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Old
10-24-2012, 08:40 PM
  #826
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Apparently we are arguing with the only person on the planet who hasn't heard that prime is generally thought of as 27-32.

Actually he seems to have quit arguing with me. Ignores my facts, yet continues to say the same stuff that has been disproven.
Facts?

You've pretty much said "I think players are in their prime from 27-32, so I'm right".
Good fact.

You could look at CrazyEdie's link that says it's a fair argument to state that prime starts at 24.

And I never was apart of this "age" game. That's your guys argument.

My point was this... the vast vast vast majority of players are into their prime's by their 7th nhl season.
That's MY argument.

Try and prove THAT argument incorrect.

I have a feeling it will be very difficult for you.

I have a feeling that you will resort to spin.

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10-24-2012, 08:41 PM
  #827
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
You want me to compile a list of every player in nhl history and when they hit their prime?
Wow.
That sure sounds like a lot of work.

How about this?

What are some players you think might be exceptions to this rule.
I'm sure there's a few.
Players who hit their prime AFTER their 7th nhl season.

You're being intellectually dishonest in this thread, and I think you know it.
Do you really think that the vast majority of nhl players hit their prime AFTER 7 full nhl seasons? Is that what you really think?

Or are you just playing a game of spin in order to save face?
Be honest..
Lidstrom and his NOrris trophies.
Messier and his Hart trophy.
Sakic and his Hart Trophy
Yzerman and his Selke.
Gilmour and his 2 years in Toronto.
Chara and his Norris.
Thomas and his Vezina
Hasek and his Hart trophies.

Just a few, you know average NHLers.

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10-24-2012, 08:44 PM
  #828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Facts?

You've pretty much said "I think players are in their prime from 27-32, so I'm right".
Good fact.

You could look at CrazyEdie's link that says it's a fair argument to state that prime starts at 24.

And I never was apart of this "age" game. That's your guys argument.

My point was this... the vast vast vast majority of players are into their prime's by their 7th nhl season.
That's MY argument.

Try and prove THAT argument incorrect.

I have a feeling it will be very difficult for you.

I have a feeling that you will resort to spin.
I'm trying to stay out of this crap but, why not provide a link to your findings instead of asking others to do it for you?

You preach "facts" but neglect to provide some yourself.

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10-24-2012, 08:50 PM
  #829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Facts?

You've pretty much said "I think players are in their prime from 27-32, so I'm right".
Good fact.

You could look at CrazyEdie's link that says it's a fair argument to state that prime starts at 24.

And I never was apart of this "age" game. That's your guys argument.

My point was this... the vast vast vast majority of players are into their prime's by their 7th nhl season.
That's MY argument.

Try and prove THAT argument incorrect.

I have a feeling it will be very difficult for you.

I have a feeling that you will resort to spin.
That is wrong. The general concensus, that means most of the world, is that prime for NHL players is 27-32.

It isn't just me. You can go and ask anywhere. You are wrong. There is no way around it. IT just is what it is.


Water is wet, the sky is blue, and prime for NHL players is generally 27-32.

I really can't fathom how you can continue this?

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10-24-2012, 08:51 PM
  #830
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Originally Posted by anderson3133 View Post
I'm trying to stay out of this crap but, why not provide a link to your findings instead of asking others to do it for you?

You preach "facts" but neglect to provide some yourself.
Pssst. He has none.

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10-24-2012, 08:54 PM
  #831
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Lidstrom and his NOrris trophies.
Messier and his Hart trophy.
Sakic and his Hart Trophy
Yzerman and his Selke.
Gilmour and his 2 years in Toronto.
Chara and his Norris.
Thomas and his Vezina
Hasek and his Hart trophies.

Just a few, you know average NHLers.
I myself already made the argument that defenceman hit their primes later than forwards.
The comparison in this thread is to Kessel.

Are you saying that Messier was only in his prime ONE year? The year he won the hart trophy?
He wasn't in his prime when he scored over 100 points, won all those cups and won the conn smyth award in his early 20's?
Wow.

