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4th most imactful player

View Poll Results: 4th?
Fisher 0 0%
Phillips 5 8.06%
Neil 1 1.61%
Hossa 2 3.23%
Havlat 1 1.61%
Lalime 0 0%
Redden 20 32.26%
Chara 0 0%
Tugnutt 2 3.23%
Karlsson 20 32.26%
Kelly 0 0%
Volchenkov 0 0%
Bonk 0 0%
Vermette 0 0%
Michalek 0 0%
Cunneyworth 0 0%
McEachern 0 0%
Emery 0 0%
Daigle 1 1.61%
Heatley 10 16.13%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-23-2012, 11:23 PM
  #26
ReginKarlssonLehner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
Or, you know, some people remember how we used to have a contending roster and some very valuable pieces...

Karlsson very well should become one of the most impactful players for our organization. However, we can't judge him based on the future and one dominant season is simply too small a sample size to negate the impact of other star players playing a decade of hockey here.
Contending roster with some very valuable pieces? So? How does that add to their individual impacts on our roster if there were stronger players then that of last year? If Karlsson was on the Senators backend then and played like he did last year, he would have cracked 90 points or higher, especially due to increased scoring.

Only person I can see challenging Karlsson is Heatley who I'd actually put at par but remember his negative approach to this team is also an impact. Heatley is first ever Senator to touch 50 goals and he did it twice. Also, someone earlier said he leads Sens in points, that's incorrect, he is tied with Alfredsson for that title. Keep in mind, Alfie did it in fewer games.

I understand the consideration of number of years being applied but Karlsson is the most accomplished Senator in terms of hardware, that alone should count for something in the sense of huge advantage.

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Old
10-23-2012, 11:29 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Contending roster with some very valuable pieces? So? How does that add to their individual impacts on our roster if there were stronger players then that of last year? If Karlsson was on the Senators backend then and played like he did last year, he would have cracked 90 points or higher, especially due to increased scoring.

Only person I can see challenging Karlsson is Heatley who I'd actually put at par but remember his negative approach to this team is also an impact. Heatley is first ever Senator to touch 50 goals and he did it twice. Also, someone earlier said he leads Sens in points, that's incorrect, he is tied with Alfredsson for that title. Keep in mind, Alfie did it in fewer games.

I understand the consideration of number of years being applied but Karlsson is the most accomplished Senator in terms of hardware, that alone should count for something in the sense of huge advantage.
a) Hasek has some pretty decent hardware.
b) What if Karlsson gets injured in Finland and is never close to his 11-12 self again?

If you're talking about single-season dominance, Hasek and Duchesne have to be way up there. If they aren't and you're ranking Karlsson this high, then you're making some very strong assumptions about what Karlsson will do in the future.

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Old
10-24-2012, 10:51 AM
  #28
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Redden

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Old
10-24-2012, 11:45 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Lol, people seem to be forgetting that for a couple years before Karlsson we brought in the likes of CAMPOLI, BRENDAN ****ING BELL and gave them top minutes to be that offensive weapon. We were a wreck and our offense suffered. Karlsson changed all of that and not just his impact last year. Karlsson also went from being help from the back to BEING THE OFFENSE.

Karlsson's personal accomplishments last year overshadow his accomplishments with the Sens. We became lethal cause of him. He was on the ice for most goals scored by ANY PLAYER in the league. And youngest to be top defense man since ORR.

It's Karlsson, it's not close.
When on earth was Campoli or Bell given top minutes?

Bell's one year here was as a PP specialist, and he averaged about 17:43 a game (7th on the team for D). Sure he was 3rd in PP time, but that was the only part of his game that was NHL level so why wouldn't he be used there? His 15 PP pts was good for 45th in the league for Dmen that year despite only playing 53 games.

A better case could be made for Campoli but he topped out 18:58 mins/g with Ottawa (his season avg was 19:32 because he played more with NYI) in his first year, good 4th on the team barely ahead of Brian Lee. Campoli received 2nd pairing PP time, so again, not really top minutes.

Anyhow, I'll stick with Redden, with the caveat that he will likely be surpassed by Karlsson. Redden probably gave us 5 straight years of top 10 2-way defensive play, and to me 5 years of very good to elite, is better than 1 year of elite. If you were to as who had the biggest single season impact, Karlsson wins easily.

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Old
10-24-2012, 11:50 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by source View Post
a) Hasek has some pretty decent hardware.
b) What if Karlsson gets injured in Finland and is never close to his 11-12 self again?

If you're talking about single-season dominance, Hasek and Duchesne have to be way up there. If they aren't and you're ranking Karlsson this high, then you're making some very strong assumptions about what Karlsson will do in the future.
a) Not with the Senators, he doesn't.
b) He'd still be the most accomplished Senator in terms of hardware. If he had the years that guys like Phillips do, he'd be challenging Alfie for the #1 spot. He doesn't, which is why a few other guys went before him.

I also agree Hasek should be considered. His impact was huge while he played and huge went he flaked out on us, essentially making us not-a-contender. That's a big impact.

Duchesne had a pretty big impact too. Outside of his regular season stats for those 2 seasons, his goal against Buffalo sent the Sens to the playoffs for the first time. For what it's worth, I have Duchesne above people like Chara, Phillips, Neil & Fisher (ie: Good people that were there for a long time but never had any hardware nor defining moments with the team) . I actually had my whole list on the first page of one of the threads for this listing and am just voting following that list.

