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The 2012-2013 NHL Lockout Discussion Thread

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Old
10-19-2012, 08:27 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
OH WOW!!!!

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...nhlpa-coup-cox

On Thursday, he walked into a significant meeting with several NHL owners 90 minutes late, plopped down two single sheets of paper, each with a different skeleton proposal to the owners that didn’t include any ideas on systemic issues, then verbally delivered a third proposal with no accompanying paperwork. For all three proposals, he acknowledged to the owners he hadn’t actually “run the numbers.”
This from the leader of a union in a $3 billion business.
It looks like the players, via Fehr, aren't negotiating in good faith. Zach Parise wants to cry about rollback on his contract (even after a 10 mil signing bonus) yet Fehr shows up with the equivalent of 'the dog ate it' while we're talking about billions at stake.

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Originally Posted by RemoAZ View Post
What % do the players get if they miss the whole season?
Nothing. They don't get paid. Services not rendered. Too bad their mortgages, car payments and whatnot don't have lockouts as well. I know we like to think of them as multi-millionaires, but the vast majority are not making 5 mil+ a year like someone pointed out on the main board. At this point, the players are fretting over a clause that reduces existing contracts. It only really affects a small percentage of the high paid guys.

And, I'm sorry, but what the **** do guys like Stajan, Ference etc... know about billion dollar businesses? The answer is very little. It's pretty telling that 30 owners, each with their own market conditions, concerns and desires, can pool together relatively quickly to establish an offer. It takes the players all summer to kick the can a few inches. Most teams are mere toys to their owners. They got to where they are because they've made a fortune somehow. Odds are, they know how to grow the business better than the players. I could see the 43% offer as an attempt to railroad the players. That's a pretty big cut from what they were getting before (which was insane, if you look at the numbers). But you add a few expansion teams, continue the growth and suddenly 43% of 50%+ greater revenues looks awfully nice. The owners need to *grow* the NHL. It's not a fully saturated sport like the NFL where percentage points actually mean something.

At this point, the players are just in the way. The irony is that if they had just stopped for a moment and realized that growth helps them too, the game would be so much better off. We wouldn't be talking about a lost season, potentially another and the dark ages of hockey. These morons would be making several fold more, with more job security. Right now, they are getting paid NOTHING and risking it all for the sake of a 3-4% 'raise' from what the owners tabled, which was actually a pretty fair deal.

Imagine a world where the owners got everything they wanted, instantly, without the last lockout. Odds are revenue is higher, everyone is happy and this negotiation goes well enough to avoid a stoppage. But because the players got bent over (after playing chicken with their own money) they feel the need to 'hold the line' this go-round.

What a joke.

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Old
10-20-2012, 02:12 AM
  #202
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There was a time when the owners got everything they wanted. It was back before the 50's and the NHLPA; a time when players got punished for organizing and when a team owned a player's contract rights until they retired or were traded. It was a time when the All-Star games were held to support a recently retired player because the players earned so little that they had to get summer jobs and even then couldn't support themselves into retirement.

The owners isn't some huge benelovent force and this naivete regarding them that surrounds this forum is kind of telling of something...

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10-20-2012, 02:14 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
Right now, they are getting paid NOTHING and risking it all for the sake of a 3-4% 'raise' from what the owners tabled, which was actually a pretty fair deal.
That was my point. Any % of zero is still zero. Even if they get the 3 or 4% by holding out for the season, they aren't going to make up a whole season of salary by the end of their career. The owners on the other hand can look at it a lot farther down the road to decide whether it makes sense or not. Take the 50/50 and get back on the damn ice!

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10-20-2012, 10:41 AM
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutkowski View Post
There was a time when the owners got everything they wanted. It was back before the 50's and the NHLPA; a time when players got punished for organizing and when a team owned a player's contract rights until they retired or were traded. It was a time when the All-Star games were held to support a recently retired player because the players earned so little that they had to get summer jobs and even then couldn't support themselves into retirement.

The owners isn't some huge benelovent force and this naivete regarding them that surrounds this forum is kind of telling of something...

You are correct, years ago the pendulum was definitely swinging in the favor of ownership, but the NHLPA seems to think they have some right to have it swing in theirs. A swing in the middle would seem fair, until one takes an intelligent look at just who are the financial risk takers in all of this.

Unions etc. should be there to make sure there is not the kind of injustice that you've pointed out, not to dictate how ownership should do business.

