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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part V: The "Back to square one" Edition

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10-24-2012, 02:57 PM
  #601
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Originally Posted by AceintheSpace View Post
The NHLPA/NHL wouldnt do it but cutting the two biggest losers would help.

Glendale is only 10 miles from downtown Phoenix. Cities out there arent as centralized as here, so I dont think where the arena is matters. Phoenix area is all sprawl. It also has to be done right (arena community that is).
The arena is on the other side of Glendale from the city. I believe it's closer to 20 miles. On a weeknight, that's probably a 30-40 minute drive if traffic is anywhere near decent (it's Phoenix, so probably not). It's also on the other side of Phoenix from the other three major suburbs (Scottsdale, Tempe, Mesa). Everything I've read has said that the location of the arena is one of the biggest problems out there.

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10-24-2012, 03:01 PM
  #602
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The arena is on the other side of Glendale from the city. I believe it's closer to 20 miles. On a weeknight, that's probably a 30-40 minute drive if traffic is anywhere near decent (it's Phoenix, so probably not). It's also on the other side of Phoenix from the other three major suburbs (Scottsdale, Tempe, Mesa). Everything I've read has said that the location of the arena is one of the biggest problems out there.

****. It is.

So then yeah, they ****ed that up.

Wrong community for an arena.

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10-24-2012, 03:04 PM
  #603
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Interesting wording here.

Anytime the NHL is in trouble financially the go-to move is a shameless money grab from the players' piece of the pie.

"Reduce costs elsewhere" is an awfully nice way to put a redundant practice without one iota of creativity.
Where else can they cut costs?

They can stop building new stadiums, they can stop marketing promotions, they can stop paying the concessions people as much money, etc.

I'd rather take it from the group that is getting 57% of revenues too.

No doubt the NHL needs to explore how to increase revenues for all teams across the board. Which is why I jokingly suggested that the league hire Jerry Jones to teach owners how to market their team better.

But there's also very little doubt that there are haves and havenots in hockey. Yes, I would support moving those teams and increasing revenue sharing to a reasonable degree.

But in the absence of record profits, and with current distribution at 57%, the players don't have a leg to stand on.

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10-24-2012, 03:04 PM
  #604
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Even Florida.

They play on the edge of the ****ing Everglades in Sunrise. 40 miles from downtown Miami.

You dont have to play in the city center, but put it where its at least accessible.

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10-24-2012, 03:08 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by AceintheSpace View Post
Even Florida.

They play on the edge of the ****ing Everglades in Sunrise. 40 miles from downtown Miami.

You dont have to play in the city center, but put it where its at least accessible.
Florida was an attempt to put the arena in a place accessible to Miami, Ft Lauderdale and West Palm Beach. As a result, it's not really close to any of them.

However, I think the Florida situation is still a better one than Phoenix's.

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10-24-2012, 03:09 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by mschmidt64 View Post
Where else can they cut costs?

They can stop building new stadiums, they can stop marketing promotions, they can stop paying the concessions people as much money, etc.

I'd rather take it from the group that is getting 57% of revenues too.

No doubt the NHL needs to explore how to increase revenues for all teams across the board. Which is why I jokingly suggested that the league hire Jerry Jones to teach owners how to market their team better.

But there's also very little doubt that there are haves and havenots in hockey. Yes, I would support moving those teams and increasing revenue sharing to a reasonable degree.

But in the absence of record profits, and with current distribution at 57%, the players don't have a leg to stand on.
I think it'd be more effective to look into more bureaucratic stuff. Also, not necessarily spending less on marketing, but spending it more wisely. I don't think anyone is under the impression the players should stay at 57%. It's not a sustainable model for the league, for any sports league. However, that doesn't imply an immediate, emergency style, reduction to 50%. It has to be in between. The proposal ignores the problems in the NHL, but if it's what the league wants, it doesn't make sense to be so hardheaded about it.

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10-24-2012, 03:12 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Florida was an attempt to put the arena in a place accessible to Miami, Ft Lauderdale and West Palm Beach. As a result, it's not really close to any of them.

However, I think the Florida situation is still a better one than Phoenix's.
Right in Fort Lauderdale wouldve been best.

The Miami metro isnt even 20 miles wide. Its all along the coast. WPB to the north. Miami to the south. Ft Lauderdale wouldve been best. Still better than Phoenix... they should relocate to Seattle. Great arena plan there.

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10-24-2012, 03:22 PM
  #608
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Right in Fort Lauderdale wouldve been best.

The Miami metro isnt even 20 miles wide. Its all along the coast. WPB to the north. Miami to the south. Ft Lauderdale wouldve been best. Still better than Phoenix... they should relocate to Seattle. Great arena plan there.
I'm not sure why they didn't. The only thing I can think of is that, at least at the time, there might have been a lack of developable land in Ft Lauderdale itself. It was built in the late 90s when a lot of commercial real estate was already in use. Things are pretty crowded down there. I actually used to spend every Christmas break within sight of the arena in Sunrise when I was at my grandparent's place in Lauderhill.

