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Karlsson vs. Doughty vs. Pietrangelo (without a twist)

View Poll Results: Who is the best defenceman (in order):
Karlsson-Pietro-Doughty 85 18.24%
Karlsson-Doughty-Pietro 75 16.09%
Pietro-Karlsson-Doughty 70 15.02%
Pietro-Doughty-Karlsson 76 16.31%
Doughty-Karlsson-Pietro 57 12.23%
Doughty-Pietro-Karlsson 103 22.10%
Voters: 466. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-25-2012, 02:11 PM
  #26
HavlatMach9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishManSam View Post
One would have to kill penalties to be the best defenseman would he not?
This is a question that was considered by the voters of the Norris Trophy, and we found the answer to be no. You do not need to kill penalties to be the best all round dman.

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Old
10-25-2012, 02:23 PM
  #27
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Pietro
Doughty

Karlsson

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Old
10-25-2012, 02:29 PM
  #28
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Norris

Doughty/Pietrangelo

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Old
10-25-2012, 02:32 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishManSam View Post
The correct answer is Piet-Doughty-Karlsson

The question ask "Who is the best defenseman"

One would have to kill penalties to be the best defenseman would he not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
So Kuba is a better defenseman than Karlsson? News to me!
Quote:
Originally Posted by FishManSam View Post
If you fail at reading comprehension yes, but if you have some sort of common sense no.
I believe it is you who has failed at reading comprehension good sir. If one must kill penalties to be the best defenseman amongst these 3, and Player A does not kill penalties and Player B does kill penalties, that makes Player B better than Player A as per your reasoning.

It's wrong, and I'm glad you see that.

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10-25-2012, 02:34 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by laundryman View Post
It has nothing to do with Karlsson being bad. I know that he's a great player. I just think Doughty and Pietrangelo are more well rounded, better players.
Yeah, you're entitled to your opinion and I've long-since learned it's impossible to convince anyone to change their mind on HFboards .

I just find it surprising that you found Doughty and Pietrangelo better than Karlsson last year considering the statline he put up while you were watching (including a remarkable +/-), that's all.

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10-25-2012, 02:50 PM
  #31
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Karlsson > Pietrangelo / Doughty

But it's pretty close between the trio, IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebus View Post
Went with Drew>Alex>Erik but it wouldn't completely surprise me if Pietrangelo becomes the best defenseman down the road. Karlsson would have to score 120 points for me to overlook his defensive deficiencies and consider him the best.
Apparently Karlsson needs to be the next Bobby Orr to get respect. Good thing the real Bobby Orr totally agrees with that...

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10-25-2012, 02:52 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
This is a question that was considered by the voters of the Norris Trophy, and we found the answer to be no. You do not need to kill penalties to be the best all round dman.
Except the Norris voting did nothing of the sort, because we don't know whether Webers mass of 2nd place votes (more people thought he was a top 2 and 3 defenseman last season than Karlsson) come from losing to Chara among those who favored defense or from losing to Karlsson head-to-head.

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10-25-2012, 02:54 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Except the Norris voting did nothing of the sort, because we don't know whether Webers mass of 2nd place votes (more people thought he was a top 2 and 3 defenseman last season than Karlsson) come from losing to Chara among those who favored defense or from losing to Karlsson head-to-head.
Even so, for Karlsson to finish top-3 means he's clearly one of the best. To be one of the best, according to that poster's own words, you have to play the PK. The Norris voters clearly disagreed as Karlsson was one of the top vote-earners.

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10-25-2012, 02:58 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
Even so, for Karlsson to finish top-3 means he's clearly one of the best. To be one of the best, according to that poster's own words, you have to play the PK. The Norris voters clearly disagreed as Karlsson was one of the top vote-earners.
But not the best which was the value judgement that I quoted. Karlsson might've been hurt by his lack of PK time, and considered by a majority to not be the best all-around defenseman (or even #2) but that might have been offset by vote splitting between the clear-cut best defensive guys. We don't know.

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10-25-2012, 03:02 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
But not the best which was the value judgement that I quoted. Karlsson might've been hurt by his lack of PK time, and considered by a majority to not be the best all-around defenseman (or even #2) but that might have been offset by vote splitting between the clear-cut best defensive guys. We don't know.
I'm not sure what you mean.

The totals are out there:

Erik Karlsson 1,069 points (66-31-32-9-5)
Shea Weber 1,057 points (49-54-32-9-2)
Zdeno Chara 950 points (32-48-47-19-2)
Alex Pietrangelo 381 points (0-7-20-68-28)

So yeah, if everyone who voted for Chara would have voted for Weber, then yes, Weber would have won the Norris.

If the assumption is that they both have similar playing styles, which they do, then yes, that's reasonable.

Again, this is a result of the fact that there was no debate whatsoever with regard to those who value offensive contributions from defencemen, which is why Karlsson has a fairly clear lead in 1st place votes.

The fact that those 3 are very close in total top 3 votes goes to show that there really wasn't any other horse in this race.