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10-20-2012, 10:47 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
At this point, the players are just in the way. The irony is that if they had just stopped for a moment and realized that growth helps them too, the game would be so much better off. We wouldn't be talking about a lost season, potentially another and the dark ages of hockey. These morons would be making several fold more, with more job security.
Another irony is that the NHLPA's first proposal seemed to understand this, but went to far in the final season of said offer. I'm seeing the players for the gullible fools that once hung on Goodenows words the same way they now hang on Fehr's.

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10-20-2012, 10:50 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by AP View Post
The players brought into him based on his track record with MLB and the fact that the previous NHLPA President had sold out the players by letting the NHL get the salary cap they wanted.
The thought process of the players is a no brainer, but it doesn't make the players any smarter. For one thing I would not agree that they were "sold out".

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10-20-2012, 12:04 PM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutkowski View Post

The owners isn't some huge benelovent force and this naivete regarding them that surrounds this forum is kind of telling of something...
Newsflash; pro sports have changed slightly in the past 60 years. Pointing to a time when being in the NHL wasn't a full time profession doesn't hold much water when modern day players are arguing over 3-4% of $3+ billion. The notion that the owners would somehow be able to destroy the union so thoroughly that guys would be willing to play for peanuts is laughable.

The owners may not be benevolent, but they absolutely need revenues to grow. It puts money in their pockets and helps franchise values rise across the board. That's the name of the game. It just so happens that growing the game, in all aspects, greatly benefits the players too. What a shocker. Threatening another lost season over 3-4% does not. It's absolutely stupid.

The NHL pays players what the market will bare. It's not worth it to fret over 5% or so. Not when revenues can grow by double that in a very short period. Things like UFA age, max contract length and arbitration rights are far and away more important. Those little details happen to be the most flexible as well as having the biggest impact on the lives of players. If the players were smart, they'd take the 50/50 offer or even cough up more in exchange for everything else they want.

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10-20-2012, 12:56 PM
  #208
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I made more as a high school advisor this year than sixteen NHL clubs made. The San Jose Sharks failed to turn a profit despite selling out every single home game. The players love to talk about record revenues but conveniently fail to acknowledge record cost. The labor cost in the NHL is exorbitantly high relative to the popularity and ultimately the profitability of the vast majority of it's franchises. A 50/50 split of HRR is ridiculously generous to the players in my opinion. The last NHL proposal was just incredibly generous, in my opinion.

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Old
10-20-2012, 02:04 PM
  #209
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Sometimes I wonder if Donald Fehr advised the players for a very very long time to hold on to their cash and be prepared for a very long lockout. Then I wonder if that doesn't matter as it seems the league is willing to lockout for 2 or 3 years or more before caving into to such very high demands.

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10-20-2012, 06:33 PM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RemoAZ View Post
That was my point. Any % of zero is still zero. Even if they get the 3 or 4% by holding out for the season, they aren't going to make up a whole season of salary by the end of their career. The owners on the other hand can look at it a lot farther down the road to decide whether it makes sense or not. Take the 50/50 and get back on the damn ice!
...and if you look at the whole picture, and take into account the last lost season, the money played over an entire season is greater than any money you may gain in increase % that you may gain from winning in the lock out of an entire season. What really annoys me is all the rhetoric before negotiations started, all the talk about both sides agreeing to start the season while on-going talks resume. Both sides seem to expect a lock out before the negotiations started.

SO, I guess, the owners don't want the players to play and the players don't care enough to negotiate in good faith, maybe they should disband the league and start all over... Bring back the WHL!!! yes, I'm a frustrated fan...

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Old
10-22-2012, 03:16 PM
  #211
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Some lockout distraction for you all:

http://www.vancouvergiants.com/uploa...20Oct%2020.mp3

Rick Knickle was an intermission guest during a recent Vancouver Giants game, he talked about his role as a scout, as well as prospects Jordan Martinook, Kale Kessy, and former Yote Gilbert Brule. Pretty decent, albeit short short interview

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10-22-2012, 08:17 PM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt View Post
What's the name of that basement bar where they have live music? I saw some super sketchy punk band, blacked out and got into a fight that I don't remember last time I was there. Oh to be 21 years old. Haha.
If you mean the one on the row under the hotel St. Michaels it's gone by a few different names over the years, but it's closed now sadly enough... I had alot of fun in that place!

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10-22-2012, 09:36 PM
  #213
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If you mean the one on the row under the hotel St. Michaels it's gone by a few different names over the years, but it's closed now sadly enough... I had alot of fun in that place!
That's probably the one.

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Old
10-25-2012, 02:56 PM
  #214
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NHL plans to withdraw proposal

Quote:
While Daly would not say exactly, it's expected the NHL will cancel games for all of November on Friday.

