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Old
10-25-2012, 01:58 PM
  #601
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
If the Leafs follow this logic they will continue to miss the playoffs, and their young players will continue to show poor development. Goaltending is the key position for building confidence in players, especially young, developing ones. Look at the retarded growth for Luke Schenn. He regressed behind poor (young) goalies. It's a sad case too about (young) Gardiner. Without a real #1 goalie, I see him taking a step back in his development. I certainly hope Mr. Burke does not share your opinion on the value to a teams' developing players of a goalie.
FWIW Schenn was fine until Wilson tried to turn him into Scott Neidermeyer.
The "Losing" likely did take its toll on his motivation however - no more evident than in his lack of conditioning past 2 seasons.

Opportunity is the greatest contributor for building confidence IMO.
33 year old Vet goalie with 10 years remaining on his contract = no opportunity for developing goalies within this organization.

Same can be said for Connolly/Lombardi/McClement/Komi

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10-25-2012, 02:24 PM
  #602
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
FWIW Schenn was fine until Wilson tried to turn him into Scott Neidermeyer.
The "Losing" likely did take its toll on his motivation however - no more evident than in his lack of conditioning past 2 seasons.

Opportunity is the greatest contributor for building confidence IMO.
33 year old Vet goalie with 10 years remaining on his contract = no opportunity for developing goalies within this organization.

Same can be said for Connolly/Lombardi/McClement/Komi
Loungo just lost his job to a Goalie that was developed while he was a Canuck.

Now, ask me if I think Burke would have done what Gillis did, and give Schneider a chance while Luongo was there - I'd say no. But that has less to do with Luongo and his contract, and more to do with Burkes ineptitude.

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10-25-2012, 02:45 PM
  #603
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I think anyone who doesn't want Luongo is probably a tank supporter. Let's cut the ******** we don't have a Markstrom, Subban, Holtby, Rask etc. waiting in the piplines that have starting goalie potential. We have Reimer/Scrivens/Rynnas/Owuya, 3 of those guys may never make it, and will likely top out as a back up goalie.

Luongo being 33 does not scare me, most goalies go till their 40 and remain competitive. Plus after the new CBA is settled and Van has to take care of when he retirements we have no worries.

Rielly, Kessel, Phaneuf, Gardiner, JVR, Grabo, Finn and our 1st are going no where.

One of Kadri or Frattin may go along with a combination of either of: Bozak, Mac, Connolly, Lombardi, Franson, Colborne, Ashton etc. may go.

It's a move we can afford to make in my opinion.

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10-25-2012, 02:50 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
Who plays goalie then, if not Luongo? The Leafs have played that tune for too many seasons now, and look what they have accomplished. Even a team that is young, and on the rise needs a true #1 goalie. Look at the Oilers. A lot of great younger players (some very good older ones too) and yet they don't make the playoffs. They also don't have a true #1 goalie. The Leafs absolutely need to acquire Luongo. With out him, the Leafs' future continues to look bleak, no matter how many other good position players they have.
This^^^^^^^! The leafs have gone through so many goalies since 04' (Toskala, Giguere, Gerber, Raycroft, Riemer, Gustavsson) and NONE of them have done anything to really help us. I think we need to look back to the past to learn what was most successful and that was an elite VETERAN backing us all the way, our best years IMO were when Cujo and Belfour were backstopping us. Luongo IMO is somewhere in between a CUJO and Belfour, a bit better then CUJO was but not quite as great as Belfour, still he would put up 30-40 wins a year here and give us elite goaltending we haven't seen since pre 04'.

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10-25-2012, 02:51 PM
  #605
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I don't think it will cost too much to get Luongo. No firsts, no top prospects. A decent roster player, most likely. Maybe a deal based around Franson and a 2nd or a Blacker like prospect.

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10-25-2012, 02:56 PM
  #606
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I don't think it will cost too much to get Luongo. No firsts, no top prospects. A decent roster player, most likely. Maybe a deal based around Franson and a 2nd or a Blacker like prospect.
You do realize Franson is a RFA after this season right (assuming there is one to salavage), there is NO guarantee he signs with Vancouver, so no Vancouver wouldn't take that risk. Vancouver is a team that needs to win NOW, a guy like Blacker while he has potential, he's of no use to them right now so again no to him in that package.