It's also clear that no one defenceman was considered by a majority to be the best defenceman in the league last year according to the voting.


Last edited by NyQuil: 10-25-2012 at 03:12 PM.
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Old
10-25-2012, 03:12 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
I'm not sure what you mean.

The totals are out there:

Erik Karlsson 1,069 points (66-31-32-9-5)
Shea Weber 1,057 points (49-54-32-9-2)
Zdeno Chara 950 points (32-48-47-19-2)
Alex Pietrangelo 381 points (0-7-20-68-28)

So yeah, if everyone who voted for Chara would have voted for Weber, then yes, Weber would have won the Norris.
You're just going to have to accept the fact that a lot of people don't think Karlsson deserved to win the Norris.

Some people even go so far as to say his winning sullies the prestige of the trophy for future recipients.

But to be fair, people used to slam Coffey all the time too. Especially Ray Bourque fans.

It really comes down to preference, team needs, and how people believe hockey is best played. Karlsson would drive someone like Hitch crazy, but Laviolette would love him. It really comes down to hockey philosophies.

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Old
10-25-2012, 03:14 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
You're just going to have to accept the fact that a lot of people don't think Karlsson deserved to win the Norris.

Some people even go so far as to say his winning sullies the prestige of the trophy for future recipients.

But to be fair, people used to slam Coffey all the time too. Especially Ray Bourque fans.

It really comes down to preference, team needs, and how people believe hockey is best played. Karlsson would drive someone like Hitch crazy, but Laviolette would love him. It really comes down to hockey philosophies.
What's so hilarious is that this same debate went on ad infinitum in the 80s between Coffey and Bourque supporters.

It also comes down to "paying your dues".

When Niedermayer beat out Chara for the Norris, everyone talked about "career achievement" as if that's some kind of criterion for the Norris.

In short, the criteria is whatever the voters decide to apply in any given circumstance.

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Old
10-25-2012, 03:18 PM
  #38
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Karlsson-Pietrangelo-Doughty

I think all of these defensemen are great and are elite. However, I think Karlsson has the best POTENTIAL out of them.

Obviously, Karlsson is such an exceptional offensive player. But he has some underrated defensive abilities. He was kinda weak defensively until last year when he put on some muscle and worked on his defensive game.

Karlsson has made great strides into becoming a premier defenseman.
Yes, he will never be an intimidating defenseman like Pronger. But hey, Lidstrom, Pietrangelo aren't either.
Yes, he doesn't kill penalties because if he did, he would play over 35 min knowing Ottawa is one of the most penalized teams in NHL (3rd) and Ottawa desperately needs him on Even Strenght. It is strictly a coaching decision.

Truly, Karlsson's game is all about offense but his defense comes from his offensive abilities:
Breaking off a breakaway chance with his speed,
Stripping the puck from an opposing player then start the offense right away,
Block a scoring chance then fly the other way,


Finally, Pietrangelo will be an amazing defenseman (Lidstrom caliber) and Doughty will be himself (Great Defenseman) but Karlsson is something special. Karlsson may not be the best DEFENSEman but he is the most effective. He give his team whereverand whenever he's on the ice the chance to win.

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Old
10-25-2012, 03:21 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laundryman View Post
It has nothing to do with Karlsson being bad. I know that he's a great player. I just think Doughty and Pietrangelo are more well rounded, better players.
Karlsson just absolutely dominated Giroux head to head last year... so yeah

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10-25-2012, 03:22 PM
  #40
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Doughty:

Olympics, Stanley Cup, bear of a man, extremely consistent.
He'll never reach the offensive peak of a Karlsson but he's there game in and game out, can have occasional offensive outbursts, just a workhorse.

Pieterangelo:

Extremely steady two-way play, still a little green though. He'll likely never be that great offensively and will need to "grow" into his body/ability, more of a long-term project but quite a catch for the Blues.

Karlsson:

Mr. Offense. Great passing, offensive instincts and recovery ability. Unfortunately lets forwards open in front of his own net and has a tendency to overdo it at times. If he can trim down his offensive instincts somewhat will be formidable for years to come.

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10-25-2012, 03:25 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
Doughty:

Olympics, Stanley Cup, bear of a man, extremely consistent.
He'll never reach the offensive peak of a Karlsson but he's there game in and game out, can have occasional offensive outbursts, just a workhorse.

Pieterangelo:

Extremely steady two-way play, still a little green though. He'll likely never be that great offensively and will need to "grow" into his body/ability, more of a long-term project but quite a catch for the Blues.

Karlsson:

Mr. Offense. Great passing, offensive instincts and recovery ability. Unfortunately lets forwards open in front of his own net and has a tendency to overdo it at times. If he can trim down his offensive instincts somewhat will be formidable for years to come.
sorry but all 3 descriptions are off

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10-25-2012, 03:27 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
You're just going to have to accept the fact that a lot of people don't think Karlsson deserved to win the Norris.

Some people even go so far as to say his winning sullies the prestige of the trophy for future recipients.

