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Karlsson vs. Doughty vs. Pietrangelo (without a twist)

View Poll Results: Who is the best defenceman (in order):
Karlsson-Pietro-Doughty 85 18.24%
Karlsson-Doughty-Pietro 75 16.09%
Pietro-Karlsson-Doughty 70 15.02%
Pietro-Doughty-Karlsson 76 16.31%
Doughty-Karlsson-Pietro 57 12.23%
Doughty-Pietro-Karlsson 103 22.10%
Voters: 466. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-25-2012, 07:04 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
KPD

can't argue with the Norris and although people quickly point out Karlsson's defensive play (which isn't that bad) they neglect to mention the vastly superior offensive ability and his overall impact on the Sens.

It really depends for me how Doughty plays this season (hopefully there is one) to see if he can keep his playoff play up and prove it wasn't a hot streak.

Pietroangelo is well-rounded, safe, and a great defenseman and I am certain will be an amazing player for the foreseeable future. I think he's less of a risk than doughty and therefore will take him at #2
Karlsson is NOT vastly superior offensively. He plays in a different conference and a different role on his team. As I mentioned in a previous thread, he would be eaten alive playing in the Western Conference against bigger stronger players like Getzlaf, Thornton, Kopitar, Benn, Backes etc.

Question for any Sens fans... What type of numbers do you think Karlsson would put up in a Ken Hitchcock system? or a Terry Murray/Sutter system? What kind of numbers do you think Pavel Datsyuk would put up if he was basically told: "don't worry about defense, or winning- just go score!"?

Alex Pietrangelo scored 51! points under Hitch while anchoring one of the top defensive teams in the league and one of the top teams overall. That's very impressive. Should we even compare his defensive abilities to Karlsson?

Sorry if these factor into my evaluation of your golden boy but didn't with the Norris voters. He's a great offensive defenseman with plenty of time to refine his game and grow into his frame. I don't follow the Caps too closely but it seems like Mike Green has tried to round out his game (at the expense of huge offensive numbers) over the last couple seasons and I have a lot of respect for that. Hopefully Karlsson follows suit. But until then he's not really comparable with Doughty, Pietrangelo, Chara, Weber etc. despite what Sens fans want so desperately to believe.

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Old
10-25-2012, 07:13 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Jebus View Post
Karlsson is NOT vastly superior offensively. He plays in a different conference and a different role on his team. As I mentioned in a previous thread, he would be eaten alive playing in the Western Conference against bigger stronger players like Getzlaf, Thornton, Kopitar, Benn, Backes etc.

Question for any Sens fans... What type of numbers do you think Karlsson would put up in a Ken Hitchcock system? or a Terry Murray/Sutter system? What kind of numbers do you think Pavel Datsyuk would put up if he was basically told: "don't worry about defense, or winning- just go score!"?

Alex Pietrangelo scored 51! points under Hitch while anchoring one of the top defensive teams in the league and one of the top teams overall. That's very impressive. Should we even compare his defensive abilities to Karlsson?

Sorry if these factor into my evaluation of your golden boy but didn't with the Norris voters. He's a great offensive defenseman with plenty of time to refine his game and grow into his frame. I don't follow the Caps too closely but it seems like Mike Green has tried to round out his game (at the expense of huge offensive numbers) over the last couple seasons and I have a lot of respect for that. Hopefully Karlsson follows suit. But until then he's not really comparable with Doughty, Pietrangelo, Chara, Weber etc. despite what Sens fans want so desperately to believe.

Like I said, the only reason he won is because they simply cannot ignore the point total.

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10-25-2012, 07:14 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by laundryman View Post
So because Karlsson outplayed a player on my team last year I'm supposed to disregard what I saw from Pietrangelo over the course of the season and what I saw from Doughty in the playoffs?

Alright then
You said: ''I just think Doughty and Pietrangelo are more well rounded, better players.''

Which certainly implies that Karlsson is not well rounded.

If Karlsson can completely shutdown Giroux and score 2 points per game, how can you not consider that well rounded?

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10-25-2012, 07:21 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebus View Post
Karlsson is NOT vastly superior offensively. He plays in a different conference and a different role on his team. As I mentioned in a previous thread, he would be eaten alive playing in the Western Conference against bigger stronger players like Getzlaf, Thornton, Kopitar, Benn, Backes etc.

Question for any Sens fans... What type of numbers do you think Karlsson would put up in a Ken Hitchcock system? or a Terry Murray/Sutter system? What kind of numbers do you think Pavel Datsyuk would put up if he was basically told: "don't worry about defense, or winning- just go score!"?

Alex Pietrangelo scored 51! points under Hitch while anchoring one of the top defensive teams in the league and one of the top teams overall. That's very impressive. Should we even compare his defensive abilities to Karlsson?