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10-24-2012, 12:31 PM
  #31
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Redden's impact was felt in the stands mostly by middle aged mothers.

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Old
10-24-2012, 12:46 PM
  #32
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Karlsson has had arguably two good years. Redden was a franchise cornerstone for years. I don't understand how they're neck and neck. This is blatant proof of the recency effect.

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10-24-2012, 03:02 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Contending roster with some very valuable pieces? So? How does that add to their individual impacts on our roster if there were stronger players then that of last year? If Karlsson was on the Senators backend then and played like he did last year, he would have cracked 90 points or higher, especially due to increased scoring.

Only person I can see challenging Karlsson is Heatley who I'd actually put at par but remember his negative approach to this team is also an impact. Heatley is first ever Senator to touch 50 goals and he did it twice. Also, someone earlier said he leads Sens in points, that's incorrect, he is tied with Alfredsson for that title. Keep in mind, Alfie did it in fewer games.

I understand the consideration of number of years being applied but Karlsson is the most accomplished Senator in terms of hardware, that alone should count for something in the sense of huge advantage.
You're acting like Karlsson's got the hardware of a Lidstrom. He has a single trophy to his name. He's had one year with a major impact on this franchise. Redden was a cornerstone for a decade; that's 10 years of impact, at least half of that was as the #1D on a contending team. I don't see how one great season outweights almost decade as our #1 in terms of impact on a franchise.

Not only that, but you're arguing Karlsson would've put up 90 points during Redden's heyday. The majority of Redden's career with Ottawa was pre-lockout, when scoring was still really low and you had guys like Ray Bourque (briefly), Scott Stevens, Chris Chelios, Chris Pronger, Nicklas Lidstrom, and Al MacInnis dominating the league defensively. This was an era when Lidstrom wasn't even winning Norrises, for ****'s sake. Karlsson wouldn't have stood a chance at winning the Norris against those guys, much less a lock to hit 90 points.

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Old
10-24-2012, 07:18 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
When on earth was Campoli or Bell given top minutes?

Bell's one year here was as a PP specialist, and he averaged about 17:43 a game (7th on the team for D). Sure he was 3rd in PP time, but that was the only part of his game that was NHL level so why wouldn't he be used there? His 15 PP pts was good for 45th in the league for Dmen that year despite only playing 53 games.

A better case could be made for Campoli but he topped out 18:58 mins/g with Ottawa (his season avg was 19:32 because he played more with NYI) in his first year, good 4th on the team barely ahead of Brian Lee. Campoli received 2nd pairing PP time, so again, not really top minutes.

Anyhow, I'll stick with Redden, with the caveat that he will likely be surpassed by Karlsson. Redden probably gave us 5 straight years of top 10 2-way defensive play, and to me 5 years of very good to elite, is better than 1 year of elite. If you were to as who had the biggest single season impact, Karlsson wins easily.
I meant top minutes for their level of play. They do not deserve those minutes let alone be our source of PPQ weapon. I wouldn't have either on my team if I was building a Stanley Cup contending defense let alone be our most reliable offensive threat.

Anyhow, you stuck to the aspect of my argument that wasn't the basis of my intended discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darglor View Post
a) Not with the Senators, he doesn't.
b) He'd still be the most accomplished Senator in terms of hardware. If he had the years that guys like Phillips do, he'd be challenging Alfie for the #1 spot. He doesn't, which is why a few other guys went before him.

I also agree Hasek should be considered. His impact was huge while he played and huge went he flaked out on us, essentially making us not-a-contender. That's a big impact.

Duchesne had a pretty big impact too. Outside of his regular season stats for those 2 seasons, his goal against Buffalo sent the Sens to the playoffs for the first time. For what it's worth, I have Duchesne above people like Chara, Phillips, Neil & Fisher (ie: Good people that were there for a long time but never had any hardware nor defining moments with the team) . I actually had my whole list on the first page of one of the threads for this listing and am just voting following that list.
Great post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
You're acting like Karlsson's got the hardware of a Lidstrom. He has a single trophy to his name. He's had one year with a major impact on this franchise. Redden was a cornerstone for a decade; that's 10 years of impact, at least half of that was as the #1D on a contending team. I don't see how one great season outweights almost decade as our #1 in terms of impact on a franchise.

Not only that, but you're arguing Karlsson would've put up 90 points during Redden's heyday. The majority of Redden's career with Ottawa was pre-lockout, when scoring was still really low and you had guys like Ray Bourque (briefly), Scott Stevens, Chris Chelios, Chris Pronger, Nicklas Lidstrom, and Al MacInnis dominating the league defensively. This was an era when Lidstrom wasn't even winning Norrises, for ****'s sake. Karlsson wouldn't have stood a chance at winning the Norris against those guys, much less a lock to hit 90 points.
Lol, we are talking about impact on the Senators therefore the one trophy he has is the best of any Senator. Yes Alfredsson won they Calder but, with all due respect to the number 1 impact player on this list, Karlsson's performance is a tad more impressive. If Karlsson had Lidstrom level trophy than we'd be comparing his impact to every defense man all-time, lol.

I also was talking about the year we made the finals for the 90 points, notice I said contending team referring to the 07 run because that was the only time we actually were a contending threat in the playoffs for a cup, besides 03. Should have been more specific there and saved everyone time.

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Old
10-25-2012, 02:04 PM
  #35
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First you have to ask yourself, which all time Senators were the power bottoms? Then go from there. It's well known that power bottoms are the ones generating most of the impact.

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