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CBA / Lockout Discussion Thread (Update: player tested, owner approved)

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Old
10-22-2012, 05:48 PM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
It really is. You can run the numbers any way you want. The NHL offer based on percentage and HRR definition staying the same was more than a fair attempt to end this.

The other things were negotiable I'm sure and could have easily been agree upon.

I've done the math. This lockout should be over but Fehr and the lemming players are too stupid to realize it.

As a perfect example someone ran the numbers on a guy like Parise's contract. Under the NHL proposal he would have lost at MOST I think it was 2M dollars over the life of his contract. Poor Parise only getting 98M instead of 100M.
Why should Parise lose anything? He just signed the contract, so why should Minny be off the hook for any amount of that?

Yes, not currently being paid. Prorated contracts, etc., etc.

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10-22-2012, 07:11 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Felonious Python View Post
Why should Parise lose anything? He just signed the contract, so why should Minny be off the hook for any amount of that?

Yes, not currently being paid. Prorated contracts, etc., etc.
He signed the contract under the old CBA. He knew this. His agent knew this. The entire NHL community knew this. Once that CBA is no more, the contract is not binding until a new CBA is created, and then that contract is dependent on the new CBA laws.

Thats why.

Why do you think he wanted huge signing bonuses? Lockout protection and contract status protection.

And again, even if the contract wasnt dependent on the CBA laws, Im going to be pissed at the players that wont accept 8M a year instead of 9M a year to alleviate this lock out. Its a joke. I understand that the owners arent helping handing out these contracts, and rules need to be in the new CBA to combat that and frankly protect themselves from being able to do it just to compete with the huge markets. But the bottom line is... the lockout is over if like 15% of the players in the league will accept less than a million less over the course of their current contracts, and the ability of the league to pay some later rather than right away. But no.

Sorry I wont be crying over someone playing a game missing out on 2M of a 100M contract and complaining about just signing a contract he KNEW was going to be in doubt depending on the new CBA.

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10-22-2012, 07:12 PM
  #153
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“We want to play, we’re the ones who are doing the show in the NHL, but Bettman thinks it makes him. It is unfortunate that the NHL have such a guy. It’s a shame for the entire hockey world. Treats us like animals.”
David Krejci on Gary Bettman

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...-like-animals/

holy crap Krejci, overreact much?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
He signed the contract under the old CBA. He knew this. His agent knew this. The entire NHL community knew this. Once that CBA is no more, the contract is not binding until a new CBA is created, and then that contract is dependent on the new CBA laws.

Thats why.

Why do you think he wanted huge signing bonuses? Lockout protection and contract status protection.

And again, even if the contract wasnt dependent on the CBA laws, Im going to be pissed at the players that wont accept 8M a year instead of 9M a year to alleviate this lock out. Its a joke. I understand that the owners arent helping handing out these contracts, and rules need to be in the new CBA to combat that and frankly protect themselves from being able to do it just to compete with the huge markets. But the bottom line is... the lockout is over if like 15% of the players in the league will accept less than a million less over the course of their current contracts, and the ability of the league to pay some later rather than right away. But no.

Sorry I wont be crying over someone playing a game missing out on 2M of a 100M contract and complaining about just signing a contract he KNEW was going to be in doubt depending on the new CBA.
You make some valid points about the doubt going into a lockout, but a contract negotiation seems to be in bad faith when the owners turn around and try to knock some of that money off.

The players association also doesn't seem opposed to meeting the NHL at 50/50 in a few years, but they don't want to lose that 7% in one go, which I think is totally reasonable.


Last edited by Felonious Python: 10-22-2012 at 07:17 PM.
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Old
10-22-2012, 07:13 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Felonious Python View Post
David Krejci on Gary Bettman

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...-like-animals/

holy crap. overreact much?
Some expensive ass animals.

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10-23-2012, 08:54 AM
  #155
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10-23-2012, 10:02 AM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
And again, even if the contract wasnt dependent on the CBA laws, Im going to be pissed at the players that wont accept 8M a year instead of 9M a year to alleviate this lock out. Its a joke. I understand that the owners arent helping handing out these contracts, and rules need to be in the new CBA to combat that and frankly protect themselves from being able to do it just to compete with the huge markets. But the bottom line is... the lockout is over if like 15% of the players in the league will accept less than a million less over the course of their current contracts, and the ability of the league to pay some later rather than right away. But no.