Sorry if these factor into my evaluation of your golden boy but didn't with the Norris voters. He's a great offensive defenseman with plenty of time to refine his game and grow into his frame. I don't follow the Caps too closely but it seems like Mike Green has tried to round out his game (at the expense of huge offensive numbers) over the last couple seasons and I have a lot of respect for that. Hopefully Karlsson follows suit. But until then he's not really comparable with Doughty, Pietrangelo, Chara, Weber etc. despite what Sens fans want so desperately to believe.
I think the correct answer here is 120 points.

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10-25-2012, 07:25 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebus View Post
he would be eaten alive playing in the Western Conference against bigger stronger players like Getzlaf, Thornton, Kopitar, Benn, Backes etc.
One must watch Karlsson to appreciate how slick he is on either side of the rink. He plays defense his own way which uses speed and his tremendous skill work. They can protect the puck as much as they want but Karlsson will find a way to retrieve it.
Quote:
Question for any Sens fans... What type of numbers do you think Karlsson would put up in a Ken Hitchcock system? or a Terry Murray/Sutter system? What kind of numbers do you think Pavel Datsyuk would put up if he was basically told: "don't worry about defense, or winning- just go score!"?
As he didn't play this past season in the West, it's hard to say, however, when a player score almost 30 points more than Pietrangelo regardless of the conference, he is vastly offensively superior. D's don't get many points, having 10+ points than another dman is vastly superior, let alone 25+. What in particular do you not like about his d game, that he's undersized? The puck spends a lot of time on his stick, but he's a very safe player, he rarely pinches, and his speeds lets him get away with everything.
Quote:
Sorry if these factor into my evaluation of your golden boy but didn't with the Norris voters.He's a great offensive defenseman with plenty of time to refine his game and grow into his frame.
No offense, but this makes it seem like you don't watch Karlsson play. Our team was slated to be last in the league last year for a reason, Karlsson last season was undeniably outstanding.

A better poll of these three players would be which at their maximum potential would you want on your team.

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Old
10-25-2012, 07:25 PM
  #81
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Someone should make a poll of the Young Top 3 Left Handed defencemen! Voted for doughty-karlsson-pietrangelo, really close though.

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Old
10-25-2012, 07:28 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Security Guard Chang View Post
I think the correct answer here is 120 points.
In all seriousness, probably 65-70 points, while appearing much better defensively. There's no way anyone would say he's bad defensively.

Petro is helped a great deal by the system he plays in. Gets much more defensive help from his forwards.

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Old
10-25-2012, 07:53 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebus View Post
Karlsson is NOT vastly superior offensively. He plays in a different conference and a different role on his team. As I mentioned in a previous thread, he would be eaten alive playing in the Western Conference against bigger stronger players like Getzlaf, Thornton, Kopitar, Benn, Backes etc.

In 17 games against the Westerm conference this season, Karlsson has 4 goals and 10 assists good for 14 points. That's not what I call " be eaten alive ".

Question for any Sens fans... What type of numbers do you think Karlsson would put up in a Ken Hitchcock system? or a Terry Murray/Sutter system? What kind of numbers do you think Pavel Datsyuk would put up if he was basically told: "don't worry about defense, or winning- just go score!"?

His totals would without a doubt drop. But probably not by as much as you would think. Karlsson is smart, he knows when to jump in the play. Most of his points are just good and smart plays.. Like a good breakout pass, good shot from the point, ect. You rarely see him jump in the play when there's no one to cover him in defense. Just take a look at this video.. Most of the goals in it doesn't have much to do with the system Ottawa play :



Alex Pietrangelo scored 51! points under Hitch while anchoring one of the top defensive teams in the league and one of the top teams overall. That's very impressive. Should we even compare his defensive abilities to Karlsson?

It's indeed impressive.. Just not as impressive as Karlsson 78 points season IMO.

Sorry if these factor into my evaluation of your golden boy but didn't with the Norris voters. He's a great offensive defenseman with plenty of time to refine his game and grow into his frame. I don't follow the Caps too closely but it seems like Mike Green has tried to round out his game (at the expense of huge offensive numbers) over the last couple seasons and I have a lot of respect for that. Hopefully Karlsson follows suit. But until then he's not really comparable with Doughty, Pietrangelo, Chara, Weber etc. despite what Sens fans want so desperately to believe.
Answered in red.

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Old
10-25-2012, 07:56 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
In all seriousness, probably 65-70 points, while appearing much better defensively. There's no way anyone would say he's bad defensively.

Petro is helped a great deal by the system he plays in. Gets much more defensive help from his forwards.
You got it. Pietrangelo benefits from his system just as much as Karlsson benefits from his. Don't forget, Karlsson has to defend against Crosby, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Kovalchuk, Giroux, Malkin, Kessel. For as much scoring as the East does, that goes against Karlsson's defensive game as well. The top eight scorers in the NHL were from the Eastern Conference. The Western Conference didn't even have an 80+ point player for Pietrangelo and Doughty to defend against.

