple as that. The two teams can't come to an agreement then the Leafs don't get Luongo and the Canucks don't give Luongo away for your spare parts. I think we can all agree on that.
GMMG is wise enough to know that, if a Luongo trade doesn't benefit his team he will/should just roll with Luongo till the trade deadline perhaps at that point some desperate teams would overpay for Lu.

Any Leaf fan would be lying if they said they wouldn't want Luongo, although not a guarantee for a playoff spot lock, he would drastically improve our chances, having said I just don't see Leafs and the Canucks good trading partners if the asking price is around Gardiner and 1st.

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10-24-2012, 02:32 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by H0MER View Post
GMMG is wise enough to know that, if a Luongo trade doesn't benefit his team he will/should just roll with Luongo till the trade deadline perhaps at that point some desperate teams would overpay for Lu.

Any Leaf fan would be lying if they said they wouldn't want Luongo, although not a guarantee for a playoff spot lock, he would drastically improve our chances, having said I just don't see Leafs and the Canucks good trading partners if the asking price is around Gardiner and 1st.
I think the asking price should be around Gardiner and a 1st.

I also think the Leafs need to decide if they want to make a run for the playoffs/shot at the Cup this year or next year, or if you prefer to miss the playoffs but accumulate more high draft picks and draft potential future cornerstones of your organization. Either direction isn't a bad move, but would drastically alter your position when discussing trades.

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10-24-2012, 02:40 PM
  #250
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Enjoy Reimer/Scrivens and the combined 5.00 GAA or what ever they will average.
Will do.
Enjoy cap hell or giving him away for free plus paying his salary.

New CBA is going to bring the lols

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