The Winter Classic and All-Star Game are not expected to be part of that announcement, although they could be axed as early as next week.
http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/85...eadline-passes

Looks like I will have lots of time to do this:


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10-25-2012, 03:31 PM
  #215
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Owners going nuclear. Dark times.

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10-25-2012, 03:40 PM
  #216
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Thank goodness there are other things going on as well.
World Series(Go Giants!)
Football
The NBA Season(Go Lakers!)
Non-NHL Hockey

Life goes on!

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10-25-2012, 04:14 PM
  #217
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Every time a player or player rep mentions the concessions they made LAST TIME, I want to throw up. I can't believe how ****ing petty they are being. The current negotiations reek of the nhlpa holding a grudge. Pathetic.

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10-25-2012, 04:15 PM
  #218
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By the way, anyone who has ever accused Gary Bettman of being smug, condescending and generally unlikeable has never heard Ron Hainsey speak.

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Old
10-25-2012, 04:20 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by AP View Post
Thank goodness there are other things going on as well.
World Series(Go Giants!)
Football
The NBA Season(Go Lakers!)
Non-NHL Hockey

Life goes on!
World Series, no thanks. I hate the Giants.

Football, that's 3 days a week, and Thursday I have to wait forever to get to it. Pass.

NBA Season, the NBA isn't that fun to watch. I care more about College Basketball these days. I can't wait for that to start back up to be honest. Pac-12 network is going to be showing a crap ton of basketball.

Non-NHL Hockey - I like reading up on our boys in the farm, but I don't watch it, it's never on TV except the rare game of Ovechkin and what he's doing over seas.

With no hockey, life just isn't as fun lol.

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10-25-2012, 04:21 PM
  #220
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One thing I don't like about the lockout talk is that most of it either comes from a Pro-Business or Pro-Union spin that underminds the real facts both in the small and big picture.

At the rate things are going now, even when we get a new CBA in place, once that expires, we are going to be back in another lockout again with both sides spewing the crap over and over and over and over again.

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10-25-2012, 04:24 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by awfulwaffle View Post
World Series, no thanks. I hate the Giants.

Football, that's 3 days a week, and Thursday I have to wait forever to get to it. Pass.

NBA Season, the NBA isn't that fun to watch. I care more about College Basketball these days. I can't wait for that to start back up to be honest. Pac-12 network is going to be showing a crap ton of basketball.

Non-NHL Hockey - I like reading up on our boys in the farm, but I don't watch it, it's never on TV except the rare game of Ovechkin and what he's doing over seas.

With no hockey, life just isn't as fun lol.
There are millions of other things one can do. I just didn't want to make a long list.
Beaches in California
California
Las Vegas
Grand Canyon
Travel the world
Go play a hockey game or 2 or any other sport for that matter.

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10-25-2012, 04:47 PM
  #222
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There are millions of other things one can do. I just didn't want to make a long list.
Beaches in California
California
Las Vegas
Grand Canyon
Travel the world
Go play a hockey game or 2 or any other sport for that matter.
I work 6 days a week, it's hard for me to do that stuff. I did go to the ASU/Oregon game though! FEAR THE FORK!

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10-25-2012, 04:57 PM
  #223
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Every time a player or player rep mentions the concessions they made LAST TIME, I want to throw up. I can't believe how ****ing petty they are being. The current negotiations reek of the nhlpa holding a grudge. Pathetic.
The owners have actual business acumen. You don't run a business by taking turns, arguing over who got what and what the players feel they 'deserve.'

They understand "Deserve's got nothing to do with it."


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10-25-2012, 05:02 PM
  #224
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The owners have actual business acumen. You don't run a business by taking turns, arguing over who got what and what the players feel they 'deserve.'

They understand "Deserve's got nothing to do with it."
Of course they do, they are businessmen! They got to where they are for the most part by being smart with their money, and running a successful business on the side.

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10-25-2012, 09:49 PM
  #225
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When it comes down to it, the owners are being just as equally greedy as the players, that's why there is no resolution. Anyone that blames one side over the other is drinking the koolaid. It takes at least one agreeable party to get a deal done, and we have none. The demands on both sides are understandable to a certain degree, but they are not directly tied.

I personally feel like the richest teams benefited the most from the past CBA. They got a huge reduction in payroll for the same product and collected a higher percentage of revenue compared to the pre-Cap era. The Cap was put in place to help the poorer teams, but it did the exact opposite. It's like letting rich people design tax policy, I'm sure they'll make it fair and beneficial to all parties (sarcasm).

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