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Why is Luongo being run out of town with such stellar numbers? Trying to convince others of his value doesn't cut it when you know if he were that good Vancouver would just keep him.
And around we go!
Whats that a day/day & a half run through between the same question being asked?
This isn't gonna end well for both Vancouver and whoever gets Luongo. Pretty much, both sides will not be happy with the return, maybe it that one side gave up too much, or the other feels it didn't get enough. I have a feeling it'll end up like the Hodgson trade. Not enough value coming back.
Considering the strides that Kassian has made I think most Canuck fans have come around to that deal.
Ok...but Booth/Raymond is equivalent to our Macarthur that everyone is spitting on,none of the prospects are equal to Gardiner, Schroeder is about equal to Kadri and everyone hates him. So how is your offer worth an "elite" goalie but ours has to have top6 players/top prospects/ and a 1st that pretty much is a lock to be higher than yours.
In all fairness I would say the equivalent to my "canucks offer" would be something like Biggs, Frattin, 1st (i said assuming it was 10-20) and Bozak
(tanev = frattin, biggs = jensen, 1sts = wash (again assuming pick is like 10-20) and Bozak = Higgins).
Oh he's most definitely a "star". How people view him comes down to his entire body of work, not just one season. He is often mentioned as a star, and sometimes a franchise goalie.
Basically, the label argument will get you nowhere because people can point to sources where he is referred to with that moniker.
Also, I find it interesting you are using stats while dismissing them when it comes to Bozak's defensive numbers. Odd.
It's not odd, Bozaks numbers were referring to corsi, which I take with a grain of salt. Interpret it how you wish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean
Also, referring to the report that now Ashton is off the table and Burke is reluctant to give up Frattin...
Burke will never learn it seems. He devalues the goaltending position and I'm not surprised a deal wasn't concluded between the two teams before the lock out.
I don't know why Burke would be reluctant to trade Ashton unless him and the management see something I don't. Burke may devalue goaltending but maybe he still thinks Reimer is the man. He was pretty good prior to the injury. Had it not been for that injury, we likely aren't even discussing Toronto as an option.
It's not odd, Bozaks numbers were referring to corsi, which I take with a grain of salt. Interpret it how you wish.
I don't know why Burke would be reluctant to trade Ashton unless him and the management see something I don't. Burke may devalue goaltending but maybe he still thinks Reimer is the man. He was pretty good prior to the injury. Had it not been for that injury, we likely aren't even discussing Toronto as an option.
Just because you don't understand Corsi numbers and advanced statistics in hockey doesn't make those stats meaningless. People like Mike Gillis put a lot of stock in those metrics.
All that equates to is that he has never won a Vezina and is Canadian.
You forgot the part about him being 33 years old and locked down for a decade.
I can't wait for Lu to get traded; just to see the 360 you guys will pull. Lu will go from elite to zip. See: Hodgson trade.
If you mean 360, then yes, I think Canucks fans will continue to rate Luongo as one of the best goalies in the league. I think you're more likely to have a laugh at Canucks fans bellyaching about how we don't have him anymore.
Oh wait, did you mean the "180" we will reputedly pull? Slander and lies you say, BayStBullies. Like KillerWhale said, we got excited about filling a positional need. People questioned Hodgson's size and character (or the character of those representing him), but never his talent. And I think, unless Luongo goes to the media and craps all over the city, the team or the fans in Vancouver, he'll be missed and cheered when he comes around as a visitor.
(...As long as he gets traded out east and we never see him in the finals.)
Just because you don't understand Corsi numbers and advanced statistics in hockey doesn't make those stats meaningless. People like Mike Gillis put a lot of stock in those metrics.
LOL I don't think you have a clue. I know more baseball Sabremetrics then you could comprehend. I fully understand them. The thing you seem to not comprehend is that they are practical theory. Get it through your head.I have been studying Sabre stats essentially since their inception, they are very complicated formulas. You're the same guy who thinks you're getting Gardiner and first round pick for Luongo. So no, I'm not the one who needs to understand. I'm gonna stop here although I'm sure I'm getting a mod warning. I apologize if I made this sound like a personal attack.
Last edited by Man Bear Pig: 10-24-2012 at 08:37 PM.
Roberto Luongo, a top 5 NHL goalie, is a valuable asset.
When he was traded from the Panthers to the Canucks I would say he was a top 5 goalie and worth a valuable asset. However back then the Canucks gave up Todd Bertuzzi, Bryan Allen and Alex Auld. Now I think it's fair to say the only big name player besides Luongo was Bertuzzi, however that was after the Steve Moore incident and I think he needed a change to play somewhere else. Plus the Panthers didn't even get a 1st round pick.