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10-24-2012, 03:31 PM
  #609
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Where else can they cut costs?.
In the real world, if a business unit isnt doing well at work, usually the first inclination from management isnt to take the employees' salaries.

The NHL's situation is completely muddled - from ridiculous markets, to poorly run franchises and, yes, to overpaid players.

Are you implying theres nowhere else to cut costs other than the player's salaries? Because that would make you as obtuse as Gary Bettman.

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10-24-2012, 03:33 PM
  #610
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2 hours later after im done with the gym and there is still no update, not even a tweet....shocking

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10-24-2012, 03:52 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
In the real world, if a business unit isnt doing well at work, usually the first inclination from management isnt to take the employees' salaries.

The NHL's situation is completely muddled - from ridiculous markets, to poorly run franchises and, yes, to overpaid players.

Are you implying theres nowhere else to cut costs other than the player's salaries? Because that would make you as obtuse as Gary Bettman.
No, I'm implying that when one aspect of a business is sucking up 57% of total revenues, it is logical and optimal to see if you can cut costs there before you cut back on spending on the minimum wage employees running your concession stands, or cut back on stadium costs (since better stadiums makes for a better fan experience), or by cutting back on marketing, since that brings in more business.

I mean, I'm sure there are other ways. I'm just saying it's reasonable to seek to cut those salary costs.

You said a failing business doesn't seek to cut it's employees pay first. Well, I'm not so sure that's true, for one thing. And a second thing is, the NHL players aren't a normal business structure. In not many other industries does labor account for over 50% over your overhead.

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10-24-2012, 03:55 PM
  #612
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Originally Posted by AceintheSpace View Post
Right in Fort Lauderdale wouldve been best.

The Miami metro isnt even 20 miles wide. Its all along the coast. WPB to the north. Miami to the south. Ft Lauderdale wouldve been best. Still better than Phoenix... they should relocate to Seattle. Great arena plan there.
Florida has the advantage that the arena is right off I-95. It's really not hard for residents of the above mentioned cities to jump on 95 and get to Sunrise relatively quickly. They don't have to go through downtown work traffic ala Phoenix.

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10-24-2012, 04:05 PM
  #613
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It's a little more than that, eco. If they are gone for more than one season, I am more than likely done as a fan of the NHL.
First of all it will never be more than one season and 99.9% of us will be right back in our seat whenever they drop the puck.

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10-24-2012, 04:11 PM
  #614
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
In the real world, if a business unit isnt doing well at work, usually the first inclination from management isnt to take the employees' salaries.
It isn't?

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10-24-2012, 04:13 PM
  #615
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Originally Posted by mschmidt64 View Post
No, I'm implying that when one aspect of a business is sucking up 57% of total revenues, it is logical and optimal to see if you can cut costs there before you cut back on spending on the minimum wage employees running your concession stands, or cut back on stadium costs (since better stadiums makes for a better fan experience), or by cutting back on marketing, since that brings in more business.

I mean, I'm sure there are other ways. I'm just saying it's reasonable to seek to cut those salary costs.

You said a failing business doesn't seek to cut it's employees pay first. Well, I'm not so sure that's true, for one thing. And a second thing is, the NHL players aren't a normal business structure. In not many other industries does labor account for over 50% over your overhead.
I said that cutting employee salaries usually isn't the first inclination - let alone the repeated inclination if anything goes awry, which is the NHL's MO.

And yes, I agree that the NHL's business structure is different - by saying so, it completely contradicts your first paragraph. The players are not just the main attraction, they are THE attraction for the league and the reason it makes money at all...unless you think people are going to show up to watch an empty sheet of ice. Do they deserve 57%? No, but they do deserve half of the proceeds. Without them, theres nothing, which is very unique in any business.

I am not privy to the NHL's books, I dont know where else they can cut costs. But I do know that the NHL has had 3 lockouts in the last 17 years, with each one being a bigger gratuitous money grab from the players than the last. Thats shameless.


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10-24-2012, 04:17 PM
  #616
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It isn't?
Of course it depends, but if we're not talking about a leveraged buy-out or something, then yes, I like to believe that other cost cutting options are explored in most cases before heads start to roll.

Bad example though because I cant find any parallel to the NHL where:

1. This cost cutting procedure is being done while Bettman crows about his record revenues

2. the go-to protocol, every time, is to cut employee compensation.