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Old
10-25-2012, 08:02 PM
  #85
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Lol, Karlsson is the best of the bunch and he'll only continue to be better defensively while I don't see the other guys peaking that much more offensively than what they already accomplished.

It's ok, guys, keep thinking he sucks defensively. It'll only catch you by surprise when he leads a shut-down to your top-lines followed by scoring the game-winning goal.

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Old
10-25-2012, 08:05 PM
  #86
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How many times do we need go round and round on this?

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Old
10-25-2012, 08:16 PM
  #87
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Karlsson is not a fourth forward or an offenseman. The reason Karlsson had so many points is because he has the incredible ability to pass the puck. He also excels into getting his shots through traffic.

I would rate Karlsson above of the two and the only one I would take over Karlsson is Pietrangelo because they don't play the same style and Pietrangelo is less risky. However, no excuses for Doughty who plays a similar game as Karlsson but is more physical like Letang.Their defense is almost equal. Only Doughty uses his physicality and Karlsson his puck skills

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10-25-2012, 08:36 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebus View Post
Karlsson is NOT vastly superior offensively. He plays in a different conference and a different role on his team. As I mentioned in a previous thread, he would be eaten alive playing in the Western Conference against bigger stronger players like Getzlaf, Thornton, Kopitar, Benn, Backes etc.

Question for any Sens fans... What type of numbers do you think Karlsson would put up in a Ken Hitchcock system? or a Terry Murray/Sutter system? What kind of numbers do you think Pavel Datsyuk would put up if he was basically told: "don't worry about defense, or winning- just go score!"?
.
It's halarius that you think offensively oriented player care less about winning then defensive players.

I would hope that if the Canucks got Karlsson we would reshape our offense to maximize his strengths. Teams like St Louis take the defense-first approach because it plays on their strengths. I think there was a poll not to long ago about systems and players and IMO a good coach will determine the strengths of his players and create a system around it.

Also, Karlsson is not a defensive liability, don't know why that is the popular stereotype of him.

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10-25-2012, 08:38 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
It's halarius that you think offensively oriented player care less about winning then defensive players.

I would hope that if the Canucks got Karlsson we would reshape our offense to maximize his strengths. Teams like St Louis take the defense-first approach because it plays on their strengths. I think there was a poll not to long ago about systems and players and IMO a good coach will determine the strengths of his players and create a system around it.

Also, Karlsson is not a defensive liability, don't know why that is the popular stereotype of him.
yep Karlsson is the player you build a system around

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10-25-2012, 09:03 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
It's halarius that you think offensively oriented player care less about winning then defensive players.

I would hope that if the Canucks got Karlsson we would reshape our offense to maximize his strengths. Teams like St Louis take the defense-first approach because it plays on their strengths. I think there was a poll not to long ago about systems and players and IMO a good coach will determine the strengths of his players and create a system around it.

Also, Karlsson is not a defensive liability, don't know why that is the popular stereotype of him.
Well said, he's not at the level of Chara or Weber defensively, but the attitude around these parts that he''s MUCH worse is insanity.

I know why people say it too. It's because they have a defenseman they also think is great and know that because Karlsson has a tangible 30 point offensive superiority over them, and they "know" (read: assume) their guy is better, well then Karlsson must be 30 points worse than them defensively which must mean he's considerably bad defensively.

It isn't true, but I'm quite certain that's how that belief has come to be accepted by the masses.

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Old
10-25-2012, 09:10 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Newfie9 View Post
Karlsson and Pietro will both have better careers than Doughty. Right now, Doughty is obviously going to get a lot of votes. Ask this is a couple years and I think it will be:

Pietro
Karlsson
Doughty
Both will have better careers than Doughty? ye its not like Doughty is the same age as them and already has a cup and Olympic gold under his belt

Doughty gets a lot of the votes because last year he faced tougher competition than the other 2, had better advanced stats than the other 2 even with the tougher competition, while starting over half of his shifts in the defensive zone. Something which was huge in the Kings winning the cup

The main reason why he only scored 36 points is because the Kings had a hilariously low shooting % when he was on the ice (6.2%) and he had a equally laughably low PDO of 986. I.E. Goalies went godmode when Doughty was on the ice

The Blues shot a hilariously low 6.8% with Pie on the ice making his 50 points super super super impressive. Especially when considering he also faced top competition and a lot of defensive zone starts

It helps Karlsson's point totals when he has a PDO of 1013 but he is still an exceptional talent. People can knock him for bad defence all they want, but a forward who can put up 70 points with bad defence is a very good player. So a defenceman putting up those numbers is even more impressive

Pie
Doughty/Karlsson

for me

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10-25-2012, 09:19 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Jebus View Post
Karlsson is NOT vastly superior offensively. He plays in a different conference and a different role on his team. As I mentioned in a previous thread, he would be eaten alive playing in the Western Conference against bigger stronger players like Getzlaf, Thornton, Kopitar, Benn, Backes etc.