Late bloomer I guess.

I guess Sakic wasn't in his prime when he scored 100 points four years in a row in his early 20's.
Another late bloomer.

I'm learning so much...

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10-24-2012, 08:58 PM
  #832
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Lidstrom and his NOrris trophies.
Messier and his Hart trophy.
Sakic and his Hart Trophy
Yzerman and his Selke.
Gilmour and his 2 years in Toronto.
Chara and his Norris.
Thomas and his Vezina
Hasek and his Hart trophies.

Just a few, you know average NHLers.
I've done this exact research before for him.

Jarome Iginla
Daniel Sedin
Henrik Sedin
Marian Gaborik
Joffrey Lupul
Scott Hartnell
Tim Connolly
Pavel Datsyuk
Vincent Lecavalier
Simon Gagne
Joe Thornton
Marty St. Louis
Patrick Marleau
Marian Hossa

The list goes on.

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10-24-2012, 09:05 PM
  #833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anderson3133 View Post
I've done this exact research before for him.

Jarome Iginla
Daniel Sedin
Henrik Sedin
Marian Gaborik
Joffrey Lupul
Scott Hartnell
Tim Connolly
Pavel Datsyuk
Vincent Lecavalier
Simon Gagne
Joe Thornton
Marty St. Louis
Patrick Marleau
Marian Hossa

The list goes on.
It's like one little voice screaming against the rest of the world. Ignoring all the evidence and clutching to a lost causel like a child grasps a favorite toy.

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10-24-2012, 09:10 PM
  #834
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
I myself already made the argument that defenceman hit their primes later than forwards.
The comparison in this thread is to Kessel.

Are you saying that Messier was only in his prime ONE year? The year he won the hart trophy?
He wasn't in his prime when he scored over 100 points, won all those cups and won the conn smyth award in his early 20's?
Wow.

Late bloomer I guess.

I guess Sakic wasn't in his prime when he scored 100 points four years in a row in his early 20's.
Another late bloomer.

I'm learning so much...
Actually Messier won 2 harts. I can't edit.

Prime is more than just points.

Are done with Prime yet?

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10-24-2012, 10:03 PM
  #835
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Originally Posted by anderson3133 View Post
I've done this exact research before for him.

Jarome Iginla
Daniel Sedin
Henrik Sedin
Marian Gaborik
Joffrey Lupul
Scott Hartnell
Tim Connolly
Pavel Datsyuk
Vincent Lecavalier
Simon Gagne
Joe Thornton
Marty St. Louis
Patrick Marleau
Marian Hossa

The list goes on.
I would once again like to thank you for providing research for me.
It's very generous of you.

Every single one of those players were WELL into their prime by their 7th nhl season.
Every single one of them.

I would LOVE for you to show me one that wasn't.

It really has been pretty good around here recently.
I don't even have to provide facts.
The people I'm arguing against do it for me.
I still don't really understand why you're all providing facts for MY case instead of your own.
I once again would like to thank you all for that. It's very nice of you.

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10-24-2012, 10:05 PM
  #836
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Actually Messier won 2 harts. I can't edit.

Prime is more than just points.

Are done with Prime yet?
So now that I've proven you wrong with facts, you've just chosen to change the definition of "prime" to "when players score LESS points later in their careers".

wow.

This is a new low.

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10-24-2012, 10:09 PM
  #837
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What new corner of thread hell have I wandered into here lol..

I'll just answer the OP, yes, extend please.

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10-24-2012, 10:10 PM
  #838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
I would once again like to thank you for providing research for me.
It's very generous of you.

Every single one of those players were WELL into their prime by their 7th nhl season.
Every single one of them.

I would LOVE for you to show me one that wasn't.

It really has been pretty good around here recently.
I don't even have to provide facts.
The people I'm arguing against do it for me.
I still don't really understand why you're all providing facts for MY case instead of your own.
I once again would like to thank you all for that. It's very nice of you.
Every one of those players excelled after their 7th season.