It's going to take something like Kadri, Komiserak and a 2nd to get the deal done (I'm just using this as an example). Kadri gives them a potential 2nd line winger, Komiserak is our cap dump on them and they can use him as a depth defencmen, the 2nd rounder they can use however they want.

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10-25-2012, 03:01 PM
  #607
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How many Cups did those goalies you love get us?

Would you rather have Rask or Raycroft?
How about Couture or Toskola?

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10-25-2012, 03:03 PM
  #608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
If the Leafs follow this logic they will continue to miss the playoffs, and their young players will continue to show poor development. Goaltending is the key position for building confidence in players, especially young, developing ones. Look at the retarded growth for Luke Schenn. He regressed behind poor (young) goalies. It's a sad case too about (young) Gardiner. Without a real #1 goalie, I see him taking a step back in his development. I certainly hope Mr. Burke does not share your opinion on the value to a teams' developing players of a goalie.
Schenn failed here due to other factors besides ****** goaltending. The system didn't suit his type of defensive style, which is why you see guys like Komisarek and Aulie struggle here. Schenn's issues with his weight also contributed to his downfall. You could also make a point that he may have been rushed. In any case, Schenn fell off for multiple reasons besides bad goaltending.

Also, there are other players the Leafs have developed that have turned out fine with bad goaltending behind them. Grabovski, Kulemin, Bozak and Gunnarsson have all turned into decent players despite having bad goaltending behind them.

What do you mean "sad case about Gardiner?" He hasn't shown any signs of regretion yet, NHL or AHL so far. You're prediction of him taking a step back is nothing more than that, a prediction based on your opinion. Hell it's a pretty safe opinion too considering many rookies struggle in their sophomore years.

As for that last part, right back at ya pal. I certainly hope Burke doesn't trade any futures for Luongo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
This^^^^^^^! The leafs have gone through so many goalies since 04' (Toskala, Giguere, Gerber, Raycroft, Riemer, Gustavsson) and NONE of them have done anything to really help us. I think we need to look back to the past to learn what was most successful and that was an elite VETERAN backing us all the way, our best years IMO were when Cujo and Belfour were backstopping us. Luongo IMO is somewhere in between a CUJO and Belfour, a bit better then CUJO was but not quite as great as Belfour, still he would put up 30-40 wins a year here and give us elite goaltending we haven't seen since pre 04'.
You're forgetting Reimer's performance the first half of his career that led us out of a top 3 pick and gave us a mini playoff push. If we're looking back at the past, it should be obvious that trading away picks and prospects for goalies gets us nowhere. Remember Rask for Raycroft? If that trade doesn't happen we probably aren't even discussing Luongo to Toronto now. 1st, 2nd and 4th for Toskala? That trade doesn't happen and we land Lars Eller or do what San Jose did and trade up for Couture, who could quite possibly be our #1C.

Cujo and Belfour signed here as a free agents, unlike Luongo, who we'll have to give up assets for. If the past shows us anything, it's that impatience and quick fixes lead to nowhere but more mediocrity, and a bad case of hindsight.


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10-25-2012, 03:29 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by The Naz View Post
I don't think it will cost too much to get Luongo. No firsts, no top prospects. A decent roster player, most likely. Maybe a deal based around Franson and a 2nd or a Blacker like prospect.
If you think that, then why has luongo not been traded yet?.

Let's be realistic, Gillis want's value who can play NOW, Not prospects, or 1sts, etc.

Gillis is/was Asking for the moon, and has come down, but in no way has he come down to a salary dump.

He will gladly keep him, and trade him at the deadline if he has 2.

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10-25-2012, 03:38 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
If you think that, then why has luongo not been traded yet?.

Let's be realistic, Gillis want's value who can play NOW, Not prospects, or 1sts, etc.

Gillis is/was Asking for the moon, and has come down, but in no way has he come down to a salary dump.

He will gladly keep him, and trade him at the deadline if he has 2.
There's a lockout on, it's been in all the papers.

