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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Hamilton or Toronto2/Markham

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Hamilton 107 47.56%
GTA2/Markham 118 52.44%
Voters: 225. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-24-2012, 09:46 PM
  #126
Stanley Foobrick
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Originally Posted by Ryan34222 View Post
Haha like the other 29 votes mater when it comes to TML's territory..
.... unless the new Leafs owners feel there is money to be made from televising this other team.

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10-24-2012, 09:52 PM
  #127
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.... unless the new Leafs owners feel there is money to be made from televising this other team.
I don't see why they wouldn't.

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10-24-2012, 10:05 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Blue'sClues View Post
.... unless the new Leafs owners feel there is money to be made from televising this other team.
This is probably true. Ive given up hope for Hamilton unfortunately. The ships sailed.

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10-24-2012, 10:15 PM
  #129
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... you do realize that these two statements in the same post are in diametrical opposition to one another, right?
You do realize the difference between content rights and ownership, right?

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10-24-2012, 10:45 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
We've got the Phoenix bankruptcy court evidence!
Download the PDF: http://www.bizofhockey.com/index.php...=236&Itemid=75

EXPANSION: Bottom of page 3 - Favorable vote of 3/4ths of the league's members. So 23 yes votes.

Relocation is addressed in the bylaws, I believe.



Sure, but why put Markham and Hamilton in the East ahead of DET and CBJ? You could put Hamilton and/or Markham in the West. After 80+ years without an NHL team, the NHL West is a hell of a lot better than the AHL West.
Personally, I think I'd prefer Hamilton be in the central division: 8 o' clock start times ftw!

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10-24-2012, 10:53 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
Where did this myth come from?

Toronto + York + Peel + Durham + Halton = 6 million.
The rest of the Golden Horseshoe = 2.7 million.

If there's 6 million people living east of Hamilton and 2.7 million living both within and west/south of it, how is it possible that the centre of population falls in Hamilton?
I didn't say Golden Horseshoe. I said southern Ontario which includes Guelph, K-W, London, Brantford etc (all outside the GH) as well as the GTA itself.

Draw a circle of a 50 mile or so radius (NHL territory) around Hamilton and how many millions would that include?

It's why the NHL's own experts said in court during the Coyotes bankruptcy proceedings that any Hamilton team would be the fifth highest revenue generator in the NHL

Quote:
Hamilton would be among top five in revenue, NHL admits
http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/693658

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10-24-2012, 10:55 PM
  #132
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Well by being insufficient right now I think he is saying the arena is not up-to-date in terms of broadcast facilities, Corporate suites, club seats and possibly a few other things as well like NHL locker rooms.

I'm curious as to who will pay the $150 million or so it would take to update the facility. That always seems to be glossed over. I' have my doubts about the city council there considering they nearly bungled the Pan Am stadium and ended up with a rather mediocre facility (based on the rendering) at that.
Global Spectrum (owner/ manager of the Flyers and the Wells Fargo Center) has just recently signed a management deal to run Copps Coliseum: I doubt they're going to let it to decay and sit empty.

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10-24-2012, 10:58 PM
  #133
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Been there done that.. It's not to bad coming east 401 but yah taking hwy 8 can be slow through cambridge at 5ish.. 6pm is good.
And in dark winter conditions?

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10-24-2012, 10:59 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
I don't see why they wouldn't.
There are many business aspects to a new team that they would have to consider. For example another modern arena available for other events would be one financial negative.

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10-24-2012, 11:02 PM
  #135
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Global Spectrum (owner/ manager of the Flyers and the Wells Fargo Center) has just recently purchased Copps Coliseum: I doubt they're going to let it to decay and sit empty.
Not quite. The city of Hamilton still owns it, which means they are responsible for capital outlays and such.

Global Spectrum/Live Nation have won the rights to manage the arena.


http://www.cbc.ca/hamilton/news/stor...hecfi-bid.html

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10-24-2012, 11:10 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
Not quite. The city of Hamilton still owns it, which means they are responsible for capital outlays and such.

Global Spectrum/Live Nation have won the rights to manage the arena.


http://www.cbc.ca/hamilton/news/stor...hecfi-bid.html
You're right: I went back and fixed it, but you'd already caught it. Still, their comments seem some-what promising, imo.

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10-24-2012, 11:10 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Blue'sClues View Post
There are many business aspects to a new team that they would have to consider. For example another modern arena available for other events would be one financial negative.
It's being upgraded by Global Spectrum. Also, from the article posted above:

Quote:
The agreement will also accommodate a potential future NHL team, but it won't be owned by Comcast Spectacor as the same company cannot own two teams.

“We've never overplayed that card,” he said. “We said we'd help this city to put together the best plan we could to attract an owner and attract the league's attention.”

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10-25-2012, 12:00 AM
  #138
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Posters who havent been in that area need to factor in the entire surrounding area. Not just Hamilton. I guarantee it would be more profitable than these other proposed locations. So many people in the GTA alone RARELY go to Leaf games for obvious reasons, not the team performance.

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10-25-2012, 06:12 AM
  #139
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And in dark winter conditions?
Probably not. It's been so mild last few years I forget we even get winter lol.