But to be fair, people used to slam Coffey all the time too. Especially Ray Bourque fans.

It really comes down to preference, team needs, and how people believe hockey is best played. Karlsson would drive someone like Hitch crazy, but Laviolette would love him. It really comes down to hockey philosophies.
Thank you.

Apparently around here you dont have the right to think for yourself and prefer your own players.

So much black/white thinking on here its ridiculous.

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10-25-2012, 03:30 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
Karlsson:

Mr. Offense. Great passing, offensive instincts and recovery ability. Unfortunately lets forwards open in front of his own net and has a tendency to overdo it at times. If he can trim down his offensive instincts somewhat will be formidable for years to come.
Not necessarily a flaw. There's no way he can manhandle them like a traditional defenceman, so he simply positions himself to intercept passes and rebounds, instead.

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10-25-2012, 03:31 PM
  #44
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I'll take the one with the Norris trophy.

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10-25-2012, 03:32 PM
  #45
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People seriously think Doughty and Petro are 30 points better defensively than Karlsson? So if you switched Doughty for Karlsson or Petro for Karlsson, the Kings and Blues would have given up MORE than 30 goals than they actually did? Insanity

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10-25-2012, 03:33 PM
  #46
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All three are very close right now I'd go Karlsson, Doughty, then Pietrangelo. That said I feel it won't be long before Pietrangelo is number one, and the other two are fighting for the number two spot.

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10-25-2012, 03:33 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post

Pieterangelo:

Extremely steady two-way play, still a little green though. He'll likely never be that great offensively and will need to "grow" into his body/ability, more of a long-term project but quite a catch for the Blues.
I couldn't disagree with you more.

Contrary to current perceptions of Pietrangelo, when he was drafted, people questioned his defensive capabilities. Not his offensive.

How is he green? He plays some of the best defensive hockey in the NHL and he did so while putting up over 50 points.

Long term project? He is 22 years old and already widely regarded as a top 5ish dman in the NHL. He is the best player on his team (which is why the kings targeted him), he dominates the flow of the game in all 3 zones, he plays virtually mistake free hockey and does so while still putting up fantastic offensive numbers. He is everything a #1 dman is supposed to be. The only thing one could argue he lacks is physicality and aggression.

Your evaluations of him are head scratching.

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10-25-2012, 03:53 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
I couldn't disagree with you more.

Contrary to current perceptions of Pietrangelo, when he was drafted, people questioned his defensive capabilities. Not his offensive.

How is he green? He plays some of the best defensive hockey in the NHL and he did so while putting up over 50 points.

Long term project? He is 22 years old and already widely regarded as a top 5ish dman in the NHL. He is the best player on his team (which is why the kings targeted him), he dominates the flow of the game in all 3 zones, he plays virtually mistake free hockey and does so while still putting up fantastic offensive numbers. He is everything a #1 dman is supposed to be. The only thing one could argue he lacks is physicality and aggression.

Your evaluations of him are head scratching.
From what I've seen in the endless Karlsson-Pietro threads Pietro's team seemed to perform better defensively when he was off the ice and he's "green" (they all are, really) in that he hasn't been playing for a long, long time. He has played two full seasons so let's not pretend he is a seasoned NHLer. I like Pietrangelo but give Karlsson the offensive edge (obviously) but I give Alex the edge defensively and give Doughty the overall edge.
It's baffling to think that a 22-year old male is either fully developped physically, mentally or from a positioning/leadership/zonal standpoint.


In the first Karlsson vs. Pietrangelo thread:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1073807&page=2

bluesfan94:
"Pietrangelo's offensive game is being suppressed due to his having to play with an offensive defenseman in Colaiacovo, and the poor play of the power play and the forwards as a whole. If you were to pair Pietrangelo with someone more defensively responsible, I'd expect him to hit around 45-55 pts a year at a minimum. Karlsson will be around 60-70 pts a year consistently, but won't have quite the effect in the defensive zone compared to Pietrangelo"

Can Alex carry a PP on his own? Needs to be seen.
Can he handle consistent playoff tilts? Needs to be seen.

In his favour he did have one of the higher Rel QoC on the team among defensemen.

ALso need to remember the "Hitchcock Effect" that makes a team look much, much, much better defensively in the first few years, then wears off. Will be interesting to see how he evolves. Just as Karlsson might never hit those totals again, which is why I'm not overly excited about him atm.

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Old
10-25-2012, 03:55 PM
  #49
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1. Norris
2. Boy wonder
3. Should have won the Conn smythe

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10-25-2012, 04:02 PM
  #50
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not a single member of the PHWA has called pietrangelo the best defenseman in the NHL.

66 gave that nod to karlsson last year.
15 gave that nod to doughty a couple of years ago.

there's a clear #3 in this group until he proves more.

Choosing between doughty and karlsson is tough for me. Some days i am blinded by just how mind-numbingly insane karlsson was last year. Then i remember, it was only one year, and doughty, though he's never reached that high a level, does have a better overall track record. Today i choose doughty over karlsson.

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