Sorry I wont be crying over someone playing a game missing out on 2M of a 100M contract and complaining about just signing a contract he KNEW was going to be in doubt depending on the new CBA.
I think it's interesting that you use a pecuniary defense as to why the players are the greedy party in a lockout - not a strike - when almost all of their income is salary based, unlike the owners who are getting more money and at a lower percent of tax (most likely)

You can argue all day, but there's really no leg to stand on in the "why won't the players play for less for the poor owners" crowd

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10-23-2012, 08:29 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by turd ferguson View Post
I think it's interesting that you use a pecuniary defense as to why the players are the greedy party in a lockout - not a strike - when almost all of their income is salary based, unlike the owners who are getting more money and at a lower percent of tax (most likely)

You can argue all day, but there's really no leg to stand on in the "why won't the players play for less for the poor owners" crowd
Want to know what leg there is to stand on? Keep it very simple. No agreement means no NHL. No NHL means no job for 700+ players. Said players would have to disperse to other continents to continue playing. More than half wouldn't have a job playing professional hockey anywhere anymore. Most players have very little to fall back on.

No NHL for the owners means they have to find another investment, tax write off, toy. Nothing more nothing less.

That simple. Players need it to live, owners do not. Therefore owners hold all of the leverage. Period.

As for why players are being greedy compared to owners. Players have zero expenses, zero risk financially. The owners pay for all of that and lose money. Players don't lose money, they just don't get as much as get could have had the product made more. Players have health risks but they have fully paid for health care from the best doctors in the world. So yes owners should make more and players should make less just based on that. Frankly I think 50/50 is incredibly good for the players.

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10-23-2012, 09:38 PM
  #158
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Unless one side has a sudden change of heart, it appears collective bargaining agreement discussions between the NHL and the NHL Players' Association have reached a stalemate.

No meetings are scheduled and it doesn't appear as if there will be any scheduled in the immediate future.
Quote:
"They have made it clear to us that they have very little interest in the proposal we made last Tuesday," said Daly. "They also told us they have no intention of making a new proposal. I'm not sure what we would be meeting about."

When asked if the negotiations may slip into a deep freeze, Daly responded in a brief but very telling manner. "I suspect so," he said. "Back to the drawing board. Unfortunate."

Late Tuesday afternoon, the NHLPA conducted a conference call for executive board members and according to a union spokesman, following the call, the players informed the NHL they are willing to meet at any point, without preconditions, to try and reach an agreement.

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10-23-2012, 10:17 PM
  #159
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This ****ing lockout is ****ing ********.

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10-23-2012, 11:18 PM
  #160
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Is anyone else just getting numb? In a way it was kind of a blessing... I have a ton of real world stuff I need to do and don't have hockey as a distraction.

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10-24-2012, 07:45 AM
  #161
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http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...n-meeting.html

Quote:
"Most owners are not allowed to attend bargaining meetings," Fehr said. "No owners are allowed to speak to the media about the bargaining. It is interesting that they are secretly unleashed to talk to the players about the meetings the players can attend, but the owners cannot."
Why can't the owners attend bargaining meetings? Is it because many of them have experience with successfully negotiating deals, and that would make Gary look bad? Or because they aren't all pulling in the same direction?

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10-24-2012, 08:25 AM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
As for why players are being greedy compared to owners. Players have zero expenses, zero risk financially. The owners pay for all of that and lose money. Players don't lose money, they just don't get as much as get could have had the product made more. Players have health risks but they have fully paid for health care from the best doctors in the world. So yes owners should make more and players should make less just based on that. Frankly I think 50/50 is incredibly good for the players.
So you want the players to fold because they're going to lose anyway? I mean, I don't suppose you'll find anyone to disagree with you there, but this is a broad spectrum. The players will come out with less, yes, but the idea is that them not signing the worst of the offers, eventually they'll get a much more palatable offer.

I don't think the players can "win" either, but I do think that they can get the best deal possible.

It just comes off as selfish of you to ask that the players just go ahead and accept it already so that there will be hockey.

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10-24-2012, 08:32 AM
  #163
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Maybe I'm in the minority here, but the players are workers. What they do is labor.

They have to keep in shape and work hard to do so. Not to mention the toll on the body.

I mean, Stamkos eats organic popcorn. ORGANIC. Not even like the cool fair popcorn that comes in a big ball and when you ride on the rides the people make you set it down on the ground until you're done with the ride and it's still there but now it's kinda dirty but still tastes the same. No, he has to eat the stuff that tastes actually kinda like corn.

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10-25-2012, 07:45 AM
  #164
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Today would have been the day the Lightning played the Flames, and Tomorrow against the Oilers. I had planned on going to both games but now it is just a mini vacation visiting frinds who happen to live in Edmonton. which is not all that bad either as I have not seen some of them in several years.

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10-25-2012, 10:52 AM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
As for why players are being greedy compared to owners. Players have zero expenses, zero risk financially. The owners pay for all of that and lose money. Players don't lose money, they just don't get as much as get could have had the product made more. Players have health risks but they have fully paid for health care from the best doctors in the world. So yes owners should make more and players should make less just based on that. Frankly I think 50/50 is incredibly good for the players.