I think we need to start implementing a "No Child Left Behind" program in Canada.

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10-24-2012, 10:19 PM
  #839
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Originally Posted by Squiffy View Post
What new corner of thread hell have I wandered into here lol..

I'll just answer the OP, yes, extend please.
Thank you.

Yes sorry this has devloped into a whirlpool of excrement.

Ok, you have any particular reasons why you extend him now?

Some want to wait another year, but I think extending 3 years right now shows faith and solidarity and puts forth the right image of stability to the rest of the league.

How 'bout you?

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10-24-2012, 10:20 PM
  #840
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Originally Posted by anderson3133 View Post
Every one of those players excelled after their 7th season.

I think we need to start implementing a "No Child Left Behind" program in Canada.
Too Late.

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10-24-2012, 10:26 PM
  #841
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
So now that I've proven you wrong with facts, you've just chosen to change the definition of "prime" to "when players score LESS points later in their careers".

wow.

This is a new low.
The definiton of PRIME has never changed.

If you were under the impression that it was all about points that is........unfortunate, I think would be the correct term.

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10-24-2012, 10:26 PM
  #842
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Originally Posted by Squiffy View Post
What new corner of thread hell have I wandered into here lol..

I'll just answer the OP, yes, extend please.
What has he shown to deserve he's worthy of an extension? Yes he has restocked the marlies but most of their forwards arent going to amount to great NHL'ers, I'll say this though he's beefed up the blueline depth but really Burke's job IS to make the Leafs better and so far he hasn't. We don't have a goaltender, no top line centre, we have very few defensive minded players, very little grit and oh did I mention 4 years later we are STILL a lottery team? Sorry but no he isn't worthy of an extension, he has failed miserably as a GM and should be fired.

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10-24-2012, 10:29 PM
  #843
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Too Late.
Just to illustrate my point with point totals:

Joe Thornton Best 3 Seasons Prior To 7th Season: 101, 73, 71
Joe Thornton Best 3 Seasons Post 7th Season: 114, 96, 92

Daniel Sedin Best 3 Seasons Prior To 7th Season: 84, 74, 71
Daniel Sedin Best 3 Seasons Post 7th Season: 104, 85, 82

Henrik Sedin Best 3 Seasons Prior To 7th Season: 81, 76, 75
Henrik Sedin Best 3 Seasons Post 7th Season: 112, 94, 82

Marian Hossa Best 3 Seasons Prior To 7th Season: 82, 80, 75
Marian Hossa Best 3 Seasons Post 7th Season: 100, 92, 87

Jarome Iginla Best 3 Seasons Prior To 7th Season: 96, 71, 63
Jarome Iginla Best 3 Seasons Post 7th Season: 98, 94, 89

I'm not doing the rest because anyone with basic knowledge will get where this is going.

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10-24-2012, 10:32 PM
  #844
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Thank you.

Yes sorry this has devloped into a whirlpool of excrement.

Ok, you have any particular reasons why you extend him now?

Some want to wait another year, but I think extending 3 years right now shows faith and solidarity and puts forth the right image of stability to the rest of the league.

How 'bout you?
I like the job he's been doing by and large, I think stability is important, and most importantly, as I thought when he was hired, I think that there are very few people in the world as uniquely qualified as BB to be the GM of this club. I value his ability to rise above the noise of this market and say "I'm the boss and we're doing this my way" immensely, and I think it will ultimately lead us to sustained success if we're only patient with it.