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10-24-2012, 04:22 PM
  #617
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2 hours later after im done with the gym and there is still no update, not even a tweet....shocking
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10-24-2012, 04:24 PM
  #618
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Of course it depends, but if we're not talking about a leveraged buy-out or something, then yes, I like to believe that other cost cutting options are explored in most cases before heads start to roll.

Bad example though because I cant find any parallel to the NHL where:

1. This cost cutting procedure is being done while Bettman crows about his record revenues

2. the go-to protocol, every time, is to cut employee compensation.
In my experience, cutting employee costs is indeed the go-to option for a struggling business. Wages are the expense that can be controlled the most closely.

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10-24-2012, 04:31 PM
  #619
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Wildly inflated salaries are the root cause IMO.. Hockey isn't football, baseball or basketball in the United States. Yet that's where most NHL teams are...

Teams in Florida, Phoenix and other locations can't afford to pay player salaries, like the NY and Canadian teams that draw do. Player salaries drive up cost across the board, from ticket prices, merchandise, food etc.. Until players realize (owners as well for signing/paying players) that they're lucky to be playing in North America, as compared to Siberia. If It's all about money (which it is) then maybe the KHL should be their destination, because most US based teams just can't afford the salaries to survive..

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10-24-2012, 04:35 PM
  #620
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2 hours later after im done with the gym and there is still no update, not even a tweet....shocking
Thinly veiled brag about spending 2 hours at the gym?

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10-24-2012, 04:41 PM
  #621
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Thinly veiled brag about spending 2 hours at the gym?
Haha absolutely not. I finally had a day off in 12 days. I was bored all day and rather than sit at home watching tv or expecting any movement in the labor talks I figured I'd workout. Of course I wasn't surprised to see there was no news. I'm going to need to pick up another sport....effing basketball ugh.

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10-24-2012, 05:48 PM
  #622
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I said that cutting employee salaries usually isn't the first inclination - let alone the repeated inclination if anything goes awry, which is the NHL's MO.

And yes, I agree that the NHL's business structure is different - by saying so, it completely contradicts your first paragraph. The players are not just the main attraction, they are THE attraction for the league and the reason it makes money at all...unless you think people are going to show up to watch an empty sheet of ice. Do they deserve 57%? No, but they do deserve half of the proceeds. Without them, theres nothing, which is very unique in any business.

I am not privy to the NHL's books, I dont know where else they can cut costs. But I do know that the NHL has had 3 lockouts in the last 17 years, with each one being a bigger gratuitous money grab from the players than the last. Thats shameless.
I don't agree. The players are still getting a better deal than the NFL and NBA.

I think the owners have agreed that it makes sense for the players to get 50-50 right now.

But I think the players did not propose a CBA where they get 50-50. The proposals I saw showed them getting more than half.

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10-24-2012, 06:03 PM
  #623
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I don't agree. The players are still getting a better deal than the NFL and NBA.

I think the owners have agreed that it makes sense for the players to get 50-50 right now.

But I think the players did not propose a CBA where they get 50-50. The proposals I saw showed them getting more than half.
One day, the NHL will get a commissioner that will realize this sport is NOT the NBA, or especially, the NFL.

It is a niche sport with a small, but loyal following -- that just to happen to have, in my opinion, players that lay themselves on the line every night more than any other big 4 sport.

Bettman's bravado and reckless expansion early in his tenure are only compounded by his constant money grabs.

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10-24-2012, 06:10 PM
  #624
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They can't even agree why there was no meeting today

English translation of an article written by Renaud Lavoie

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At the same time, Steve Fehr, who was in contact with Bill Daly told him that the league should not conclude that by adjusting the definition of "make-whole" there was an agreement on the rest of the collective agreement.

The interpretation of Bill Daly is quite different. In an email, the Deputy Commissioner of the NHL told me that he refused to meet with the players' association because Steve Fehr told him that the league should not have the illusion that the negotiations would be the latest offering in the NHL.
Lavoie thinks a full 82 game season is still possible

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Even if the day of 25 October will pass without an agreement for a 82-game season begins November 2, this does not mean that there is no hope.

But time is running out. It is essential that both parties meet at the negotiating table and an agreement occurs by 2 or 3 November. If the talks are in neutral, as is currently the case, there will be no hope possible.

Allow me to doubt it. An agreement is really possible, but it will require both parties to plunder their pride for the good of the industry.
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10-24-2012, 06:14 PM
  #625
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
One day, the NHL will get a commissioner that will realize this sport is NOT the NBA, or especially, the NFL.

It is a niche sport with a small, but loyal following -- that just to happen to have, in my opinion, players that lay themselves on the line every night more than any other big 4 sport.

Bettman's bravado and reckless expansion early in his tenure are only compounded by his constant money grabs.
Yeah. I agree but that doesn't mean it's a successful business model. 50/50 is fair and they've been making well over that. If they make that for the next 4 CBAs it'll be fair.

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