The issue isn't even 50/50, the issue is revenue distribution for struggling teams and honoring signed contracts.

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10-25-2012, 11:05 AM
  #166
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The issue isn't even 50/50, the issue is revenue distribution for struggling teams and honoring signed contracts.
Revenue distribution is something that the NHL needs to figure out. I don't see how it pertains to the CBA.

The issue is about the owners wanting the players to make less money than they currently are, and the thing that kicks my ass is that the players are essentially okay with that, but they want to meet the owners there in a few years.

I think the basis of the PA's stance of that they are willing to meet at 50%, at some point, in terms of negotiation means that they will accept that percentage. This should have become essentially a contract negotiation, but the league is locking them out for some reason instead of negotiating how they get there.


Last edited by Felonious Python: 10-25-2012 at 11:16 AM.
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10-25-2012, 08:43 PM
  #167
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Don't know if you guys saw the supposed AMA on ****** of some team executive... and I don't know if I buy it based on some of the responses... but it was interesting nonetheless.

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10-26-2012, 03:17 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
Don't know if you guys saw the supposed AMA on ****** of some team executive... and I don't know if I buy it based on some of the responses... but it was interesting nonetheless.
Link?

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10-26-2012, 04:39 PM
  #169
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I'm at the point of not giving a damn.

**** both sides.

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10-26-2012, 05:56 PM
  #170
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I'm almost scared that I'm so apathetic about missing hockey that I won't care when it comes back.

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10-26-2012, 06:34 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Still All In View Post


The issue isn't even 50/50, the issue is revenue distribution for struggling teams and honoring signed contracts.
Revenue distribution has zero to do with what the players are trying to get. Regardless of what they would like to tell you. So there goes that.

Honoring signed contracts...again they are honored based on CBA. That is professional sports. Deal with it. They are good for the life of a CBA and are changed based on the CBA that takes its place. Thats the fight right now, they want the same language in the CBA for their contracts. But lets look for just one second. The NHL offer basically said they would honor those contracts, minus about 2-5% of value. 2-5%. Think about that for a second. 98M instead of 100M. The players are tweeting their Ferraris and laughing about them being loud but wont play for a dollar less then the millions they already make. Give me a break.

Revenue sharing and distribution does need to be addressed. But thats really an issue that the team execs need to take care of with their side of the revenue. It has nothing to do with the players side of the revenue.

The players will NOT win this war. They wont do anything but lose millions of dollars, and years on their careers. Why do you think St Louis is so pissed off? Because he is close to his swan song and hes having another season wasted to this ********.

The NHLPA should have tweaked the NHL offer to change the UFA, ELC, etc things a little more back in their favor, maybe, maybe asked for 51/49 for the first couple of years or something and signed the damn deal. That deal was the fairest proposal brought to the table by either camp by far.

But no, Fehr is a ****ing idiot who wants the world because he doesnt give two ***** about the actual game of hockey and its fans.

I could go on forever, but I digress. This should have been over with. The NHLPA is the one who stopped it from being so with their idiocy on delinked HRR among other things.

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10-26-2012, 06:44 PM
  #172
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Tampa Bay Lightning Forward Martin St. Louis on NOV Cancelled, "If the fans think that the NHL wants to play. Think again."
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More St. Louis, "They don't want to meet and they cancelled all november. Way to go Gary you really care about the game!!"

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10-26-2012, 08:44 PM
  #173
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Oh snap. Marty's getting all political. I knew he was a PA guy from the first day of the lockout, when he turned his practice sweater inside out, but now he's made a statement.

Marty for player/commissioner! (can we get it changed back to league president while we're at it?)

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10-26-2012, 08:45 PM
  #174
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I'm almost scared that I'm so apathetic about missing hockey that I won't care when it comes back.
Can't say I don't feel the same way.

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10-27-2012, 09:41 AM
  #175
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I have a feeling that the league is going to use 'hunkering down' for Hurricane Sandy as a reason not to negotiate pretty soon.

John Buccigross:
Quote:
NHL sources tell me the NHL will cancel Winter Classic and All Star Game. Announcement presently scheduled for Monday.
https://twitter.com/Buccigross/statu...74811565899776

I'm certain this does not mean they will cancel the December-February games preceding the All-Star game, just the two events themselves.

How shocking is it that a Winter Classic involving Toronto gets canceled?

Random fact: The NHL's precondition to meeting the NHLPA for negotiations is that the league is insisting on having the meetings at Appomattox Court House.


Last edited by Felonious Python: 10-27-2012 at 10:34 AM.
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