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10-24-2012, 10:39 PM
  #845
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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
What has he shown to deserve he's worthy of an extension? Yes he has restocked the marlies but most of their forwards arent going to amount to great NHL'ers, I'll say this though he's beefed up the blueline depth but really Burke's job IS to make the Leafs better and so far he hasn't. We don't have a goaltender, no top line centre, we have very few defensive minded players, very little grit and oh did I mention 4 years later we are STILL a lottery team? Sorry but no he isn't worthy of an extension, he has failed miserably as a GM and should be fired.
Valid viewpoint. Me, I see a slow and steady rebuilding from the ground up, with some mis-steps along the way, none fatal, that deserves to be seen out. I think we'd be guilty of changing horses midstream to ditch the last four years and embrace some alternate philosophy to team building.

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10-24-2012, 10:46 PM
  #846
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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
What has he shown to deserve he's worthy of an extension? Yes he has restocked the marlies but most of their forwards arent going to amount to great NHL'ers, I'll say this though he's beefed up the blueline depth but really Burke's job IS to make the Leafs better and so far he hasn't. We don't have a goaltender, no top line centre, we have very few defensive minded players, very little grit and oh did I mention 4 years later we are STILL a lottery team? Sorry but no he isn't worthy of an extension, he has failed miserably as a GM and should be fired.
After only 4 years?

Just how much is he supposed to have done in 4 years?

Yet you say he has failed.

After Bringing in JVR, Colborne, Liles, Gardiner, Phaneuf, Lupul?

After not getting presured into selling off the farm for a one year trip to the playoffs.

After moving out Toskala and Blake?

After luring most of the top previously unsigned UFA's here in 2010.

NOW I will not debate the Kessel deal. I will never change your mind so I will concede the point. It didn't work out. And I agree Burke hasn't been too good on the UFA market.

I can understand if you hate the way he deals with the media. He can rub people the wrong way. But that is a personal thing.

But just by his moves, hasn't he earned an extension?

He has assembled the best front office money could buy in the league.

IT was the coach that screwed up last year....

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10-24-2012, 10:53 PM
  #847
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[QUOTE=charliolemieux;55263241]After only 4 years?

Just how much is he supposed to have done in 4 years?

Yet you say he has failed.

After Bringing in JVR, Colborne, Liles, Gardiner, Phaneuf, Lupul? - The JVR move didn't like it, still dont. Colborne eh he's I dont know about him yet could be good or bad time will tell. Liles I loved the trade but hated resigning a guy north of 30 with concussion issues to a long term deal. Gardiner/Lupul in return for Beauchawomen was a steal, we got a top 4 stud and 1st line winger. The Phaneuf trade was good, and I do think Phaneuf IS a good player, he's just not great although he has the tools to be a elite defensmen.

After not getting presured into selling off the farm for a one year trip to the playoffs.

After moving out Toskala and Blake?- I'm glad he got rid of those players and it was a smart move.

After luring most of the top previously unsigned UFA's here in 2010.- Who would that be?

NOW I will not debate the Kessel deal. I will never change your mind so I will concede the point. It didn't work out. And I agree Burke hasn't been too good on the UFA market. - I loved the Kessel deal.

I can understand if you hate the way he deals with the media. He can rub people the wrong way. But that is a personal thing.

But just by his moves, hasn't he earned an extension? Do you really want to go there with me? This team is a lottery team 4 years later all with the players Burke himself brought it, the blame lies on him and his foot soldiers. Burke has brought in SOME skill, but we lack goaltending, heart, team defense etc, and we are nowhere near ready to makign the playoffs either. So yes to answer your question IMO I believe he should be fired.

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10-24-2012, 10:54 PM
  #848
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squiffy View Post
I like the job he's been doing by and large, I think stability is important, and most importantly, as I thought when he was hired, I think that there are very few people in the world as uniquely qualified as BB to be the GM of this club. I value his ability to rise above the noise of this market and say "I'm the boss and we're doing this my way" immensely, and I think it will ultimately lead us to sustained success if we're only patient with it.
Thats it.

Short concise and 100% agree.

I have yet to get a decent answer when I ask who should replace Burke?

I think his abiltiy to tell everyone to take a flying flip is what this market needs.