This is why it's important to have the team in a larger city. When blizzard like conditions arise the city can still support the team. Imagine Markham middle of the week blizzard. Who would want to fight THAT traffic and snow to see The Toronto Suburbs take on CBJ? No offence CBJers

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10-25-2012, 08:53 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Ryan34222 View Post
Probably not. It's been so mild last few years I forget we even get winter lol.

This is why it's important to have the team in a larger city. When blizzard like conditions arise the city can still support the team. Imagine Markham middle of the week blizzard. Who would want to fight THAT traffic and snow to see The Toronto Suburbs take on CBJ? No offence CBJers
a heck of a lot more folks than those who live 40km to 60km outside of london or kw if the arena were to be situated in one of those cities. situating the arena inside a large metropolitan area has so many more advantages than situating it inside a small metropolitan area.

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10-25-2012, 09:56 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
I didn't say Golden Horseshoe. I said southern Ontario which includes Guelph, K-W, London, Brantford etc (all outside the GH) as well as the GTA itself.
Does it really matter? The Greater Toronto Area has a population of 6 million, the rest of Ontario has a population of 6.7 million. There's significantly more people living east of Hamilton than there is west of it, meaning it cannot be the centre of population.

Quote:
Draw a circle of a 50 mile or so radius (NHL territory) around Hamilton and how many millions would that include?
Just under 7.2 million by my (rough) calculations. It probably is a little less as a 1/3 of Scarborough is not within the 50-mile mark but I decided to be generous and count all of Toronto.

By comparison, there's 7.7 million people living within a 50-mile radius of Mississauga.

Quote:
It's why the NHL's own experts said in court during the Coyotes bankruptcy proceedings that any Hamilton team would be the fifth highest revenue generator in the NHL

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/693658
I read those documents from the BK case. If I remember correctly, it said a second team in Southern Ontario is projected to be top 5 in revenue, not Hamilton specifically.

I could be wrong though.

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10-25-2012, 11:19 AM
  #142
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i mean with rush hour traffic, which is when people would be going from kw to hamilton for games.
It's not like this all the time, but I've gotten to Hamilton in 45 minutes in rush hour before. Sometimes it takes longer, but never more than an hour. Besides, most people got to games a little early anyway. Leaving at 5:00 from Hamilton is plenty of enough time to get to Kitchener in time for a 7:00 start, and to be honest Kitchener could bump the time back to 7:30 to make it easier for people to leave at 6:00 or even 6:15.

On the winter issue, I've never seen it be that bad since I was a kid.

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10-25-2012, 12:30 PM
  #143
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What about the fans from Sudbury, Northbay, Orillia, Peterborough.....
The thing is Hamilton is a centralized location that has 2 major highways going through the city that ables Hamilton to gain access to 8 million people through out southern ontario just not the GTA. you got to think regional & Hamilton is the perfect place to put a regional NHL. team & like Balsille said a NHL. team in Hamilton is just not for hamilton but for all of southern ontario & chances are an NHL. team in Hamilton will be called Ontario not Hamilton . As for Sudbury , North Bay , Orilla & Peterborough 2 out of the 4 namely sudbury & North Bay are northen ontario really would not have access to an NHL. team in Hamilton or Markham because it would be long haul ethier way as for Orillia & Peterborough they have access to the Leafs Senators & 2 OHL. teams in the Petes & Colts .

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10-25-2012, 01:17 PM
  #144
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The thing is Hamilton is a centralized location that has 2 major highways going through the city that ables Hamilton to gain access to 8 million people through out southern ontario just not the GTA. you got to think regional & Hamilton is the perfect place to put a regional NHL. team & like Balsille said a NHL. team in Hamilton is just not for hamilton but for all of southern ontario & chances are an NHL. team in Hamilton will be called Ontario not Hamilton . As for Sudbury , North Bay , Orilla & Peterborough 2 out of the 4 namely sudbury & North Bay are northen ontario really would not have access to an NHL. team in Hamilton or Markham because it would be long haul ethier way as for Orillia & Peterborough they have access to the Leafs Senators & 2 OHL. teams in the Petes & Colts .
dont oversell the value of the highway infrastructure in the hamilton area. if there is an accident on either the QEW or the 403, the city gridlocks and shuts down. yes, when it works, it works. but when it doesnt, its among the worst in the country. also, getting down the mountain from the airport to copps can be a real challenge in the winter sometimes. i would suggest that getting around in markham/gta during a snowstorm would be much more efficient than getting around in the hammer, if only for the abundance of roads and public transit.

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10-26-2012, 12:25 PM
  #145
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Does it really matter? The Greater Toronto Area has a population of 6 million, the rest of Ontario has a population of 6.7 million. There's significantly more people living east of Hamilton than there is west of it, meaning it cannot be the centre of population.
It does matter when comparing Hamilton's location to London's. That's what I was responding to.


Quote:
I read those documents from the BK case. If I remember correctly, it said a second team in Southern Ontario is projected to be top 5 in revenue, not Hamilton specifically.

I could be wrong though.
I think you're right. And again, this was a response to the London location being better than Hamilton's. I don't think London would figure in that top 5 category as a team in Hamilton/GTA would.