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10-25-2012, 03:38 PM
  #611
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Another thing, Luongo would 100% make the leafs into a playoff team. Reimer is simply way 2 big of a wild card to bank on.

Burke needs a good season next year, simply to save his job. Burke will not give a guy like gardiner for luongo, but Burke might have his hand forced and get a guy like kadri and bozak for example for him.

Do the leafs overpay?, Well if the leafs make the playoffs and make a run, then absolutely not. They will have a stable elite goalie for at least 5 years before he starts to suck.

But if luongo ***** the bed (which he won't, he is a remarkable regular season goalie), then yes you would lose the deal.
Also people love to say how the leafs is some insane market, big time pressure, etc. The leafs fanbase has pressure, but it's for the OWNERS, it's for the GM'S, it's for the COACHES.

You guys never go that hard on the players, god even a guy like dallas eakins or w/e his name is was getting heat on him, instead of a guy like kadri.

Luongo can handle the leafs market, simply because the leafs market is not nearly as hard on GOALIES as the canucks market is, It's not even remotely close. There is a real why Vancouver is known as the goalie graveyard.

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10-25-2012, 03:39 PM
  #612
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There's a lockout on, it's been in all the papers.
I know, I meant before the lockout.

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10-25-2012, 03:41 PM
  #613
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I know, I meant before the lockout.
No one would touch that albatross without knowing the new CBA.

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10-25-2012, 03:44 PM
  #614
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
No one would touch that albatross without knowing the new CBA.
the length of his contact is bad, not everything about it is bad.

He is at a 5.3 cap hit, which is ranked like what 11th in the league for goalies?

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10-25-2012, 03:45 PM
  #615
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Another thing, Luongo would 100% make the leafs into a playoff team.
Just like he did with the Florida Panthers and Vancouver Canucks, right?

Another ridiculous statement.

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10-25-2012, 03:47 PM
  #616
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the length of his contact is bad, not everything about it is bad.

He is at a 5.3 cap hit, which is ranked like what 11th in the league for goalies?
Agreed, it's bad.

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10-25-2012, 04:04 PM
  #617
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If it wasn't about a goalie on their team, all Canuck fans would agree it's better to continue to rebuild than get a veteran goalie who only makes them better so they can get lousier draft picks and still not contend.

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10-25-2012, 04:06 PM
  #618
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Originally Posted by frankthetank91 View Post
I think anyone who doesn't want Luongo is probably a tank supporter. Let's cut the ******** we don't have a Markstrom, Subban, Holtby, Rask etc. waiting in the piplines that have starting goalie potential. We have Reimer/Scrivens/Rynnas/Owuya, 3 of those guys may never make it, and will likely top out as a back up goalie.

Luongo being 33 does not scare me, most goalies go till their 40 and remain competitive. Plus after the new CBA is settled and Van has to take care of when he retirements we have no worries.

Rielly, Kessel, Phaneuf, Gardiner, JVR, Grabo, Finn and our 1st are going no where.

One of Kadri or Frattin may go along with a combination of either of: Bozak, Mac, Connolly, Lombardi, Franson, Colborne, Ashton etc. may go.

It's a move we can afford to make in my opinion.
So let me get this straight - you're upset that we don't have a Top Prospect who has starting goalie potential - but you're ok with trading our top 3 forward prospects to get a 33 old vet goalie. You even mention Rask lol who was himself traded by this organization for a "proven" starter that failed miserably.

Then you'll complain that we dont' have any propects at forward in the pipeline - so you'll want to trade Reilly+Gardner to land Iginla lol ...

I wonder how many years of missing the playoffs/not being a contender it would take before you finally realized just how idiotic this philosophy is/has been? Another 10 years maybe?

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10-25-2012, 04:06 PM
  #619
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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
Ok no offence but i'm getting fed up with all you people whining about his contract! So what he has 8 years left, guess what Burke wont be hear in that amount of time, it will be the next GM's problem, Burke's job IS to make the leafs a contender, and Luongo helps get us there so if we can grab him then so be it.
The next GM is calling the shots as well though. Dave Nonis.