Heck even Fletcher bowed to the pressure. Coli AND Steen for Stempniak? That is not the same guy who stole Dougy fron CGY.

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10-24-2012, 11:17 PM
  #849
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Originally Posted by anderson3133 View Post
Just to illustrate my point with point totals:

Joe Thornton Best 3 Seasons Prior To 7th Season: 101, 73, 71
Joe Thornton Best 3 Seasons Post 7th Season: 114, 96, 92

Daniel Sedin Best 3 Seasons Prior To 7th Season: 84, 74, 71
Daniel Sedin Best 3 Seasons Post 7th Season: 104, 85, 82

Henrik Sedin Best 3 Seasons Prior To 7th Season: 81, 76, 75
Henrik Sedin Best 3 Seasons Post 7th Season: 112, 94, 82

Marian Hossa Best 3 Seasons Prior To 7th Season: 82, 80, 75
Marian Hossa Best 3 Seasons Post 7th Season: 100, 92, 87

Jarome Iginla Best 3 Seasons Prior To 7th Season: 96, 71, 63
Jarome Iginla Best 3 Seasons Post 7th Season: 98, 94, 89

I'm not doing the rest because anyone with basic knowledge will get where this is going.
Are you really trying to say that Joe Thornton wasn't in his prime when he got 101 points in his 6th season?
Wow

Iginla wasn't in his prime when he got his career high in goals in his 6th season?
Wow

Daniel Sedin got 36 goals in his 6th season. He's only surpassed that ONE other time.
And he wasn't even in his prime?
Wow

Henrik Sedin got 81 points in his 6th season. He's surpassed it TWICE.
And he wasn't even in his prime yet.
Fascinating.

Hossa got 82 points in his 6th season. He's only surpassed that number TWICE.
And he wasn't even in his prime.
Shocking.

Joe Thornton got 101 points in his 6th nhl season.
Has only passed it ONCE.
And he wasn't even in his prime.
Unheard of.

It seems that every player you just referenced started their prime by AT LEAST their 6th nhl season.
And those are the players FAMOUS for being late bloomers. AND THEY STILL PROVE MY POINT. HAHAHA

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10-24-2012, 11:17 PM
  #850
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[QUOTE=Kingstonian84;55263437]
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
The JVR move didn't like it, still dont. Colborne eh he's I dont know about him yet could be good or bad time will tell. Liles I loved the trade but hated resigning a guy north of 30 with concussion issues to a long term deal. Gardiner/Lupul in return for Beauchawomen was a steal, we got a top 4 stud and 1st line winger. The Phaneuf trade was good, and I do think Phaneuf IS a good player, he's just not great although he has the tools to be a elite defensmen.
Schenn was done here. Poor kid went from hero to whipping boy. Worst thing that ever happenend to him was making the Leafs at 18.
IF Colborne can improve his skating he should make a decent 3rd line center. If he can become more of a faceoff specialist and play a 2 way game he could work out.
The LIles siging was a bit weird. He can put up points. Now if while Liles plays with Phaneuf he can put up 45+pts, like he has done 2 times before, he might get a very nice price in 2013 after sheltering Gardiner for one more year.
Phaneuf has offence but he will be at his best when he thinks defence first. Liles is a good fit, Gardiner will be better.




Quote:
But just by his moves, hasn't he earned an extension? Do you really want to go there with me? This team is a lottery team 4 years later all with the players Burke himself brought it, the blame lies on him and his foot soldiers. Burke has brought in SOME skill, but we lack goaltending, heart, team defense etc, and we are nowhere near ready to makign the playoffs either. So yes to answer your question IMO I believe he should be fired.
He took a bunch of gambles.

But he has learned from every mistake.

Hasn't moved a 1st since the KEssel deal "backfired".
After signing Komi and Armstrong, UFA deals have been 2yrs.

I hate playing "Ifs" so I won't

I think the footsoldiers where doing just fine until everything got screwed up in the media.

After that it just went down hill until the complete collapse, post All-Star.

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