Would a 50 mile, or so radius around London include 7 million people? I don't know.

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10-26-2012, 12:32 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
getting down the mountain from the airport to copps can be a real challenge in the winter sometimes.
How do you figure?

Do you know about the airport connection to the 403? (Not sure what relevance that has anyway. What am I missing ?)





Quote:
i would suggest that getting around in markham/gta during a snowstorm would be much more efficient than getting around in the hammer, if only for the abundance of roads and public transit.
Not sure about Markham, but Hamilton has an abundance of roads and public transit. In fact a new GO train station has just been announced for downtown that will be done in a few short years. that's 2 GO stations to downtown Hamilton.


Last edited by Hamilton Tigers: 10-26-2012 at 12:42 PM.
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10-26-2012, 02:28 PM
  #147
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How do you figure?
the 403 is the only road on that side of town capable of handing any volume of traffic. an accident, or even bad snowy weather, routinely causes traffic chaos in the area because alternate surface roads simply cannot handle that volume. ever try to get off at main from the downhill 403 during an accident? even just during rush hour.

as well, public transit is simply not efficient enough to convince anyone able to afford NHL prices to get on the bus from ancaster, the central mountain, dundas, guelph, kw, camb. they will ALL be driving.

the only worthwhile public transit is, as you indicate, the GO train coming in from oakville, etc. but I would suggest that most folks from that neck of the woods will also similarly decide to drive in, not wait for a train and/or take a bus out after the game to then get back to the train station.

the saving grace is that there is plenty of cheap, close parking right downtown.

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10-26-2012, 02:49 PM
  #148
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the 403 is the only road on that side of town capable of handing any volume of traffic. an accident, or even bad snowy weather, routinely causes traffic chaos in the area because alternate surface roads simply cannot handle that volume. ever try to get off at main from the downhill 403 during an accident? even just during rush hour.

as well, public transit is simply not efficient enough to convince anyone able to afford NHL prices to get on the bus from ancaster, the central mountain, dundas, guelph, kw, camb. they will ALL be driving.

the only worthwhile public transit is, as you indicate, the GO train coming in from oakville, etc. but I would suggest that most folks from that neck of the woods will also similarly decide to drive in, not wait for a train and/or take a bus out after the game to then get back to the train station.

the saving grace is that there is plenty of cheap, close parking right downtown.
Buses go directly from the central mountain and Dundas to Copps Coliseum, so I don't know what you're talking about.

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10-26-2012, 03:10 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
the 403 is the only road on that side of town capable of handing any volume of traffic. an accident, or even bad snowy weather, routinely causes traffic chaos in the area because alternate surface roads simply cannot handle that volume. ever try to get off at main from the downhill 403 during an accident? even just during rush hour.

.
well thats just about any hwy no? get stuck between exit ramps and you're just that...stuck.

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10-26-2012, 03:15 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
It does matter when comparing Hamilton's location to London's. That's what I was responding to.

I think you're right. And again, this was a response to the London location being better than Hamilton's. I don't think London would figure in that top 5 category as a team in Hamilton/GTA would.

Would a 50 mile, or so radius around London include 7 million people? I don't know.
Yeah, we're definitely not on the same page as each other.

I was addressing the myth that is somewhat prevalent on this board that Hamilton is the centre of Southern Ontario, the perfect geographic place for a team. The numbers simply don't back that up. If someone had the chance to build a new arena on any land somewhere in GTA with the aim of attracting the widest possible population, the best place to do it would likely lie in Mississauga or Brampton. That isn't to downplay Hamilton, just dispel this myth.

In comparison to London though, yeah I completely agree that it isn't close and apologize for misinterpreting your previous post. London is too far removed from the Golden Horseshoe to harness the potential that a second team in Southern Ontario could have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
the 403 is the only road on that side of town capable of handing any volume of traffic. an accident, or even bad snowy weather, routinely causes traffic chaos in the area because alternate surface roads simply cannot handle that volume. ever try to get off at main from the downhill 403 during an accident? even just during rush hour.

as well, public transit is simply not efficient enough to convince anyone able to afford NHL prices to get on the bus from ancaster, the central mountain, dundas, guelph, kw, camb. they will ALL be driving.

the only worthwhile public transit is, as you indicate, the GO train coming in from oakville, etc. but I would suggest that most folks from that neck of the woods will also similarly decide to drive in, not wait for a train and/or take a bus out after the game to then get back to the train station.

the saving grace is that there is plenty of cheap, close parking right downtown.
The train is less of an issue. The main issue with GO Trains is timing. Nobody wants to miss the train and wait for an hour for the next one. If GO ran game-day service or the government finally follows through on its promise for half-hourly service, I think it would become very viable for those going to Copps. The train doesn't necessarily need to be faster than driving, just competitive.

The buses are a major issue though. While public transit in Ontario does not suffer from the social stigma that it does in many US cities, buses still do. A lot people will go out of their way to avoid riding a bus, as opposed to other forms of transit. Hamilton would likely need to build an LRT from the GO Station to Copps if the city was interested in providing a viable alternative to the car in getting to the game.

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