Today Luongo is 33 years old and is signed to a much worse contract compared to the last time he was traded. He might still be a very good Goalie, however he is not worth what Gillis wants.
When he was traded from the Panthers to the Canucks I would say he was a top 5 goalie and worth a valuable asset. However back then the Canucks gave up Todd Bertuzzi, Bryan Allen and Alex Auld. Now I think it's fair to say the only big name player besides Luongo was Bertuzzi, however that was after the Steve Moore incident and I think he needed a change to play somewhere else. Plus the Panthers didn't even get a 1st round pick.
Today Luongo is 33 years old and is signed to a much worse contract compared to the last time he was traded. He might still be a very good Goalie, however he is not worth what Gillis wants.
Luongo wasn't signed to a contract when he was traded, and we didn't know if he would even sign here. Nonis reportedly had a subsequent trade lined up to flip Luongo for Vincent Lecavalier if Luongo wasn't willing to sign here.
Also, it's been reported by Mike Keenan himself that he had a deal to trade Luongo to Florida for Joe Thornton, but that was nixed by Panther ownership because they didn't want to take on salary.
Keenan's ability to get a great return for Luongo was hampered by ownership's unwillingness to take a big salary player back, otherwise you would have seen an even bigger deal.
Luongo wasn't signed to a contract when he was traded, and we didn't know if he would even sign here. Nonis reportedly had a subsequent trade lined up to flip Luongo for Vincent Lecavalier if Luongo wasn't willing to sign here.
Also, it's been reported by Mike Keenan himself that he had a deal to trade Luongo to Florida for Joe Thornton, but that was nixed by Panther ownership because they didn't want to take on salary.
Keenan's ability to get a great return for Luongo was hampered by ownership's unwillingness to take a big salary player back, otherwise you would have seen an even bigger deal.
What happened or almost happened in June 2006 shouldn't have any impact on Luongo being traded in 2012. The fact is Luongo is now older and on a horrible contract, so I'm going to say again that's why Mike Gillis won't get the type of package he wants in return for him.
What happened or almost happened in June 2006 shouldn't have any impact on Luongo being traded in 2012. The fact is he is still older and on a horrible contract.
Which is why we're not asking for Joe Thornton. And as has been mentioned, it may not be perfect, but it's not a horrible contract.
When he was traded from the Panthers to the Canucks I would say he was a top 5 goalie and worth a valuable asset. However back then the Canucks gave up Todd Bertuzzi, Bryan Allen and Alex Auld. Now I think it's fair to say the only big name player besides Luongo was Bertuzzi, however that was after the Steve Moore incident and I think he needed a change to play somewhere else. Plus the Panthers didn't even get a 1st round pick.
Today Luongo is 33 years old and is signed to a much worse contract compared to the last time he was traded. He might still be a very good Goalie, however he is not worth what Gillis wants.
This is exactly my point, no one is denying Luongo is a very good goaltender. When the Canucks traded for him he was 26 and entering his prime but he's 33 now and with his age and contract the value will only depreciate which doesn't mean he'll be traded for scraps and conversely he wont fetch you a top prospect or 1st round pick either. Lu will still get you an impact player, salary dump and perhaps a 2nd round pick.
When he was traded from the Panthers to the Canucks I would say he was a top 5 goalie and worth a valuable asset. However back then the Canucks gave up Todd Bertuzzi, Bryan Allen and Alex Auld. Now I think it's fair to say the only big name player besides Luongo was Bertuzzi, however that was after the Steve Moore incident and I think he needed a change to play somewhere else. Plus the Panthers didn't even get a 1st round pick.
Today Luongo is 33 years old and is signed to a much worse contract compared to the last time he was traded. He might still be a very good Goalie, however he is not worth what Gillis wants.
Why are you comparing the trade market from 2006 to now? Of course values will be different in a completely different decade of hockey.
And also, nobody knows what Gillis wants in a trade. We can only speculate around the few media rumblings we hear from. It's strange when posters assume the value.
This is exactly my point, no one is denying Luongo is a very good goaltender. When the Canucks traded for him he was 26 and entering his prime but he's 33 now and with his age and contract the value will only depreciate which doesn't mean he'll be traded for scraps and conversely he wont fetch you a top prospect or 1st round pick either. Lu will still get you an impact player, salary dump and perhaps a 2nd round pick.
It's a terrible point. You don't compare Luongo's value to the market in 2006.