Question for any Sens fans... What type of numbers do you think Karlsson would put up in a Ken Hitchcock system? or a Terry Murray/Sutter system? What kind of numbers do you think Pavel Datsyuk would put up if he was basically told: "don't worry about defense, or winning- just go score!"?

Alex Pietrangelo scored 51! points under Hitch while anchoring one of the top defensive teams in the league and one of the top teams overall. That's very impressive. Should we even compare his defensive abilities to Karlsson?

Sorry if these factor into my evaluation of your golden boy but didn't with the Norris voters. He's a great offensive defenseman with plenty of time to refine his game and grow into his frame. I don't follow the Caps too closely but it seems like Mike Green has tried to round out his game (at the expense of huge offensive numbers) over the last couple seasons and I have a lot of respect for that. Hopefully Karlsson follows suit. But until then he's not really comparable with Doughty, Pietrangelo, Chara, Weber etc. despite what Sens fans want so desperately to believe.
I'd say Karlsson was also way more valuable to his team than either Pietrangelo or Doughty were to there's.

Your talking as though you think Doughty and Pietrangelo would have had almost 80 points playing on Ottawa. I'm sure pretty much everyone will disagree.

And finally, I disagree with your point about Datsyuk. I think his focus on defense and getting the puck away from players contributes to his offense.

Anyways, Karlsson is kind of a weird player in that there's a whole bunch of people who think he's really good defensively, and a whole bunch of people who think he's absolutely terrible. I'm kind of inbetween. I'd say he's not exactly good defensively, but he can hold his own, and he's not as much of a wreck as some people say.

I also think that Doughty is getting pretty overrated. Especially defensively. I don't think he's as great as some people think he is.

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10-25-2012, 11:04 PM
  #93
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I would have to say Karlsson - Doughty - Pietrangelo for me at this very moment.

There's no way a Norris winner isn't first. Doughty just won a Cup (I know, it's a team thing, but he played a vital role). Pietrangelo is great, but he's accomplished much less than the other two in the previous season.

That being said, I envision in the near future it will be Pietrangelo - Doughty - Karlsson. This won't be a slight on Karlsson, but I still think Pietrangelo can be that great. Doughty struggled with contract issues and all that, but I think with this Cup win, he'll get right back on track to what he showed in his rookie season.

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10-25-2012, 11:11 PM
  #94
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Karlsson
Piertroangelo

Doughty

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Old
10-26-2012, 07:44 AM
  #95
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What's the point of all this.

Three 21 year old stud Dmen at the top of the game separated by very little except the level of bias an individual poster has. It's really not that hard, the guy you want most depends on what specific night you get him, or where you're team is lacking.

Karlsson was on for for the most goals for in the league last year, I'll be fine with that any day. And anyone that watches him play knows this is no fluke, his team is almost always playing offensively while he's on the ice, and he's the biggest catalyst to this. And while they're there, he's the one ripping anywhere from 5-10 shots a game on net. Yupo, there's a really ****ing obvious reason the Sens surprised last year.

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10-26-2012, 08:12 AM
  #96
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All 3 are phenomenal, so fans of their respective teams should just keep arguing trying to tell others that the dman on their team is better.

But pie is better than the rest ;p

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10-26-2012, 08:18 AM
  #97
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Ahh threads with Karlsson have become very predictable, it's actually quite amusing. People come in, from near and far, discussing the tales of how they think other Defensemen are better than Karlsson, some pointing out flaws in Karlsson's game that irk Sens fans. Said Sens fans swoop in to come to the mighty Karlsson's aid, posting facts, opinions, stats, and just about everything they can to disprove the seemingly anit-Karlsson group. From there it's a back and forth about opinions that make Sens fans seem to have the biggest hard-on for Karlsson and makes other fans appear to have a vendetta against Karlsson, trying ever so hard to prove other Dman are better (a hyperbole I'll admit but the point stands).

I may have disturbed the natural flow of these events, but please continue.
Winner

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10-26-2012, 08:30 AM
  #98
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Doughty-Karlsson-pietro


Personally I'm not nearly as high on Karlsson as most but you can't ignore the points over pietro. Doughty on the other hand... The guy was a beast as a rookie, one if the best d in Vancouver for Canada, great in the playoffs every year, solid at both ends... He's the clear #1 here in my mind

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10-26-2012, 09:27 AM
  #99
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PKD right now, but who knows where they'll go in the future.

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10-26-2012, 10:21 AM
  #100
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Petro Doughty Karlsson, voted on all around play, not just offensive flair.

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