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10-25-2012, 04:08 PM
  #620
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What I wonder is what is the league going to do with these long term contracts? If they push for a five year max and ask for a roll back what happens to everything after year five. I'm not sure the short term gain of Lou is worth ten years. For those who say he can play until he is 40 I don't disagree but at what level? How effective was Joeseph later on? Hasek player but he was a side show. Belfour finally gave into a bad back. Point is you don't have someone you can count on which is where we are right now.

Reims and Scrivens until somoene blinks. I rather have Theordore, if the year is lost then Smith, Theodore and I believe Khabibulin(sp) are ufa's. Goalie in NYI would be a UFA as well.

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10-25-2012, 04:32 PM
  #621
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
Another thing, Luongo would 100% make the leafs into a playoff team. Reimer is simply way 2 big of a wild card to bank on.

Burke needs a good season next year, simply to save his job. Burke will not give a guy like gardiner for luongo, but Burke might have his hand forced and get a guy like kadri and bozak for example for him.

Do the leafs overpay?, Well if the leafs make the playoffs and make a run, then absolutely not. They will have a stable elite goalie for at least 5 years before he starts to suck.

But if luongo ***** the bed (which he won't, he is a remarkable regular season goalie), then yes you would lose the deal.
Also people love to say how the leafs is some insane market, big time pressure, etc. The leafs fanbase has pressure, but it's for the OWNERS, it's for the GM'S, it's for the COACHES.

You guys never go that hard on the players, god even a guy like dallas eakins or w/e his name is was getting heat on him, instead of a guy like kadri.

Luongo can handle the leafs market, simply because the leafs market is not nearly as hard on GOALIES as the canucks market is, It's not even remotely close. There is a real why Vancouver is known as the goalie graveyard.
Please tell me you're joking. If Vancouver is the goalie graveyard then Luongo and Schnieder are vampires. How does a goalie graveyard have two elite goaltenders? Both of them have thrived and been relatively successful there. If you don't think Toronto is the place where goalies go to die, ask Gustavsson, Toskala, Raycroft, Giguere, Pogge, Aubin, and more. The fact that Toronto hasn't kept a decent goaltender since Belfour more than proves its tougher to play there than in the place where they have two maybe even three top goaltenders if you include mister Lack.

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10-25-2012, 04:42 PM
  #622
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Originally Posted by Chiuozu View Post
Loungo just lost his job to a Goalie that was developed while he was a Canuck.

Now, ask me if I think Burke would have done what Gillis did, and give Schneider a chance while Luongo was there - I'd say no. But that has less to do with Luongo and his contract, and more to do with Burkes ineptitude.
didn't burke give reimer a chance while giggy was here (albeit he was only called up halfway through the season?)

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10-25-2012, 04:50 PM
  #623
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Reimer will channel Quicks' path. book it.

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10-25-2012, 06:07 PM
  #624
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Poll: Spec u lation Station

Say "Goodbye" to Reimer or Scrivens?
The writing is on the wall people. Luongo is on his way. It's just a matter of time.

Do you wonder about all these reports denying the trade? I'll tell you why they exist: There are players on this side involved. Bozak's name has been thrown around, but have you considered the most important names: Reimer and Scrivens. Which one goes to Van. in a trade?

i know you're going to tell me that Schneider and Lack lack will be the new tandem, but that can't be. the leafs cannot keep three goalies.

which one do i say "Goodbye" to?



which one:

1. Scrivens
2. Reimer
3. Bozak and minor roster players only. No goalies.

poll will close in 134 days

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10-25-2012, 06:08 PM
  #625
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
Say "Goodbye" to Reimer or Scrivens?
The writing is on the wall people. Luongo is on his way. It's just a matter of time.

Do you wonder about all these reports denying the trade? I'll tell you why they exist: There are players on this side involved. Bozak's name has been thrown around, but have you considered the most important names: Reimer and Scrivens. Which one goes to Van. in a trade?

i know you're going to tell me that Schneider and Lack lack will be the new tandem, but that can't be. the leafs cannot keep three goalies.

which one do i say "Goodbye" to?



which one:

1. Scrivens
2. Reimer
3. Bozak and minor roster players only. No goalies.

poll will close in 134 days
No option for no deal?

I forgot, it was confirmed by "reports"

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